How are these Great Beings explained?

[Dawnofhope]

Sorry. I forgot that you just interpret 'scripture' whichever way that suits the Bahai agenda. I was falsely assuming that since you say you accept scripture, you'd accept all of it, not just the parts that agree with Bahai. My bad. Poor memory.

The Baha'i agenda is simply following the teachings of Baha'u'llah. We accept the bible in its entirety, however it is open to a variety of interpretations. Jesus spoke in parables and there is much allegory in the telling of some stories. Naturally we will accept an interpretation that aligns with Baha'i belief rather than one that contradicts it. I think you know that.

 

[CG Didymus]

Very clear. Through the Holy Scriptures.

It would be too easy to use the Bible or the Quran, so let's look at the Hindu Scriptures and the Buddhist Scriptures. Since you believe it is the same God, then how is God described in those religions?

 

[CG Didymus]

I have read that the beast with the number 666 refers to Militant Islam which began in 666 AD with the Umayyad Ruler Muawiyah.

Pulling 666 out and setting thrones in Elam is too much like cherry-picking. What does it say about the Anti-Christ and the Beast and the Battle of Armageddon in context? Doesn't it lead right into Jesus coming in and destroying evil?

And Jeremiah has all kinds of judgements from God against it... then it says the thing about the throne. Is the "throne" in Elam? No, it's in Haifa, Israel.
But then what about the Holy City, Jerusalem? Mount Zion and that whole thing?

 

[CG Didymus]

The Baha'i agenda is simply following the teachings of Baha'u'llah. We accept the bible in its entirety, however it is open to a variety of interpretations. Jesus spoke in parables and there is much allegory in the telling of some stories. Naturally we will accept an interpretation that aligns with Baha'i belief rather than one that contradicts it. I think you know that.

Taking Bible things as allegory sure changes things. However, again, why are they presented as if that is spiritual reality? Specifically, the devil and his angels.

Easily, they can be explained as things borrowed from Pagan religions. But even Zoroastrians and Muslims have Satan/devil don't they? And isn't there a good and evil god in Zoroastrian beliefs? So they've been believed as true for thousands of years. It would have been nice to know those stories were only allegory.

But what if those concepts of an evil spirit being was borrowed from Pagans? Then how did it make its way into the different Holy Books? Unless, like I believe, people had a major role in making up these beliefs. Then, other religions took and built on those concepts. A devil or evil god sure makes it easier to explain why there's so much pain and suffering and all the other bad stuff.

 

[CG Didymus]

...Christianity is not an universalist faith. So, if all doesn't come through Christ without other prophets outside the Bible, one is not christian and does not hold christian teachings. Bahai disagree but their focus is different and doesn't correlate with christianity...

Baha'i often say Adam, Noah and Abraham are manifestations. But for Christians, Jesus is not like any other person in the Bible, not even Moses. And the Bible, as a whole, says nothing good about the religions of the other people around them. Christianity, I think, doesn't even have a positive view of Judaism. So it is so difficult for me to reconcile Baha'i teachings on the "oneness" of all religions with what I see in the world.

 

[CG Didymus]

I don't follow that interpretation. Hell to us means remoteness from God and heaven is nearness to God. So if you are near to God you are in a state of heaven not hell.

The Christian Hell sounds as remote from God as a person can get. Throw in a little fire and brimstone and your "remoteness" and their "Hell" is the same place.

But more important, where do all the people that are in between being good and bad go? And what about a Christian who has had all their sins washed away by the blood of Jesus? Do they get a higher place, even though in life they weren't perfect?

 

[CG Didymus]

Sorry. I forgot that you just interpret 'scripture' whichever way that suits the Bahai agenda. I was falsely assuming that since you say you accept scripture, you'd accept all of it, not just the parts that agree with Bahai. My bad. Poor memory.

Everything I read about Hinduism, it mentions reincarnation. I suppose it is well established in the Hindu Holy Books. Have the Baha'is shown you how this is an errant belief based on a faulty interpretation of the Hindu Scriptures?

 

[loverofhumanity]

Pulling 666 out and setting thrones in Elam is too much like cherry-picking. What does it say about the Anti-Christ and the Beast and the Battle of Armageddon in context? Doesn't it lead right into Jesus coming in and destroying evil?

And Jeremiah has all kinds of judgements from God against it... then it says the thing about the throne. Is the "throne" in Elam? No, it's in Haifa, Israel.
But then what about the Holy City, Jerusalem? Mount Zion and that whole thing?

The Manifestation of God was born in Iran and received His Revelation in Iran. Persia, Elam was and remains the birthplace of the Revelation of Baha'u'llah. God's 'throne' is His Manifestation.

"As a symbol of divine power and authority, it is frequently associated with God and his Messiah."( Zondervan Encyclopedia of the Bible)

The year 666 AD in history coincides with the year the rule of militant Islam began by the Umayyad Dynasty.

There's plenty of other prophecies referring to Mount Carmel.

 

[CG Didymus]

... How many of the Mosaic laws and customs do the Christians now practice...

What laws did Christianity institute to bring civilization to the next level? "Cause it seems like Jesus was telling people not to worry about this life. He even told one person to give away all his wealth. How practical is that? But, then again, I don't know that Jesus told anyone not to keep the Law... that was more of Paul's thing wasn't it?

So I see where Paul makes the Law meaningless, because it can't save a person. Getting saved is the all important thing in Christianity and to spread the "good news" that Jesus is coming back.... soon. Which he didn't. Even if you count Muhammad that wasn't for several hundred years. But, really, I don't wee how you count Muhammad as the return of Christ? And then, Baha'u'llah is another return of Christ. Oh boy.

Anyway, back to the Law. How different is the Mosaic Law as compared to Sharia Law and Baha'i Law? I would imagine that there are a lot of similarities. Those religions do have laws from God on how to deal with every day life situations, whereas Jesus didn't.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Taking Bible things as allegory sure changes things. However, again, why are they presented as if that is spiritual reality? Specifically, the devil and his angels.

Easily, they can be explained as things borrowed from Pagan religions. But even Zoroastrians and Muslims have Satan/devil don't they? And isn't there a good and evil god in Zoroastrian beliefs? So they've been believed as true for thousands of years. It would have been nice to know those stories were only allegory.

But what if those concepts of an evil spirit being was borrowed from Pagans? Then how did it make its way into the different Holy Books? Unless, like I believe, people had a major role in making up these beliefs. Then, other religions took and built on those concepts. A devil or evil god sure makes it easier to explain why there's so much pain and suffering and all the other bad stuff.

The time of captivity with the Persians and the influence of the Zoroastrians was arguably the greatest influence on Jewish though along with the influence of the Greeks and Romans. Zoroastrianism as I understand it emphasises this dualistic view of the universe with good/bad, angels/demons, and God/Satan. Its an attractively simplistic theology that as you highlight helps us to understand pain and suffering. It is hard to know as to what extent this was all taken literally at the time, and the capacity of the people to properly understand allegory and metaphor in a meaningful way. Its almost certain that ordinary people in times past just didn't have the same capacity for the kind of conversations we are having today.

 

[loverofhumanity]

The Christian Hell sounds as remote from God as a person can get. Throw in a little fire and brimstone and your "remoteness" and their "Hell" is the same place.

But more important, where do all the people that are in between being good and bad go? And what about a Christian who has had all their sins washed away by the blood of Jesus? Do they get a higher place, even though in life they weren't perfect?

We can't judge. we don't know for sure if a Christian or anyone's sins are washed away or not. God does as He pleases and He will be just with us all.

No one, not Baha'i nor Christian nor any non religionists can assume 100% we are saved or we are not saved.

We just don't know and assumptions are just assumptions.

 

[CG Didymus]

The Manifestation of God was born in Iran and received His Revelation in Iran. Persia, Elam was and remains the birthplace of the Revelation of Baha'u'llah. God's 'throne' is His Manifestation.

"As a symbol of divine power and authority, it is frequently associated with God and his Messiah."( Zondervan Encyclopedia of the Bible)

The year 666 AD in history coincides with the year the rule of militant Islam began by the Umayyad Dynasty.

There's plenty of other prophecies referring to Mount Carmel.

Is Elam all of Persia? It looks like Shiraz is in there. How about the other important Baha'i cities? And sure, you better tell me all about Haifa. But still, what about Jerusalem?

Also, Jeremiah said those things that God was going to do to Elam. You got to include that too. Did those things happen?

And 666 is the Beast, the number of a man and all that. I've never heard it used as a year. If it was then the Battle of Armageddon takes place and the return of Christ comes... after the Beast and Anti-Christ.

 

[loverofhumanity]

How do you feel compassionate for a murderer you want to be punished or find justice decided as his consequence?

That's like my saying to a homeless person. "I have compassion for you" and walk by him feeling an "umph" in my heart that I felt something and that is all I need. When compassion is the actual action of doing something for the homeless person. It means nothing without the action.

They are embedded in each other not the result of one another.

1st. You have to understand how action is embedded in compassion.

Once you understand that, then

2nd, you are further towards understanding how physical and spiritual co-exist.

and a bonus if you next understand how Catholics experience compassion via physical objects.

Right now, though, you can't feel compassionate for a murderer if there is no action that expresses your compassion. What you are doing is displaying sympathy not compassion nor is that unconditional love of any form. Many people feel sympathy and try to feel empathy for a murderer if they come out of their shell and see another person's shoes.

Not many people have compassion because they think it's a "feeling" that is somehow greater and they can't reach it.

Catholics go beyond just feeling. The action or charity is without reservation without justice.

Good example. Sex vs. Intimacy within a marriage.

When a couple has sex they are just exchanging their bodies with each other. It's not personal. It's just, well, sex.

Intimacy isn't just staring at each other in bed the day after the wedding. It's not just a feeling. It's an action. That joining between male and male, for example, consummated that marriage beyond just sex. That action is unconditional love, compassion, and inner love for that mate. It binds the two people together.

What you're saying is more of a platonic marriage where both spouses don't need to touch each other to love each other. Basically, both spouses can stand in separate closest in the dark and feel the love.

But what is that love they are feeling?

What is the definition behind that love if it is not consummated as many people feel marriage involves?

Action goes beyond the heart. While Bahaullah may dissect action from compassion, most religions, christianity included, do not. If you don't "get it" you won't understand how physical and spiritual go hand in hand not an expression of the other. One isn't "above" and the other "below."

The issue is, do you want to understand it from another person's perspective or continue to tell us yours?

I know what you're saying. You're saying we walk the spiritual path with practical feet. That the proof of our beliefs are in our deeds and actions. Of course I fully agree with that.

 

[CG Didymus]

The time of captivity with the Persians and the influence of the Zoroastrians was arguably the greatest influence on Jewish though along with the influence of the Greeks and Romans. Zoroastrianism as I understand it emphasises this dualistic view of the universe with good/bad, angels/demons, and God/Satan. Its an attractively simplistic theology that as you highlight helps us to understand pain and suffering. It is hard to know as to what extent this was all taken literally at the time, and the capacity of the people to properly understand allegory and metaphor in a meaningful way. Its almost certain that ordinary people in times past just did have the same capacity for the kind of conversations we are having today.

So if it is true that Judaism was influenced by these other cultures, then there's your progressiveness. One people borrows and adapts itself to new ideas... even spiritual ones. Like the Pure land Buddhists, to me, sound like they adopted some things from Christianity.

So what have Baha'is adopted from other cultures? Will a Baha'i Faith get mixed with a little bit of Zen and mutate into something else? Like Christians in the U.S. like to say that American was a based a lot on the Bible, but how much does it owe to the Greeks and Romans too? For me, too much of what caused an "ever advancing" civilization has to include non-religious ideas too... since religion has held people back sometimes.

You know like a cycle. Too much, too strict of religious beliefs has stifled people. Then they break free and go to far away from religion and get too "worldly." In fact, these are some very dark times we're living in. I think it's time for a new manifestation. Has it been long enough yet?

 

[CG Didymus]

We can't judge. we don't know for sure if a Christian or anyone's sins are washed away or not. God does as He pleases and He will be just with us all.

No one, not Baha'i nor Christian nor any non religionists can assume 100% we are saved or we are not saved.

We just don't know and assumptions are just assumptions.

Christian say Jesus promised, so they are 100% sure. They say it's in their Holy Book. But I'll bet you, they've gone and misinterpreted something again. So should we go tell them they're wrong?

 

[arthra]

Baha'i often say Adam, Noah and Abraham are manifestations. But for Christians, Jesus is not like any other person in the Bible, not even Moses. .....

I'm curious Didymus... How would you interpret the following verses from the Gospel of John?

5:44 How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only? 5:45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust.

5:46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me; for he wrote of me.

5:47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

(King James Bible, John)

 

[loverofhumanity]

Is Elam all of Persia? It looks like Shiraz is in there. How about the other important Baha'i cities? And sure, you better tell me all about Haifa. But still, what about Jerusalem?

Also, Jeremiah said those things that God was going to do to Elam. You got to include that too. Did those things happen?

And 666 is the Beast, the number of a man and all that. I've never heard it used as a year. If it was then the Battle of Armageddon takes place and the return of Christ comes... after the Beast and Anti-Christ.

Elam is where the Baha'i Faith began. It may have included Tehran as well as Baghdad.

Although the geographical limits of Elam changed through time, we shall consider the Elamite area at its greatest extent to have extended from Kermanshah province in the northwest to the eastern border of Fars in the southeast. For the sake of convenience we shall take as the region’s northern boundary the ‘Royal’ or ‘Great Khorassan’ Road leading from Baghdad in the west to Kermanshah, Kangavar and Hamadan (and eventually Qazvin and Tehran) in the east. (The Archeology of Elam)

Elam still has some prophecies to play out. We do believe eventually the Baha'is will be free and that Iran will have a Baha'i King but that is in the future.

The Battle if Armageddon as I understand it is the battle between good and evil which is still underway.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Christian say Jesus promised, so they are 100% sure. They say it's in their Holy Book. But I'll bet you, they've gone and misinterpreted something again. So should we go tell them they're wrong?

There are no guarantees given in any scripture that YOU are the one that is washed or saved. It just states the fact in general but then whether you or I pass the test in GOD's eyes is an entirely different thing.

No matter what verse they may quote they can't claim it applies to them simply because it's God's call whether it applies to them or not.

I may say I obeyed Baha'u'llah and so should be rewarded but God may disagree and find my assessment of myself totally out of whack and slam a dozen curses on me so to speak. God decides who's good or who's lived up to His teachings. We can only try and hope we will but to be presumptuous is foolish.

Christians have assumed they are saved but have rejected Christ's Second Coming??. So too with us Baha'is. There are NO guarantees just because we accept Baha'u'llah we are saved.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

You make it sound as if Baha'is are trying to stop other religionists following their traditions. We are not. For example we don't have communion in Baha'i meetings but we would never go to a church and tell parishioners they shouldn't take communion. If the Baha'i faith is from God, it will meet the spiritual needs of its adherents and those who come in contact with it. Eventually as Baha'is live in accordance with Baha'u'llah's teachings, they move away from old traditions. This is what happened for the Jews who became Christians. How many of the Mosaic laws and customs do the Christians now practice.

Jews still try to follow mosaic law as best they can. Hindu traditions have been around and practiced long before jews. Likewise with all catholicism and so forth.

When a bahai says he is christian because he shares the same belief as christians as he says he would have rights (after sacraments) to take the Eucharist. He would paricipate in catholic or other christian worship. Tradition protestant or catholic would be how he identifies. Bahaullah has no place in being a prophet and manifestation of god. But he wont know unless he steps from bahai interpretation and look only to christ and no one else.

To me, claiming that I am say Muslim because I for pretenx believe in the same creator and not practice Islamic belief, Im literally insulting muslim belief. One doesnt need to go to the church and physically take communion when one isnt christian. To me to identify as one religion and say youre another is totally wrong depending on the religion. It tears the heart of god.

But, yes, if you want to take away old outlawed traditions that you feel causes war like bahaullah says you have to get rid of the traditions and follow unity of love and compassion.

It sounds nice but to me its an insult. It is counterproductive.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I know what you're saying. You're saying we walk the spiritual path with practical feet. That the proof of our beliefs are in our deeds and actions. Of course I fully agree with that.

Im saying beliefs are deeds. Compassion is a deed. Love is a deed. When you pray to Mary or postrate to jesus, that action is love and is compassion. There is no "and" and deeds are not a result of love. It is love.

Actions are not a proof of love. Actions are love.

Understand?