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How are these Great Beings explained?

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
Any well meaning person can find peace with any other person. The only point I was making was that regardless of the conflicting creeds, races and nationalities within our ranks we are at peace.

But we are a world community not just a few well meaning people.
Way over 90% of this planet lives at peace with each other. Not exactly a few well meaning people. Please look at the world map to see all the places where there are NO wars.

Even in Bahai itself there is a lot of conflict. Unlike you (most likely prohibited) I can read the many internet sites on how and why people left Bahai. There are claims that the divorce rate is higher than in the general populace, etc. There is conflict, whether you want to turn a blind eye to it or not is up to you.
 
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loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
Direct contradiction. 1) People will never be compelled to give up their traditions. and
2) People will freely choose to have ONE faith.

This is totally contradictory. If people all choose to have one faith, by definition, some of them ARE giving up their traditions.

(I assume that one faith you are referring to is Bahai)

The Word compelled means they won't ever be compelled. They will CHOOSE to be Baha'is and choose to give up traditions they don't want. It's all voluntary.

People will never be compelled. It will always be their own choice to choose Bahá'í or not to choose it. I can still celebrate New Year and hristmas with my family. No big deal at all.
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
I'm talking about the unity of religion. Is there any other organization or religion which wants all religions to unite? I don't know of any one but the Baha'is but I may be wrong.

That's because many other religions don't want to unify. Humanity is much grander with diversity. You're taking milk, beer, fruit juice, coconut juice, lime juice, whiskey, mango juice, and mixing it into one unified super juice. That stuff would taste horrible.
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
They will CHOOSE to be Baha'is and choose to give up traditions they don't want. It's all voluntary.

Right now, more people are choosing to leave Bahai than to join it. I could never see many Hindus giving up all their rich mystical tradition, the colorful fascinating deeply philosophical ancient faith to join some watered down vague confused faith.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
Carlita. I love your audacity! So have no Prophets? Take out God too?

Describe for me what the Baha'i Faith should be like. I'd like to know what your idea would be of a 'good' Bahá'í Faith?

Haha. Thank you.

There is no "Bahai" Faith. No Hindu faith for that matter (sorry @Vinayaka ;)) I personally believe that individuals have their own spiritual freedom of expression which IS their actual faith and foundation. As I see many Catholics and Buddhist come together in their respective congregations and temple assemblies (and Muslims in prayer at my school and Hindu in Puka at a local Hindu temple), I am reminded that each person has their own spirituality and as each group are one family, like my family I don't expect my relations to be the same as, for example yours.

I believe in freedom of expression (for example, my art which I forgot to show you) and I don't care for prophet and monotheistic god faiths because it limits truth to one source.

I like @Vinayaka view of world peace, at it's closest foundation, mutual respect. World peace isn't under one ruler.

...and yes, no god. Why? Because there are many "gods". You have Vishnu, Orin, Gaia, Zues, and trying to think of others..but you have many gods. So, I can't limit "truth" if you like to one source. Not possible.

Many religions and people have wars not because they are just sitting and watching t.v. and then say "ooh, you know what! today I'm going to kill thousands of people then I'm going to go play some pool." No, a lot of times it's religious oppression, defensiveness, America being in everyone else's business, colonization that still happens today, and much more political reasons that are mixed with religious ones.

If everyone had mutual respect for each other as people and as a community and respecting each other's culture, beliefs, and traditions, then we are a step closer to world peace.

As long as we are separating people not just religiously but in every aspect of their lives, there will be no world peace. Also you cannot separate lesser world peace and greater.

For example, being part of the LGBTQ community is who I am both religious and otherwise. So, if you are saying that having equal rights for us is a lesser world peace, then that's literally saying because it's political and yo don't see the religious side of it, it's not as important as spirituality when everything we do is a part of our spirituality. We can't separate it. What we do reflects who we are as people.

We don't need the "prophet of this age" in order to see this. It's an individual (in American culture) or a family oriented situation and solutions are individual or as a group but none of the two should override each other by dictating one prophet and one god over religions that don't agree.

World peace has no one foundation.
 

InvestigateTruth

Veteran Member
That's a belief. It's alright to have it. The fact that Buddhism has no god, Hindu god is not the same as abrahamic, and christianity believes only christ as god's divinity not Moses, not Muhammad, and not Bahaullah puts a dead halt of any details such as prophecies these religions, to Bahai, may have in common.

I was reading @Vinayaka and @loverofhumanity conversation and pretty much as the same thing that it's like Bahai are picking at different details of the beliefs and finding similarities among the goals which they mistake for the foundations (my wording).

The very fact all these revealed religions themselves say that no other religion is like theirs (the abrahamic religions) is a huge difference (and somewhat more of a respectful stance) than saying we are all one and all the revealed religions come from the same source.

I respect people for expressing their differences than making me part of what they find in common with a selective group of people as if by making me a part of their group, makes me agree with their goals. Not everyone is like that.

The better Bahai understand this, the better.
Hi, my aim is not to say what is right or wrong, or what to believe, but rather provide factual information here.

The fact is, for example in Buddhism, there are many sects. Not all hold the same belief. There is a sect that has some sayings, regarding an infinite being, who does not have a beginning.
In general, Bahais believe, that the original Writings of Buddha does not exist. Our scriptures state that, Buddha, originally taught Oneness of God. So, this is what Bahais believe. If, the original Writings could existed today, and let's say, it did not talk about God at all, then we could question the Bahai Belief. But since it is impossible to prove that the original teachings of Buddha is available, we could not say, we have disproved what Bahai Scriptures says. Because we nees to be fair in our judgement.
Also, in Bahai view, the teachings of Quran, Bible and Bahai Faith are quite compatible, and many Muslims, Jews or Christians, who some of them were famous and knowledgeable Scholars, converted to Bahai Faith. What is the fact is, most people have not been converted, but obviously the numbers are not an indication of Truth. Notice that in History, sometimes nearly all people of earth had false beliefs. For example all believed the Sun rotated around the earth, or the earth was flat. My point is, just because a majority have not yet accepted Bahai Faith right now, is not a proof that this Faith is not the Relative Truth, revealed for this Age. In fact, in our days, in my view, most people are so busy with materialistic matters, that has kept them away from investigating the Faith of Bahaullah in details. My aim is not to blame, but tell you, what I believe, the reason is, for majority, to be unaware of it.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
I'm talking about the unity of religion. Is there any other organization or religion which wants all religions to unite? I don't know of any one but the Baha'is but I may be wrong.

Posts ago, I mentioned SGI. Can't remember if it was to you or Adrian. Soka Gokai International is a Nichiren Buddhist organization. Like Bahai, they have a central "prophet" or Bodhisattva named Nichiren Shonin. All inspiration of being buddhahood is in the Dharma represented in a scroll they chant to. The social side is they participate in international conferences, work with many grade schools to promote education, educating people about their faith (much like Bahai does), and are pretty much like Bahai, actually in regards to political views and how they mix with religious ones.
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
Way over 90% of this planet lives at peace with each other. Not exactly a few well meaning people. Please look at the world map to see all the places where there are NO wars.

Even in Bahai itself there is a lot of conflict. Unlike you (most likely prohibited) I can read the many internet sites on how and why people left Bahai. There are claims that the divorse rate is higher than in the general populace, etc. There is conflict, whether you want to turn a blind eye to it or not is up to you.

Thrn there's me who has been a Baha'i for 41 years and happily married to another Bahá'í for 39 years. She Burmese I'm Australian, we still can't speak each other's language fully. Why aren't we divorced?
 

InvestigateTruth

Veteran Member
"If Hadithes are compatable with Quran".......

Please as requested quote a verse of Quran with the verses in the context and then prove that a Hadith one wants to present is compatible with the verse of Quran and the context of the verses.
Regards
Sure. This is a wonderful Question and Request.

The proof is in these verses:

[Quran 6:38] We did not leave anything out of this Book.

[Quran 7:52] We have given them a scripture that is fully detailed, with knowledge, guidance, and mercy for the people who believe.



We Notice, everything is in the Quran. However, as Quran also says, in verse 3:7, some of its verses are Mutishabihat. Mutishabihat are those verses that are not clear, they include allusions, symbols, Metaphors, and also disconnected letters, because these verses are unclear what exactly they mean. However, according to Quran, those who are well grounded and firm in knowledge, who God has given Them the Knowledge, know its interpretation.

It is obvious, Muhammad and the Imams who God kept them pure and give them its knowlege know its interpretations, better than any ordinary believer, regardless if they are scholars even. No one can claim in Islam, they understand Quran better than Muhammad and those who are pure and well grounded in knowledge.

But as regards to your Question, that why we need to present each Hadith is compatible and originated from Quran.
It is because all details are in Quran. Thus, any True Hadith, must have its origin in the Quran. The only difference is, the Hadith makes those details of Quran more clear. But if a Hadith has not originated from Quran, it is a false Hadith, because as Quran says, it has all details.

Let me demonstrate what is meant by the aforementioned discussion, by the following example:

For example here is various translation of Quran 17:71,:

M. Pickthall:

On the day when We shall summon all men with their record, whoso is given his book in his right hand - such will read their book and they will not be wronged a shred.


Shakir:

(Remember) the day when We will call every people with their Imam; then whoever is given his book in his right hand, these shall read their book; and they shall not be dealt with a whit unjustly.


Yusuf Ali (Saudi Rev. 1985):

One day We shall call together all human beings with their (respective) Imams: those who are given their record in their right hand will read it (with pleasure), and they will not be dealt with unjustly in the least.


Dr. Laleh Bakhtiar :

On a Day when We will call to every clan with their leader, then, whoever was given his book in his right hand, those will recite their book and they will not be wronged in the least.



So, the various Muslims translators based on their imaginations, provided a different translation.
But if they had referred to the interpretations of Imam Sadiq, it would have been clear what this verse is about:



In Al-kafi, ‘Abdallah ibn Sinan narrated, "I asked abu ‘Abdallah (a.s.) about the meaning of , ‘On the day when We will call every nation with their Imam . . ." (17:71) The Imam (a.s.) said, "It refers to the Imam who is with them and he is Qa’im of the people of that time."


So, according to Imam Sadiq that verse is about Imam Qaim. But now we have to have another evidence from Prophet or Quran to validate the Authenticity of the Hadith of Sadiq. Here is a Hadith from Muhammad, as a witness:


With regards to this verse, it is recorded in the Book Mizanul Hikmat, In a tradition attributed to Prophet Muhammad, that He said, “He shall call all people to the Imam of their age with Book of God, and tradition of their prophet”


My intention here was to demonstrate that, the verses of Quran must be explained and interpreted by aid of recorded Traditions of Those who were Well Grounded in Knowledge. And those Recorded Traditions, in turn must have originated from the verses of Quran, and must have another witness from Quran and Traditions of Muhammad to make sure they are Authentic Hadithes. The Idea of having 'Witness', also originated from teachings of Quran. There are many verses that emphasizes on Having Witness for validity of different things, and here it is also applicable to determine the validity of Hadithes. So, what better Witness than Quran could there be, to demonstrate authenticity of a Hadith? Obviously, for believers, there is none!
 
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Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
Thrn there's me who has been a Baha'i for 41 years and happily married to another Bahá'í for 39 years. She Burmese I'm Australian, we still can't speak each other's language fully. Why aren't we divorced?

I'm happy for you. Our 42nd anniversary is coming in about 2 weeks. She has been a very patient woman.

Obviously not everyone gets divorced. I was just looking at Pew research's stats on divorce in faith communities, and they had Bahai above the national average, that's all. Means nothing on individual levels. But it also does say something about all this 'peace' the Bahais here go on about too.
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
Yes a few might. 5-10 million in the last 100 years. Only 7 billion more to go.

All the religions began with small numbers and only after centuries truly established themselves.

The numbers is not what's important. It's the happiness, peace and well being of humanity that is,

That's why I love the Hindu teaching of ahimsa because it's conducive to peace. But I want to see people not only looking out for their race, nationality or religion but humanity equally.

We may not have many wars but we do have $trllions of war budgets eating money that could be used to improve the life of the poor, educate people, provide employment and healthcare.

If there is no war why the $trilliins in war budgets? Is that good for humanity? We Baha'is want that money to be invested in people not arms.

Over decades we're looking at tens of $trillion spent on preparations for war. What about the poor and disabled and aged and just plain old people?

List of countries by military expenditures - Wikipedia
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
The fact is, for example in Buddhism, there are many sects. Not all hold the same belief. There is a sect that has some sayings, regarding an infinite being, who does not have a beginning. In general, Bahais believe, that the original Writings of Buddha does not exist. Our scriptures state that, Buddha, originally taught Oneness of God.

The Buddha's teachings were written by his disciples and followers from past to present. They are still preserved (even online if you like the link to over a hundred of them) and preserved in various schools of Buddhist thought and Dharma. There are only three schools in Buddhism Theravada, Mahayana, and Vajrayana. All three come from the same Dharma foundations of teaching about the nature of suffering, its cause, it's end, and how to end it. The Buddha's whole goal was to end suffering.

In Buddhism there is no god. Suffering is caused by delusions and attachments not because one is disunited and have no god. Ending suffering isn't about unity as in, say Catholic thought. Mahayana, ending suffering has to do with helping others understand the four truths in order to free themselves from suffering.

Bahai can believe whatever they want to but the fact that Buddhism doesn't teach that god has anything to do with ending suffering is a paramount difference from belief and fact.

Many people go off beliefs thinking they are facts. Others know they are beliefs and treat them as facts because their experience is so real they can't deny it as such. However, if I asked you to prove god as a fact, you can't do it without reflecting it on someone or something physical. If you didn't have people and earth to reflect god on, god has no description. How can you describe god as a fact when he has no characteristics of his own outside our human interpretations of "him" rather than it.

Whether you believe this or not isn't the point. I'm saying it is a fact that there is no god in Buddhism. There are many gods and one time The Buddha even challenged Maja, a creator, and proved him wrong because Maja was trying to lead The Buddha astray. He (The Buddha) convenience Maja that what he was believing was delusions and that in slang, "he wasn't fallin' for it." This is actually in a sutta rather than a person's interpretation of it.

Show me the fact that The Buddha believed in the Oneness of god.

There were many gods in Buddhas day. Most of which were Hindu gods. Not the Oneness of god. Buddhism is not a theistic faith.

So, this is what Bahais believe. If, the original Writings could existed today, and let's say, it did not talk about God at all, then we could question the Bahai Belief. But since it is impossible to prove that the original teachings of Buddha is available, we could not say, we have disproved what Bahai Scriptures says. Because we nees to be fair in our judgement.
Like most prophets, nothing is written down. It was orally passed down. That's why I value traditions that are still here today that are passed down orally. Writing it doesn't doesn't mean it's true.
Also, in Bahai view, the teachings of Quran, Bible and Bahai Faith are quite compatible, and many Muslims, Jews or Christians, who some of them were famous and knowledgeable Scholars, converted to Bahai Faith. What is the fact is, most people have not been converted, but obviously the numbers are not an indication of Truth. Notice that in History, sometimes nearly all people of earth had false beliefs. For example all believed the Sun rotated around the earth, or the earth was flat. My point is, just because a majority have not yet accepted Bahai Faith right now, is not a proof that this Faith is not the Relative Truth, revealed for this Age. In fact, in our days, in my view, most people are so busy with materialistic matters, that has kept them away from investigating the Faith of Bahaullah in details. My aim is not to blame, but tell you, what I believe, the reason is, for majority, to be unaware of it.
The Greek Philosophers helped with a lot of this. Christianity doesn't support Bahaullah being a manifestation of god. Muslim, so far I know, doesn't equate even Muhammad to god. Judaism doesn't even attempt to describe god.

All of what you say are from a bahai interpretation. Step from that and see it from Muslim, Christian, and Jewish shoes. Not Bahai Muslim. Plain Muslim.
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
That's because many other religions don't want to unify. Humanity is much grander with diversity. You're taking milk, beer, fruit juice, coconut juice, lime juice, whiskey, mango juice, and mixing it into one unified super juice. That stuff would taste horrible.

Only extracting the pure water here. Lol
 
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