How are these Great Beings explained?

[CG Didymus]

In my view Bahai Scriptures does not misrepresent the traditions of other religions, but rather renews the Truth that was misinterpreted and divided by humankind over thousands of years.

In Bahai View each of the Founders of great Religions Revealed the Truth for the People of Their Time. Let's for example talk about Buddhism. In my understanding, when Buddha appeared He revealed the Truth, and what is intended by Truth, in this context is a collection of statements, and teachings that came from the Mouth of Buddha. However, it was a different Time, so, He perhaps did not write His statements or teachings in a Book or Books, that collectively is the Truth. Instead these Information was Orally taught by Buddha to His followers. Had these followers been One and united, collectively had all the teachings of Buddha together, but Later on, these followers became divided, and thus each group had only a Portion of those teachings, or sayings of Buddha. So, overtime, because not all groups had all the teachings, they must have had lack of knowledge to completely understand Original Buddhism. Therefore each group added their own ideas and interpretations to their own portion of teachings of Buddha over thousands of years, and that is why we see, there are so many sects in Buddhism. So, which sect represents perfectly the teachings of Buddha?. In this sense, in my view, all of them have some portions of the words and Ideas of Buddha, plus many other things that were added later.
What I said about Buddha, is a classical way how sects of other Religions were created as well. This is somewhat similar to sects of Islam. Each sect has a portion of Recorded Traditions and a different interpretation of Quran.

So, now, in our view, what Bahaullah Taught includes that original elements of teachings of Buddha, Jesus, Krishna, Muhammad and other Manifestations, but because the Truth had always been divided into so many sects of Religions, it appears that, Bahai Faith has some of the teachings of each sects of religions. But, according to History, Bahaullah did not have any education in Religions. He did not have the Books of various Religions or sects to go and pick some from each. All those who witnessed Bahaullah have said that Bahaullah wrote His Books all directly from His mind. In fact in some case Bahaullah and the Bab, wrote a whole Book of about 200 pages or more in front of witnesses, within the space of a couple of days, and these Books are available. Bahaullah has written over 17000 works, and no body could fund or prove any errors in them, despite the fact that, many of the enemies of Bahai Faith, has gone through all these Writings, trying to prove there are mistakes in them to disprove infallibility of Bahaullah. Bahaullah, in order to teach people of His time, He had to frequently quote from Scriptures, histories and Traditions of Religions of the past, because the people of His time had such backgrounds, and these informations are scattered in literally thousands of pages. But Bahaullah did not study these, nore He had those books to read and quote from them. Instead, He just knew it all from His mind, without error. Just imagine, a person knows all verses of Quran, Bible, History of Religions and Hadithes or Recorded Traditions, without any trace of learning them. Now, because Bahaullah, lived about 150 years ago, there is a lot of history about Him. It is not like the case of Muhammad or Jesus, who lived long ago, with very little known about them. In case of Bahaullah, many historical events are verifiable.

On the other hand, Bahai Faith, does not try to validate or prove its truth by comparing the Religious Traditions of the Past, by its own Scriptures and demonstrating that they are the same. The proof of Bahai Faith is wholly based on capabilities of Bahaullah as a supper human, which is demonstrated throughout thousands of pages of history and Scriptures of Bahai Faith, which can only be known by investigating these writings gradually and Patiently.



See, if Bahais were trying to just get everyone into their Religion, by simply saying all of them are from same God, they would have perhaps included more people as Manifestations. But Manifestations, in our view, are Those who have innate knowledge. They know all things without studying. They promised of future Manifestations, and they were Promised by previous Manifestations.

So did the person who became known as the Buddha have innate knowledge? Did Moses ever have innate knowledge? Do Jews consider Moses a manifestation?

So all the religions that had an oral tradition before those traditions got written down are missing some of the original truth that was needed for the time?

If Baha'u'llah had innate knowledge he knew who the manifestations prior to recorded history were. Since you believe no people were without guidance from God, then who was the manifestation to the Chinese and their religion? Or, before Zoroaster, who was the manifestation to the Persians? I've asked several times about the Egyptian religion. Who was their manifestation?

How was Baha'u'llah at predicting the future? Did he prophecy about planes and cars and great cities with skyscrapers? I thought someone said that atomic bombs were alluded to. So what can you dig up?

 

[paarsurrey]

Sure. This is a wonderful Question and Request.

The proof is in these verses:

[Quran 6:38] We did not leave anything out of this Book.

[Quran 7:52] We have given them a scripture that is fully detailed, with knowledge, guidance, and mercy for the people who believe.



We Notice, everything is in the Quran. However, as Quran also says, in verse 3:7, some of its verses are Mutishabihat. Mutishabihat are those verses that are not clear, they include allusions, symbols, Metaphors, and also disconnected letters, because these verses are unclear what exactly they mean. However, according to Quran, those who are well grounded and firm in knowledge, who God has given Them the Knowledge, know its interpretation.

It is obvious, Muhammad and the Imams who God kept them pure and give them its knowlege know its interpretations, better than any ordinary believer, regardless if they are scholars even. No one can claim in Islam, they understand Quran better than Muhammad and those who are pure and well grounded in knowledge.

But as regards to your Question, that why we need to present each Hadith is compatible and originated from Quran.
It is because all details are in Quran. Thus, any True Hadith, must have its origin in the Quran. The only difference is, the Hadith makes those details of Quran more clear. But if a Hadith has not originated from Quran, it is a false Hadith, because as Quran says, it has all details.

Let me demonstrate what is meant by the aforementioned discussion, by the following example:

For example here is various translation of Quran 17:71,:

M. Pickthall:

On the day when We shall summon all men with their record, whoso is given his book in his right hand - such will read their book and they will not be wronged a shred.


Shakir:

(Remember) the day when We will call every people with their Imam; then whoever is given his book in his right hand, these shall read their book; and they shall not be dealt with a whit unjustly.


Yusuf Ali (Saudi Rev. 1985):

One day We shall call together all human beings with their (respective) Imams: those who are given their record in their right hand will read it (with pleasure), and they will not be dealt with unjustly in the least.


Dr. Laleh Bakhtiar :

On a Day when We will call to every clan with their leader, then, whoever was given his book in his right hand, those will recite their book and they will not be wronged in the least.



So, the various Muslims translators based on their imaginations, provided a different translation.
But if they had referred to the interpretations of Imam Sadiq, it would have been clear what this verse is about:



In Al-kafi, ‘Abdallah ibn Sinan narrated, "I asked abu ‘Abdallah (a.s.) about the meaning of , ‘On the day when We will call every nation with their Imam . . ." (17:71) The Imam (a.s.) said, "It refers to the Imam who is with them and he is Qa’im of the people of that time."


So, according to Imam Sadiq that verse is about Imam Qaim. But now we have to have another evidence from Prophet or Quran to validate the Authenticity of the Hadith of Sadiq. Here is a Hadith from Muhammad, as a witness:


With regards to this verse, it is recorded in the Book Mizanul Hikmat, In a tradition attributed to Prophet Muhammad, that He said, “He shall call all people to the Imam of their age with Book of God, and tradition of their prophet”


My intention here was to demonstrate that, the verses of Quran must be explained and interpreted by aid of recorded Traditions of Those who were Well Grounded in Knowledge. And those Recorded Traditions, in turn must have originated from the verses of Quran, and must have another witness from Quran and Traditions of Muhammad to make sure they are Authentic Hadithes. The Idea of having 'Witness', also originated from teachings of Quran. There are many verses that emphasizes on Having Witness for validity of different things, and here it is also applicable to determine the validity of Hadithes. So, what better Witness than Quran could there be, to demonstrate authenticity of a Hadith? Obviously, for believers, there is none!

"The proof is in these verses:
[Quran 6:38] We did not leave anything out of this Book."

Now, please provide the context verses, some preceding and some following. Then please the reason/argument that supports one's point of view. Please
Regards

 

[loverofhumanity]

I figure Boss has bad karma, married to me.

The blind men describing an elephant almost works here. If all the religions could see they were only describing part of the elephant and could then see the whole elephant, then it would work. But then we are not talking about blind men. We are talking about manifestations who know the truth of who and what God is.

Can a born-again Christian live side by side with anyone and not tell them their beliefs? They think you are deceived by Satan, are dead in your sins and need Jesus to be saved. Their God has a plan to convince everyone that he is God... Calamity.

But doesn't your religion predict a great upheaval also?

Despite their rhetoric, Christians are wonderful when it comes to helping people and serving humanity. The Red Cross, the Salvation Army have done so much for humanity.

I don't see the theological arguments as important but how we can all work together for the betterment of humanity as what we need to focus on.

Yes, Baha'u'llah speaks of a calamity likely man made.

We don't know what would be the calamity or when but it could be another war. There are many quotes about the calamity but here's a few however the end game is the last quote..

"After a time, all the governments on earth will change. Oppression will envelop the world. And following a universal convulsion, the sun of justice will rise from the horizon of the unseen realm" PDC

The world is in travail, and its agitation waxeth day by day. Its face is turned towards waywardness and unbelief. Such shall be its plight, that to disclose it now would not be meet and seemly. Its perversity will long continue. And when the appointed 119 hour is come, there shall suddenly appear that which shall cause the limbs of mankind to quake. Then, and only then, will the Divine Standard be unfurled, and the Nightingale of Paradise warble its melody. (Gleanings)

The end game......

“The whole earth," He, moreover, has stated, "is now in a state of pregnancy. The day is approaching when it will have yielded its noblest fruits, when from it will have sprung forth the loftiest trees, the most enchanting blossoms, the most heavenly blessings." "All nations and kindreds," 'Abdu'l-Bahá likewise has written, "...will become a single nation. Religious and sectarian antagonism, the hostility of races and peoples, and differences among nations, will be eliminated. All men will adhere to one religion, will have one common faith, will be blended into one race, and become a single people. All will dwell in one common fatherland, which is the planet itself.” Abdul-Bahá'í (PDC)

“The Promised Day Is Come.

 

[loverofhumanity]

They've already been lost or marginalized. Right now, what do you think of Jainism, Sikhism, and I asked what you thought of Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon.... True or not true?

At some point some beliefs are wrong. Their founder thought he/she was divine or a prophet, but didn't get much of a following, and are now forgotten. In a Baha'i World, who would need the religions of the past? Which sect of those religions will they study? The universal eternal spiritual laws? They can get those reading Baha'i books.

Right now, how much does an average Christian church-goer study the Talmud? Probably close to zero. How much to they study the OT? Very few. How much do they even get down and study their own book the NT? Probably still, not too much. The average church-goer probably only cracks open the Bible on Sunday at Church.

And why would that be? You've been telling us the reason from the beginning... It is irrelevant to today's world... Unless, you are a member of an Evangelical Church that promotes daily Bible study. And, believes we are living in the end times. They care a lot about what's going on and can show you how everything that is happening fits into all the predictions in the Bible. But one prediction they don't see... that Jesus has already returned. They look at the world and say, "No way, this isn't even close to the calamities prophesied. And it's not until after those happen that Jesus comes back."

Our position on Jainism, Sikhism and the Mormon Faith is that they each teach many truths and their followers are basically decent upright people. However we don't believe that they were founded by a Manifestation of God. The Mormons are basically a sect of Christianity with Christ as their Lord.

Some things we have in common with Sikhs...

Sikhism and the Bahá'í Faith

Jainism too has many beliefs we fully support

Bahai News - Striking a balance key to religion: Jainism will be explored as part of interfaith series

And the Mormons too..

“The Mormons are a people with high principles and ideals”

“They have many good principles, and their teachings regarding chastity, not drinking or smoking, etc., are quite similar to ours,”

“As for the status of Joseph Smith, founder of the Mormon Faith, he is not considered by Bahá’ís to be a prophet, minor or otherwise. But of course he was a religious teacher”

Excerpt From: Hornby. “Lights of Guidance.”

Prophecies of Joseph Smith regarding Baha'u'llah

The 1891 Prophecies of Joseph Smith FULFILLED in the Bahá'u'lláh

As you know spiritual laws like love and unity never are suoerceeded but elaborated upon and promoted further by subsequent Revelations. So Christ taught love thy neighbour, Muhammad love thy ummah or country and Baha'u'llah love all humanity, broadening the vision of love as humanity expanded. Now it's love all religions and religionists too. This is not abrogating love your own religion but to include the others as well.

Social laws such as stoning door adultery, cutting off of hands for stealing and holy war have all been abolished because we have matured and there are better ways of handling these problems now. We have corrective centers where people can be re educated so don't need to have their hands cut off.

Everything brought by God for this age is for our assistance not to take away anything that is good for us.

 

[loverofhumanity]

About a million posts ago I asked about some beliefs and traditions that are totally and completely wrong. My example was probably about a religion that sacrificed people to the god. So if an Aztec wanted to take, I assume a virgin, up the pyramid to the altar and cut out her heart, you'd be okay with that? No, I don't think so.

You and Adrian have native people in your area. I suppose some have become Baha'is. I can see them wearing native dress and doing some dances and you thinking how wonderful that is. But what about me, my Dad was from Mexico and I want to see some traditional Aztec religious ceremonies acted out. To do just the dances with the costumes? That's not the reality of what the religion was about. So no, some traditions were wrong, are wrong, and even you won't allow them to happen.

Yes true. What is harmful to anyone is forbidden to us not only as Baha'is but the law also. Things like slavery and other barbaric practices have gradually been abolished.

 

[loverofhumanity]

LGBTQ has nothing to do with homosexual behavior. @loverofhumanity mentioned there was a lesser peace (political peace that will come sometime later) and greater peace brought by Bahaullah.

One can't separate peace. What we do is a reflection of who we are. Who I am as an LGBTQ person is not what I do, it's who I am. So, I gave that example as loverofhumanity putting LGBTQ and other political rights in the lesser peace area when there is no lesser or greater, there is just peace.

To establish that, there is no one religious foundation Bahaullah, god, or otherwise. I can't see any logic by saying: "We respect diversity and to have greater peace, god must be the foundation and Bahaullah the promised prophet." It's literally saying "let's have diversity under my roof."

There is a lot of irony in what some Bahai are saying. I don't know if they see it though.

Carlita we've said again and again it doesn't have to be under our roof and we understand that it won't be. Peace will first be established by governments no us Baha'is and we will be over the moon with that. My heart will cry with joy if they abolish war.

Later, centuries later, IF and I say IF people want and choose, we will all become one religion.

Why do you think we are only a few million after 170 years? Because people haven't chosen our ways. Maybe one day they will. So the truth us we interfere with no one and leave it up to the people to choose.

It's for humanity to decide to accept or reject Baha'u'llah. That is their right and choice and we can't impose on that.

One religion only comes into effect IF the people of all Faiths WANTED and CHOSE it voluntarily.

Are you saying that the people of the world have no right to choose to unite and become one religion or are you just opposed to it?

What if people worldwide choose Baha'u'llah ?

 

[InvestigateTruth]

"The proof is in these verses:
[Quran 6:38] We did not leave anything out of this Book."

Now, please provide the context verses, some preceding and some following. Then please the reason/argument that supports one's point of view. Please
Regards

Please see this Links, below for the Recorded Traditions that explains it. It is in Arabic. But what that verse is about, according to the Recorded Traditions, in Quran all events are recorded up till Day of Resurrection, and also all things people need, such as Prohibitions and permissives are all in the Quran:

From Imam Reza(a.s):

عَنِ الرِّضَا (عليه السلام) فِي حَدِيثٍ طَوِيلٍ قَالَ: إِنَّ اللَّهَ لَمْ يَقْبِضْ نَبِيَّهُ حَتَّى أَكْمَلَ لَهُ الدِّينَ وَ أَنْزَلَ عَلَيْهِ الْقُرْآنَ، فِيهِ تِبْيَانُ كُلِّ شَيْءٍ، بَيَّنَ فِيهِ الْحَلَالَ وَ الْحَرَامَ وَ الْحُدُودَ وَ الْأَحْكَامَ وَ جَمِيعَ مَا يَحْتَاجُ النَّاسُ إِلَيْهِ كَمَلًا، فَقَالَ عَزَّ وَ جَلَّ: مٰا فَرَّطْنٰا فِي الْكِتٰابِ مِنْ شَيْءٍ وَ أَنْزَلَ عَلَيْهِ فِي حِجَّةِ الْوَدَاعِ وَ هِيَ آخِرُ عُمُرِهِ(صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَ آلِهِ): الْيَوْمَ أَكْمَلْتُ لَكُمْ دِينَكُمْ وَ أَتْمَمْتُ عَلَيْكُمْ نِعْمَتِي وَ رَضِيتُ لَكُمُ الْإِسْلٰامَ دِيناً وَ أَمْرُ الْإِمَامَةِ مِنْ تَمَامِ الدِّينِ، إِلَى أن قَالَ:

وَ مَا تَرَكَ شَيْئاً يَحْتَاجُ إِلَيْهِ الْأُمَّةُ إِلَّا بَيَّنَهُ، فَمَنْ زَعَمَ أَنَّ اللَّهَ لَمْ يُكْمِلْ دِينَهُ فَقَدْ رَدَّ كِتَابَ اللَّهِ وَ مَنْ رَدَّ كِتَابَ اللَّهِ فَهُوَ كَافِرٌ بِهِ.




کتابخانه مدرسه فقاهت - الفصول المهمة في أصول الأئمة - الحر العاملي"فرطنا_في_الکتاب_من_شی"

Also see here:

إن الله جل ذكره أنزل على نبيه كتابا بين فيه ما كان وما يكون إلى يوم القيامة في قوله : «ونزلنا عليك الكتاب تبيانا لكل شئ» [١] «وهدى وموعظة للمتقين» وفي قوله : «كل شئ أحصيناه في إمام مبين» [٢] وفي قوله : «وما فرطنا في الكتاب من شئ»[٣] وفي قوله : «وما من غائبة في السماء والارض إلا في كتاب مبين» [٤]



کتابخانه مدرسه فقاهت - بحار الأنوار - ط مؤسسةالوفاء - العلامة المجلسي"فرطنا_في_الکتاب_من_شی"

"Every beast that crawls on the earth and every birds that flies with its two wings have formed communities like you. We have left nothing out of the Book. Later, they will be gathered to their Lord. But those who deny Our verses are deaf and dumb within darknesses. Whomever Allah wills - He leaves astray; and whomever He wills - He puts him on a straight path." 6:38-39

 

[CG Didymus]

The Bible speaks of two different Lambs. One is Christ Who appears in the Gospels. The other Lamb only appears in Revelation which refers to The Bab.

Lambs, Two Different Ones.

This is some research I have done about the two different Lambs that exist in the Bible. One is Jesus but the other is not the same lamb in Revelation because the Lamb in Revelation is slain not crucified whereas the Lamb in the New Testament is crucified. The original language describes one lamb as Arnion and the other as Amnos.

The Lamb in Revelation is not the same Lamb in The New Testament

Young Ram or Arnion is the diminutive of arĒn/arnos meaning male sheep . Arnion is a word specific to Revelation.

All the prior New Testament Books use amnos ( Lamb ) or pascha ( Paschal Lamb ), both versions clearly portraying Jesus.

But now, suddenly, an arnion Ram runs onto the Revelation stage. It displays horns, anger, and leadership—all typical of rams, not lambs.

(Apocalyse Secrets)

Jesus's title is never Arnion Lamb

Jesus is NEVER referred to as an Arnion Lamb (Ram) ever in any Book. He is always referred to as the Amnos or Paschal Lamb.

Arnion Lamb is ONLY ever used in Revelation (25 times)

Noun: ἀρνίον (arnion), GK 768 (S 721), 30x. arnion refers to a “lamb” or young “sheep.”

All uses of this word except for Jn. 21:15, where Jesus refers to his followers as “lambs,” are in Revelation.

(Mounce's Complete Expository Dictionary)

arnion (ἀρνίον, 721)

It is used only by the apostle John, (a) in the plural, in the Lord’s command to Peter, John 21:15, with symbolic reference to young converts; (b) elsewhere, in the singular, in the Apocalypse, some 28 times, of Christ as the “Lamb” of God,

(Vines Complete Expository Dictionary)

Christ was crucified not slain.

Matthew 27:35 And they crucified him...

Mark 15:24. And when they had crucified him,.....

Luke 23:33. they crucified him,...

John 19:23. they had crucified Jesus,..

Crucified- Strong's Definition - g4717. σταυρόω stauroō; from 4716; to impale on the cross

Slain - Strong's definition - g4969. σφάζω sphazō; a primary verb; to butcher (especially an animal for food or in sacrifice) or (generally) to slaughter, or (specially), to maim (violently): — kill, slay, wound.

The Lamb in Revelation was not crucified but slain

Revelation 5:6

And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne ....stood a Lamb as it had been slain.....

Revelation 5:9

And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain.....

Revelation 5:12

Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain.......

So Who is the Arnion Lamb mentioned in Revelation that was slain not crucified? It was not Christ. But a Christ or One like Christ - The Bab.

The lamb in Revelation is a major player. I would have expected you to say he's Baha'u'llah himself and the Bab maybe Elijah. Which is still a problem because Elijah is not a manifestation. So I need a little more clarification of what you really believe. We have the Two Witnesses. We have the Lamb, who is Lord of Lords and King of Kings... and that is the Bab and not Baha'u'llah or like Christians say... Jesus?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

What if people worldwide choose Baha'u'llah ?

Even asking this question is proving my point. Why ask the question if you respect diversity? Why is Bahaullah important for other people to know in order to have a Greater peace?

Saying "if they want to choose" is like a christian telling me, "you know Jesus is the way. We are building towards world peace, diversity (yes, christians seek diversity as well), and the like with the guide and blessings of Jesus christ. In order to be unified (and saved) we all need to believe in jesus. However, you can choose to believe or not..."

If we don't choose Bahaullah, will there be greater world peace later on?

I remember you saying people will some day come to the Bahai faith.

It is alright to believe diversity under one roof. You are sending two different messages. One is saying you want diversity. The other is saying Bahaullah is the way to it since he was sent by god and all the manifestations are sent by god to say the same message that other religions do not agree with.

Mutual respect and understanding diversity isn't just "you can practice your traditions" it's more than that. No Bahaullah involved.

 

[loverofhumanity]

The lamb in Revelation is a major player. I would have expected you to say he's Baha'u'llah himself and the Bab maybe Elijah. Which is still a problem because Elijah is not a manifestation. So I need a little more clarification of what you really believe. We have the Two Witnesses. We have the Lamb, who is Lord of Lords and King of Kings... and that is the Bab and not Baha'u'llah or like Christians say... Jesus?

Which verses are you referring to?

 

[loverofhumanity]

Even asking this question is proving my point. Why ask the question if you respect diversity? Why is Bahaullah important for other people to know in order to have a Greater peace?

Saying "if they want to choose" is like a christian telling me, "you know Jesus is the way. We are building towards world peace, diversity (yes, christians seek diversity as well), and the like with the guide and blessings of Jesus christ. In order to be unified (and saved) we all need to believe in jesus. However, you can choose to believe or not..."

If we don't choose Bahaullah, will there be greater world peace later on?

I remember you saying people will some day come to the Bahai faith.

It is alright to believe diversity under one roof. You are sending two different messages. One is saying you want diversity. The other is saying Bahaullah is the way to it since he was sent by god and all the manifestations are sent by god to say the same message that other religions do not agree with.

Mutual respect and understanding diversity isn't just "you can practice your traditions" it's more than that. No Bahaullah involved.

According to Baha'u'llah the entire world will accept Him as the Promised One but still it will be their choice.

We only practice our laws for ourselves. They are not binding on anyone else.

You still haven't answered the question if people do see that Baha'u'llah is their Promised One and want their religions to become one are you against them having the freedom to choose their own destiny?

We give them that freedom to accept or reject. It looks like you are saying they must reject Baha'u'llah. But that's not your call it's theirs. We can't tell humanity what to do but you seem to bre saying they're not allowed to choose Baha'u'llah even if they want to.

You don't seem to have understood. If a Christian believes Baha'u'llah fulfills prophecies in His Bible then Baha'u'llah becomes a part of his belief not separate from it,

Millions of people so far accept that Baha'u'llah is the Promised Christ returned of the Bible somto them the Bible is even more true .

 

[Unveiled Artist]

According to Baha'u'llah the entire world will accept Him as the Promised One but still it will be their choice.

This is a contradiction. Either you want the world to accept Baha'u'llah or you want them to make a choice not to. You can't give them an ultimatum and expect people to come to Bahaullah regardless of their choices.

You can't build peace of people don't accept each other for who they are in their diversity. Another contradiction is if Bahaullah is giving people the choice to follow him, how can you establish world peace without him?

You still haven't answered the question if people do see that Baha'u'llah is their Promised One and want their religions to become one are you against them having the freedom to choose their own destiny?

No. They have the choice to not follow Bahaullah. My point is your religion gives an ultimatum just as christianity and other like prophet-religions do. It's a subtle way of saying "we have the truth but we aren't going to force it on you."

Hinduism, for example, does not teach Bahaullah is the promised one. That does not mean there cannot be a greater peace. Do you feel if people choose their own way forever without following Bahaullah at all can they come to world peace?

You don't seem to have understood. If a Christian believes Baha'u'llah fulfills prophecies in His Bible then Baha'u'llah becomes a part of his belief not separate from it,

Christianity/scripture does not support anyone having the divinity of god or connection with god as a manifestation other than christ. There is no Bahaullah and promised one in scripture other than the prophets and jesus christ himself.

A christian can believe whatever they want. The body of christ makes present jesus christ not revealed prophets outside of hebrew and NT scripture.

 

[loverofhumanity]

The lamb in Revelation is a major player. I would have expected you to say he's Baha'u'llah himself and the Bab maybe Elijah. Which is still a problem because Elijah is not a manifestation. So I need a little more clarification of what you really believe. We have the Two Witnesses. We have the Lamb, who is Lord of Lords and King of Kings... and that is the Bab and not Baha'u'llah or like Christians say... Jesus?

Let's not forget that Islam is also prophesied in the Book of Revelation.

“ By these two witnesses are intended Muḥammad the Messenger of God and ‘Alí'

: Bahá, Abdu’l. “Some Answered Questions

“These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.” ( Muhammad and Ali)

, Abdu’l. “Some Answered Questions.”

“and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and three-score days,”

Islam will last 1260 years. Now type in the 1260 Muslim Years into any Christian/Muslim calendar converter. What year do you get?

Calendar Converter

There is an entire chapter of the Book of Revelation referring to Muhammad and Ali, and Shiah and Sunni Islam.

The Bible is an amazing history book of events but people who can't understand it tend to either dismiss it entirely or weave superstitions around it.

So there are parts of Revelation prophesying Islam Shiah and Sunni, Prophet Muhammad and Ali and the Bab and Baha'u'llah.

Even the kingdoms Islam ruled over are mentioned with reference to the Caliphs.

 

[loverofhumanity]

This is a contradiction. Either you want the world to accept Baha'u'llah or you want them to make a choice not to. You can't give them an ultimatum and expect people to come to Bahaullah regardless of their choices.

You can't build peace of people don't accept each other for who they are in their diversity. Another contradiction is if Bahaullah is giving people the choice to follow him, how can you establish world peace without him?



No. They have the choice to not follow Bahaullah. My point is your religion gives an ultimatum just as christianity and other like prophet-religions do. It's a subtle way of saying "we have the truth but we aren't going to force it on you."

Hinduism, for example, does not teach Bahaullah is the promised one. That does not mean there cannot be a greater peace. Do you feel if people choose their own way forever without following Bahaullah at all can they come to world peace?



Christianity/scripture does not support anyone having the divinity of god or connection with god as a manifestation other than christ. There is no Bahaullah and promised one in scripture other than the prophets and jesus christ himself.

A christian can believe whatever they want. The body of christ makes present jesus christ not revealed prophets outside of hebrew and NT scripture.

There is no ultimatum from Baha'is but from Christ there is an ultimatum.It is their choice to reject or accept the claims of Baha'u'llah.

But Christ speaks of His return. That is part of their beliefs. So when Christ returns Christians, according to the Bible are commanded to 'Watch and pray' and accept Him when He comes.

Bahá'ís give no ultimatum. They only remind Christians of the ultimatum Christ gave them in their own Holy Book.

This ultimatum comes from Christ to His followers in the Gospels (not from Baha'is)

Luke 12:40

40 Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not.

2 Peter 3:4

there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, 4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming?

Christ said these Christians who turn away from His Second Coming shall be deemed by Him as unbelievers even though they call themselves Christians and it's Christ's religion so it's His judgement to make.

Luke 12 :45-46

45 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken; 46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.

According to th Gospels and Christ, it is the obligation and duty of every Christian to watch and pray for the return of Jesus and to accept Him when He comes. As nobody knows what He looks like He will be known by His fruits and teachings. And also in Revelation Christ says clearly He will come with a 'new name' not Christ.

 

[arthra]

So Baha'u'llah - being of noble status and receiving a princely education - would almost certainly have had access to books about all these religions - and probably much less so to information about the other religions that I mentioned.

Well you might be interested in knowing about the early education of Baha'u'llah:

According to the custom of that time, as the son of an influential government official, Bahá’u’lláh did not receive a formal education. Yet by the time He was fourteen, he became known for His learning. He would converse on any subject and solve any problem presented to him. In large gatherings he would explain intricate religious questions to the ulama (the leading religious figures in Islam), and they listened with great interest.

Bahá’u’lláh led a princely life as a young man, receiving an education that focused largely on calligraphy, horsemanship, classic poetry, and swordsmanship.

also see:

Birth and Childhood of Baha'u'llah

In the case of the Bab.. Siyyid Ali Muhammad Shirazi.. there was hardly formal education other than recitations of the Qur'an.

Childhood of the Bab | Prayer

 

[loverofhumanity]

The lamb in Revelation is a major player. I would have expected you to say he's Baha'u'llah himself and the Bab maybe Elijah. Which is still a problem because Elijah is not a manifestation. So I need a little more clarification of what you really believe. We have the Two Witnesses. We have the Lamb, who is Lord of Lords and King of Kings... and that is the Bab and not Baha'u'llah or like Christians say... Jesus?

Malachi 4:5 refers to the Bab

5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet
before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord

Revelation 11:14

14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly

Note that one is followed quickly by the other.

“The first woe was the advent of the Apostle of God, Muḥammad the son of ‘Abdu’lláh, peace be upon Him. The second woe was that of the Báb, upon Him be glory and praise. The third woe is the great Day of the advent of the Lord of Hosts and the revelation of the promised Beauty.

“This third woe is the day of the manifestation of Bahá’u’lláh”

Bahá, Abdu’l. “Some Answered Questions.”

See Quran also Two Trumpet Blasts indicating Two Manifestations

The trumpet will be sounded, when all that is in the heavens and the earth will swoon away, except such as it will please God to exempt. Then will a second one be sounded, when, behold, they will be standing and looking on!" (Qur'an 39:68)

There are beautiful prophecies in so many Holy Books regarding this Revelation. Things like the wolf and lamb will lie down together. Symbolic of antagonistic sects one day living side by side in peace.

All the Manifestations are true, all the Holy Books teach truth and goodness and the followers of all religions we consider as our brothers and sisters but we Baha'is are far from perfect. We fully acknowledge and accept that we have a lot to learn.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

There is no ultimatum from Baha'is but from Christ there is an ultimatum.It is their choice to reject or accept the claims of Baha'u'llah.

But Christ speaks of His return. That is part of their beliefs. So when Christ returns Christians, according to the Bible are commanded to 'Watch and pray' and accept Him when He comes.

Bahá'ís give no ultimatum. They only remind Christians of the ultimatum Christ gave them in their own Holy Book.

This ultimatum comes from Christ to His followers in the Gospels (not from Baha'is)

Luke 12:40

40 Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not.

2 Peter 3:4

there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, 4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming?

Christ said these Christians who turn away from His Second Coming shall be deemed by Him as unbelievers even though they call themselves Christians and it's Christ's religion so it's His judgement to make.

Luke 12 :45-46

45 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken; 46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.

According to th Gospels and Christ, it is the obligation and duty of every Christian to watch and pray for the return of Jesus and to accept Him when He comes. As nobody knows what He looks like He will be known by His fruits and teachings. And also in Revelation Christ says clearly He will come with a 'new name' not Christ.

All prophet religions give an ultimatum. Whether you agree with fact or not is up to the believer.

Bahai-christian is not a christian. Following christ teachings is not enough. "Anyone who loves their father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves their son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me." Mathew 10:37 There is no place for Bahaullah. Christ is said to return. No one else.

By saying "one day people will come to bahaullah" is already gving people an ultimatum. Instead say, "one day we will have greater peace within our own believes" WITHOUT other religions needing to be bahai and following bahaullah to do so.

The sooner you "understand" this the better and faster you will respect christian beliefs are not your own nor anyone else but those who ONLY identify as christian. Nothing elss.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Bahai-christian is not a christian. Following christ teachings is not enough. "Anyone who loves their father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves their son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me." Mathew 10:37 There is no place for Bahaullah. Christ is said to return. No one else.

Christ will have a new name.

Revelation 3:12
Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

He will not be the same physical Christ as Christ is Christos in Greek meaning Messiah or anointed one.

The only example of a returned prophet from the Old Testament is Elijah who returned as John the Baptist.

Malachi 4:5
Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord

Matthew 17:10-13
And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come?
And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things.
But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them.
Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist.

Recall that the Jews failed to recognise Christ as a fulfilment of their own scripture.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Christ will have a new name.

Revelation 3:12
Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

He will not be the same physical Christ as Christ is Christos in Greek meaning Messiah or anointed one.

The only example of a returned prophet from the Old Testament is Elijah who returned as John the Baptist.

Malachi 4:5
Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord

Matthew 17:10-13
And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come?
And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things.
But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them.
Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist.

Recall that the Jews failed to recognise Christ as a fulfilment of their own scripture.

I dont see how his relates. A bahai christian is not an christian. Christ told all to love him over all people because loving him, "christians do recognize him" they feel is loving his father.

How are jews not recognizing god have to relate to this? I actually gear more towards the jews in regards to not giving god a physical representation of him. That alone precludes jesus being the messiah. Everything jesus said is built on hebrew scriptures. The gospel hadnt even beem written yet.

Your verses does not speak of bahaullah nor mention his name as any prophet akin to god.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Your verses does not speak of bahaullah nor mention his name as any prophet akin to god.

Remember Baha'u'llah translated means Glory of God. Recall also that one of the names of Jesus was Immanuel which means God with us.

There a number of different Messianic titles in the OT.

The Glory of the Lord
The Glory of the god of Israel
The Lord of Hosts
The King of Glory
The everlasting Father and Prince of Peace
The Desire of all nations
The Branch

Some verses refer to one Messiah or the other, some refer to both, and some also refer to God.

Comfort ye, comfort ye my people, saith your God. Speak ye comfortably to Jerusalem, and cry unto her, that her warfare is accomplished, that her iniquity is pardoned: for she hath received of the Lord's hand double for all her sins. The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make straight in the desert a highway for our God. Every valley shall be exalted, and every mountain and hill shall be made low; and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough places plain: And the glory of the Lord shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together. Isaiah 40:1-5.

Afterward he brought me to the gate, even the gate that looketh toward the east:
And, behold, the glory of the God of Israel came from the way of the east: and his voice was like a noise of many waters: and the earth shined with his glory.
Ezekiel 43:1-2

Lift up your heads, O ye gates; even lift them up, ye everlasting doors; and the King of glory shall come in.
Who is this King of glory? The Lord of hosts, he is the King of glory. Selah.
Psalms 24:9-10

For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The might God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this. Isaiah 6-7.

And I will shake all nations, and the desire of all nations shall come: and I will fill this house with glory, saith the Lord of hosts.
Haggai 2:7

"And speak unto him, saying, Thus speaketh the LORD of hosts, saying, Behold the man whose name is The BRANCH; and he shall grow up out of his place, and he shall build the temple of the LORD: Even he shall build the temple of the LORD; and he shall bear the glory, and shall sit and rule upon his throne; and he shall be a priest upon his throne: and the counsel of peace shall be between them both." Zechariah 6:12-13

We need to consider each verse on a case by case basis to work out which ones speak about the Baha'u'llah (Glory of God), which speak about Jesus, and which refer to both.