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How are these Great Beings explained?

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
According to Baha'u'llah the entire world will accept Him as the Promised One but still it will be their choice.

I don't see how everyone choosing one religion is a necessity for world peace. So why in the world would anyone choose Bahai when all of those world peace projections of Bahai can be easily had without Bahai. All it takes is mutual respect, and nothing else?

If there ever was one religion, imagine all those wonderful traditions that would be lost. It would be like if human was the last animal on the planet. No other animals. So sad.
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
I dont see how his relates. A bahai christian is not an christian. Christ told all to love him over all people because loving him, "christians do recognize him" they feel is loving his father.

In one sense they are all labels and words.

How are jews not recognizing god have to relate to this?

It is history repeating itself. The Jews fail to recognise their messiah and then the Christians fail to recognise theirs.

I actually gear more towards the jews in regards to not giving god a physical representation of him. That alone precludes jesus being the messiah.

Jesus never directly said He was God.

Everything jesus said is built on hebrew scriptures. The gospel hadnt even beem written yet.

I agree.:)
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
Remember Baha'u'llah translated means Glory of God. Recall also that one of the names of Jesus was Immanuel which means God with us.

There a number of different Messianic titles in the OT.

The Glory of the Lord
The Glory of the god of Israel
The Lord of Hosts
The King of Glory
The everlasting Father and Prince of Peace
The Desire of all nations
The Branch

Some verses refer to one Messiah or the other, some refer to both, and some also refer to God.

Comfort ye, comfort ye my people, saith your God. Speak ye comfortably to Jerusalem, and cry unto her, that her warfare is accomplished, that her iniquity is pardoned: for she hath received of the Lord's hand double for all her sins. The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make straight in the desert a highway for our God. Every valley shall be exalted, and every mountain and hill shall be made low; and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough places plain: And the glory of the Lord shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together. Isaiah 40:1-5.

Afterward he brought me to the gate, even the gate that looketh toward the east:
And, behold, the glory of the God of Israel came from the way of the east: and his voice was like a noise of many waters: and the earth shined with his glory.
Ezekiel 43:1-2

Lift up your heads, O ye gates; even lift them up, ye everlasting doors; and the King of glory shall come in.
Who is this King of glory? The Lord of hosts, he is the King of glory. Selah.

Psalms 24:9-10

For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The might God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this. Isaiah 6-7.

And I will shake all nations, and the desire of all nations shall come: and I will fill this house with glory, saith the Lord of hosts.
Haggai 2:7

"And speak unto him, saying, Thus speaketh the LORD of hosts, saying, Behold the man whose name is The BRANCH; and he shall grow up out of his place, and he shall build the temple of the LORD: Even he shall build the temple of the LORD; and he shall bear the glory, and shall sit and rule upon his throne; and he shall be a priest upon his throne: and the counsel of peace shall be between them both." Zechariah 6:12-13

We need to consider each verse on a case by case basis to work out which ones speak about the Baha'u'llah (Glory of God), which speak about Jesus, and which refer to both.

Bahaullah is an actual human being. He, the human, is not in any scripture. Allah is god too and is in biblical scripture according to your logic. Allah as a reflection of muslim belief is not.

Bahaullah is not god.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
Edit. Also you dont have to qupte scripture. What Im saying is pretty basic. There is no other manefestation and prophet carrying gods last message but christ. Thats the whole gospels and the some.

It is history repeating itself. The Jews fail to recognise their messiah and then the Christians fail to recognise theirs.

Christians do recognize their messiah. As a christian, do you not recognize the messiah? If you dont believe jesus is the messiah, it makes no sense to quote him because no prophet speaks for god.

Jesus never directly said He was God.

I dont see the relation to my statement
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
All prophet religions give an ultimatum. Whether you agree with fact or not is up to the believer.

Bahai-christian is not a christian. Following christ teachings is not enough. "Anyone who loves their father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves their son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me." Mathew 10:37 There is no place for Bahaullah. Christ is said to return. No one else.

By saying "one day people will come to bahaullah" is already gving people an ultimatum. Instead say, "one day we will have greater peace within our own believes" WITHOUT other religions needing to be bahai and following bahaullah to do so.

The sooner you "understand" this the better and faster you will respect christian beliefs are not your own nor anyone else but those who ONLY identify as christian. Nothing elss.

Christ said that He will come with a new name. That means He won't be called the name Christ when He returns.

So He is telling His followers to accept Him when He comes with that new name.

How do you know that new name is not Baha'u'llah??
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
I don't see how everyone choosing one religion is a necessity for world peace. So why in the world would anyone choose Bahai when all of those world peace projections of Bahai can be easily had without Bahai. All it takes is mutual respect, and nothing else?

If there ever was one religion, imagine all those wonderful traditions that would be lost. It would be like if human was the last animal on the planet. No other animals. So sad.

As I said it's up to people to choose if they want to have one religion or fifty thousand.

We can have political peace or no war without one religion. If people will be happy with that then that's fine. If they're not and want something more then their religions can unite if they want to.

We haven't got world peace yet because people don't want it badly enough. So it's all up to people.
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
I don't see how everyone choosing one religion is a necessity for world peace. So why in the world would anyone choose Bahai when all of those world peace projections of Bahai can be easily had without Bahai. All it takes is mutual respect, and nothing else?

If there ever was one religion, imagine all those wonderful traditions that would be lost. It would be like if human was the last animal on the planet. No other animals. So sad.

You're concern is very legitimate as Baha'is don't want the world to lose its diversity just its conflicts. We seek unity in diversity not unity in uniformity so it's a very valid argument.
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
Sure. This is a wonderful Question and Request.

The proof is in these verses:

[Quran 6:38] We did not leave anything out of this Book.


[Quran 7:52] We have given them a scripture that is fully detailed, with knowledge, guidance, and mercy for the people who believe.



We Notice, everything is in the Quran. However, as Quran also says, in verse 3:7, some of its verses are Mutishabihat. Mutishabihat are those verses that are not clear, they include allusions, symbols, Metaphors, and also disconnected letters, because these verses are unclear what exactly they mean. However, according to Quran, those who are well grounded and firm in knowledge, who God has given Them the Knowledge, know its interpretation.

It is obvious, Muhammad and the Imams who God kept them pure and give them its knowlege know its interpretations, better than any ordinary believer, regardless if they are scholars even. No one can claim in Islam, they understand Quran better than Muhammad and those who are pure and well grounded in knowledge.

But as regards to your Question, that why we need to present each Hadith is compatible and originated from Quran.
It is because all details are in Quran. Thus, any True Hadith, must have its origin in the Quran. The only difference is, the Hadith makes those details of Quran more clear. But if a Hadith has not originated from Quran, it is a false Hadith, because as Quran says, it has all details.

Let me demonstrate what is meant by the aforementioned discussion, by the following example:

For example here is various translation of Quran 17:71,:

M. Pickthall:

On the day when We shall summon all men with their record, whoso is given his book in his right hand - such will read their book and they will not be wronged a shred.


Shakir:

(Remember) the day when We will call every people with their Imam; then whoever is given his book in his right hand, these shall read their book; and they shall not be dealt with a whit unjustly.


Yusuf Ali (Saudi Rev. 1985):

One day We shall call together all human beings with their (respective) Imams: those who are given their record in their right hand will read it (with pleasure), and they will not be dealt with unjustly in the least.


Dr. Laleh Bakhtiar :

On a Day when We will call to every clan with their leader, then, whoever was given his book in his right hand, those will recite their book and they will not be wronged in the least.



So, the various Muslims translators based on their imaginations, provided a different translation.
But if they had referred to the interpretations of Imam Sadiq, it would have been clear what this verse is about:



In Al-kafi, ‘Abdallah ibn Sinan narrated, "I asked abu ‘Abdallah (a.s.) about the meaning of , ‘On the day when We will call every nation with their Imam . . ." (17:71) The Imam (a.s.) said, "It refers to the Imam who is with them and he is Qa’im of the people of that time."


So, according to Imam Sadiq that verse is about Imam Qaim. But now we have to have another evidence from Prophet or Quran to validate the Authenticity of the Hadith of Sadiq. Here is a Hadith from Muhammad, as a witness:


With regards to this verse, it is recorded in the Book Mizanul Hikmat, In a tradition attributed to Prophet Muhammad, that He said, “He shall call all people to the Imam of their age with Book of God, and tradition of their prophet”


My intention here was to demonstrate that, the verses of Quran must be explained and interpreted by aid of recorded Traditions of Those who were Well Grounded in Knowledge. And those Recorded Traditions, in turn must have originated from the verses of Quran, and must have another witness from Quran and Traditions of Muhammad to make sure they are Authentic Hadithes. The Idea of having 'Witness', also originated from teachings of Quran. There are many verses that emphasizes on Having Witness for validity of different things, and here it is also applicable to determine the validity of Hadithes. So, what better Witness than Quran could there be, to demonstrate authenticity of a Hadith? Obviously, for believers, there is none!

"The proof is in these verses:
[Quran 6:38] We did not leave anything out of this Book."

Now, please provide the context verses, some preceding and some following. Then please the reason/argument that supports one's point of view. Please
Regards
Please see this Links, below for the Recorded Traditions that explains it. It is in Arabic. But what that verse is about, according to the Recorded Traditions, in Quran all events are recorded up till Day of Resurrection, and also all things people need, such as Prohibitions and permissives are all in the Quran:

From Imam Reza(a.s):

عَنِ الرِّضَا (عليه السلام) فِي حَدِيثٍ طَوِيلٍ قَالَ: إِنَّ اللَّهَ لَمْ يَقْبِضْ نَبِيَّهُ حَتَّى أَكْمَلَ لَهُ الدِّينَ وَ أَنْزَلَ عَلَيْهِ الْقُرْآنَ، فِيهِ تِبْيَانُ كُلِّ شَيْءٍ، بَيَّنَ فِيهِ الْحَلَالَ وَ الْحَرَامَ وَ الْحُدُودَ وَ الْأَحْكَامَ وَ جَمِيعَ مَا يَحْتَاجُ النَّاسُ إِلَيْهِ كَمَلًا، فَقَالَ عَزَّ وَ جَلَّ: مٰا فَرَّطْنٰا فِي الْكِتٰابِ مِنْ شَيْءٍ وَ أَنْزَلَ عَلَيْهِ فِي حِجَّةِ الْوَدَاعِ وَ هِيَ آخِرُ عُمُرِهِ(صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَ آلِهِ): الْيَوْمَ أَكْمَلْتُ لَكُمْ دِينَكُمْ وَ أَتْمَمْتُ عَلَيْكُمْ نِعْمَتِي وَ رَضِيتُ لَكُمُ الْإِسْلٰامَ دِيناً وَ أَمْرُ الْإِمَامَةِ مِنْ تَمَامِ الدِّينِ، إِلَى أن قَالَ:

وَ مَا تَرَكَ شَيْئاً يَحْتَاجُ إِلَيْهِ الْأُمَّةُ إِلَّا بَيَّنَهُ، فَمَنْ زَعَمَ أَنَّ اللَّهَ لَمْ يُكْمِلْ دِينَهُ فَقَدْ رَدَّ كِتَابَ اللَّهِ وَ مَنْ رَدَّ كِتَابَ اللَّهِ فَهُوَ كَافِرٌ بِهِ.




کتابخانه مدرسه فقاهت - الفصول المهمة في أصول الأئمة - الحر العاملي"فرطنا_في_الکتاب_من_شی"

Also see here:

إن الله جل ذكره أنزل على نبيه كتابا بين فيه ما كان وما يكون إلى يوم القيامة في قوله : «ونزلنا عليك الكتاب تبيانا لكل شئ» [١] «وهدى وموعظة للمتقين» وفي قوله : «كل شئ أحصيناه في إمام مبين» [٢] وفي قوله : «وما فرطنا في الكتاب من شئ»[٣] وفي قوله : «وما من غائبة في السماء والارض إلا في كتاب مبين» [٤]



کتابخانه مدرسه فقاهت - بحار الأنوار - ط مؤسسةالوفاء - العلامة المجلسي"فرطنا_في_الکتاب_من_شی"

"Every beast that crawls on the earth and every birds that flies with its two wings have formed communities like you. We have left nothing out of the Book. Later, they will be gathered to their Lord. But those who deny Our verses are deaf and dumb within darknesses. Whomever Allah wills - He leaves astray; and whomever He wills - He puts him on a straight path." 6:38-39

To make it convenient for one I give here (as one did not do it oneself despite requests) the verse in discussion with the context verses, some preceding and some following:

[6:34] We know full well that what they say verily grieves thee; for surely it is not thee that they charge with falsehood but it is the Signs of Allah that the evil-doers reject.
[6:35] And Messengers indeed have been rejected before thee; but notwithstanding their rejection and persecution they remained patient until Our help came to them. There is none that can change the words of Allah. And there have already come to thee tidings of past Messengers.
[6:36] And if their aversion is grievous to thee, then, if thou art able to seek a passage into the earth or a ladder unto heaven, and bring them a Sign, thou canst do so. And had Allah enforced His will, He could surely have brought them together into the guidance. So be thou not of those who lack knowledge.
[6:37] Only those can accept who listen. And as for the dead, Allah will raise them to life, then to Him shall they be brought back.
[6:38] And they say, ‘Why has not a Sign been sent down to him from his Lord?’ Say, ‘Surely, Allah has power to send down a Sign, but most of them do not know.’
[6:39] There is not an animal that crawls in the earth, nor a bird that flies on its two wings, but they are communities like you. We have left out nothing in the Book. Then to their Lord shall they be gathered together.
[6:40] Those who have rejected Our Signs are deaf and dumb, in utter darkness. Whom Allah wills He allows to perish and whom He wills He places on the right path.
[6:41] Say, ‘What think ye? If the punishment of Allah come upon you or there come upon you the Hour, will you call upon any other than Allah, if you are truthful?’
[6:42] Nay, but on Him alone will you call; then will He remove that which you call on Him to remove, if He please, and you will forget what you associate with Him.
[6:43] And indeed We sent Messengers to peoples before thee; then We afflicted them with poverty and adversity that they might humble themselves.
_____________

Now please give one's understanding of the verse from the context verses. Please don't quote from any other sources yet one could benefit from them but give here one's own argument/understanding in one's own words, Right? Please

Anybody, please

Regards
 
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Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
Christ said that He will come with a new name. That means He won't be called the name Christ when He returns.

So He is telling His followers to accept Him when He comes with that new name.

How do you know that new name is not Baha'u'llah??

His name can be jehosaphat.

The very nature of bahaullahs teachings and univeralism precludes him from being the promised one.

Thats like saying since allah means god, muslims have the same god as christians and jews.

Jews would not place christ at a divinity level.

Christians wont downplay jesus to follow the laws of the jews

Muslims wont equate christ to god nor would they beoieve the quran is equal to the bible in terms of authority and practice.

The meanings of names mean nothing if the character and plan of who carries that name conflict with another of the same meaning.

Bahaullah and christ are totally two separate people. You shown that countless times by quoting his words in which have no resemblance to christian thought and christ words at all.
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
You're concern is very legitimate as Baha'is don't want the world to lose its diversity just its conflicts. We seek unity in diversity not unity in uniformity so it's a very valid argument.
Then why preach Bahai? That is the essence in our difference here, I think. I understand an individual practicing Bahai, but why try to spread it? Why not just spread peace messages instead?
 

InvestigateTruth

Veteran Member
To make it convenient for one I give here (as one did not do it oneself despite requests) the verse in discussion with the context verses, some preceding and some following:

[6:34] We know full well that what they say verily grieves thee; for surely it is not thee that they charge with falsehood but it is the Signs of Allah that the evil-doers reject.
[6:35] And Messengers indeed have been rejected before thee; but notwithstanding their rejection and persecution they remained patient until Our help came to them. There is none that can change the words of Allah. And there have already come to thee tidings of past Messengers.
[6:36] And if their aversion is grievous to thee, then, if thou art able to seek a passage into the earth or a ladder unto heaven, and bring them a Sign, thou canst do so. And had Allah enforced His will, He could surely have brought them together into the guidance. So be thou not of those who lack knowledge.
[6:37] Only those can accept who listen. And as for the dead, Allah will raise them to life, then to Him shall they be brought back.
[6:38] And they say, ‘Why has not a Sign been sent down to him from his Lord?’ Say, ‘Surely, Allah has power to send down a Sign, but most of them do not know.’
[6:39] There is not an animal that crawls in the earth, nor a bird that flies on its two wings, but they are communities like you. We have left out nothing in the Book. Then to their Lord shall they be gathered together.
[6:40] Those who have rejected Our Signs are deaf and dumb, in utter darkness. Whom Allah wills He allows to perish and whom He wills He places on the right path.
[6:41] Say, ‘What think ye? If the punishment of Allah come upon you or there come upon you the Hour, will you call upon any other than Allah, if you are truthful?’
[6:42] Nay, but on Him alone will you call; then will He remove that which you call on Him to remove, if He please, and you will forget what you associate with Him.
[6:43] And indeed We sent Messengers to peoples before thee; then We afflicted them with poverty and adversity that they might humble themselves.
_____________

Now please give one's understanding of the verse from the context verses. Please don't quote from any other sources yet one could benefit from them but give here one's own argument/understanding in one's own words, Right? Please

Anybody, please

Regards
Hello,

in my view, Within its context, it has exactly same meaning that Imam Reza, and Recorded Traditions have.

To make it simple, lets look at this part:


....We have left out nothing in the Book. Then to their Lord shall they be gathered together....


These verses are saying that, God has revealed all details that are required for guiding mankind in Quran, until the Day of Resurrection, when humanity returns to God, and meet Him, and brought together again, on the Day of Resurrection. He has also included in Quran, the behaviour of different Ummah (people), who rejected Messengers everytime. Then He also reminds what would happen to those who reject the Verses (signs), and those who reject the Messengers. Because the Day of Resurrection, is a Day that a new Messenger (the Qaim) would come, and God would bring people together, so, in these verses, He is saying all details are given in Quran with regards to the Day of Resurrection, so, when that Day comes, people know, what the consequence of rejecting the verses and the Messenger of God will be...
In Bahai view that Day already came, and because many rejected Him, there is so much suffering in the world. So, as the verse reminds
"And indeed We sent Messengers to peoples before thee; then We afflicted them with poverty and adversity that they might humble themselves.", also in our time there is so much suffering in the world after Bahaullah was sent, so, to punish and humble mankind.... i believe this is what these verses are talking about within context. And this is what this verse is saying:




But my aim, was to present that Islamic Sources, says, Quran has all the details, all the events that must come to pass to the Day of Resurrection, which includes many events related to the Qaim....so, we can recognize Qaim.. As this verse says:

..Say, ‘Surely, Allah has power to send down a Sign, but most of them do not know.’..

Which according to Imam Bagher, the Sign that this verse is talking about, is related to Manifestation of Qaim, and Christ. You can see here, how imam Bagher explained it:

کتابخانه مدرسه فقاهت - بحار الأنوار - ط دارالاحیاء التراث - العلامة المجلسي"ان_الله_قادر_علی_ان_ينزل_آية"

کتابخانه مدرسه فقاهت - معجم أحاديث الإمام المهدي ع - الشيخ علي الكوراني العاملي"ان_الله_قادر_علی_ان_ينزل_آية"



Quran has all the details regarding cities the Qaim will go, even time, and durations, and what events will happen at the time of Qaim...
In another words, there are many Hadithes regarding Qaim, but the Hadithes have their origin in Quran.. So, if there was no news regarding the Qaim in Quran, then it would have been a false idea, because Quran has all details, so, that includes the events related to Manifestation of the Qaim. It is just that, the Hadithes, would make those details more clear.
 
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loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
Um... Joseph Smith died in 1844. Do you see a problem here?

The prophecies refer to 1891 if he lived at that time he would have seen Christ. It's irrelevant when he died. The prophecies were speaking about IF he lived till then.

"I was once praying earnestly upon the subject, and a voice said unto me, My son, if thou livest till thou art 85 years of age, thou shalt see the Face of the Son of Man.

Diary of Joseph Smith, April 6, 1843, quoted in The Revelations of Joseph Smith, p.345)
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
His name can be jehosaphat.

The very nature of bahaullahs teachings and univeralism precludes him from being the promised one.

Thats like saying since allah means god, muslims have the same god as christians and jews.

Jews would not place christ at a divinity level.

Christians wont downplay jesus to follow the laws of the jews

Muslims wont equate christ to god nor would they beoieve the quran is equal to the bible in terms of authority and practice.

The meanings of names mean nothing if the character and plan of who carries that name conflict with another of the same meaning.

Bahaullah and christ are totally two separate people. You shown that countless times by quoting his words in which have no resemblance to christian thought and christ words at all.

Christ also foretold 'one world religion' comprised of all the other religions.

John 10:16

And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

Christ could not have been more clear about all religions becoming united into one religion.
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
You're concern is very legitimate as Baha'is don't want the world to lose its diversity just its conflicts. We seek unity in diversity not unity in uniformity so it's a very valid argument.
Hi....
How's it going?
One point.
Baha'i cannot have unity in diversity because Baha'i would only give the vote to Baha'is in a Baha'i World.
And so diversity would have no right to vote, make decisions or hold office.

Therefore this is a contradiction between two Baha'i claims.
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
Christ also foretold 'one world religion' comprised of all the other religions.

John 10:16

And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

Christ could not have been more clear about all religions becoming united into one religion.
Sure ... it's called Christianity. Muslims believe the same, it's called Islam. The only thing that changes is the name of the prophet, and the name of the religion. Everything else is same old same old.
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
Hi....
How's it going?
One point.
Baha'i cannot have unity in diversity because Baha'i would only give the vote to Baha'is in a Baha'i World.
And so diversity would have no right to vote, make decisions or hold office.

Therefore this is a contradiction between two Baha'i claims.

In the recent American elections millions of people voted as Americans. Just because they are called Americans does that mean there's no diversity?

Actually there's more diversity in the Baha'i Community than outside it because you will see the diversity 'mixing and assimilating' instead of one race, culture or nationality all congregating in one suburb as in multiculturalism.

The Baha'i Community is advanced from multiculturalism because our diversity mixes and mingles with each other.
 
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