Its a very good answer. As I said in an earlier post today, Baha'is should see non-Baha'is as Baha'is and ourselves as non-Baha'is.
I should be getting you to answer my questions.
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How are these Great Beings explained?
- Thread starter loverofhumanity
- Start date
Its a very good answer. As I said in an earlier post today, Baha'is should see non-Baha'is as Baha'is and ourselves as non-Baha'is.
I should be getting you to answer my questions.
I understand that you believe that Bahaiullah is the person who has this force. But isn't the one who would do this, do this in his lifetime? After all if personal power from a transcendent source is the thing that is lacking to get to world peace, the person with such power has to be alive to move nations. Otherwise all you have is what everybody else has, inspirational books and statements from deceased founders. And if you suggest that the difference is recency, one could point to renewals and modernization with ancient traditions brought about by persons of great inner power. Examples like Gandhi, Vivekanada (Hinduism), Dalai Lama, Thich Nath Hahn (Buddhism), Pentecostals (Christianity) can be given who keep the worldviews relevant to today's needs.
You honestly don't see any contradiction here?
Although Zoroastrianism precedes Abrahamism, I think, the philosophy is totally dualistic, really focusing on a good force and an evil force. So much of the philosophy is similar.
Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
I'm just a person just as Bahaullah, Joe Smoe, and Jane around the block. The better question is to ask what should we do?
So we're each putting in our ideas for world peace. Let me think. My idea would be more humility and less hierarchy. Everyone keeps their roles in religion. Priest will still be priest etc. If people are in service and ask each other what they need and exchange gratitude and care for each that's towards world peace.
Hopefully, if we exchange goods and what we need as money rather than paper money, greed will decrease. Going back to holistic methods of medicine in addition to what we have now and spiritual/mental/physical healing combined can help people live longer in our bodies today not just wait for us to die and hope for tomorrow.
We won't be in spiritual depression if we had our spiritual doctors take care of us just as we have medical doctors and mental health professionals.
Eating natural foods is a plus. Politics (and politics is a part of our spiritual health) by managing our relations with other countries without sticking our nose in other people's business that don't affect us (Americans) as a country would be good. It gives citizens a sense of security in their own homeland.
There are many ways and ideas to come to world peace. Christ, Muhammad, and Bahaullah have died. We have their words but that's it. The living contribute to world peace. We make the effort. We put in the ideas. Some of us are motivated by our god(s) and some of us are not.
As long as we respect each other and have boundaries on that respect then our journey would be lighter. Will we reach our destination? It's unrealistic to say yes in any lifetime.
Why focus on the goal and not the journey?
What is your plan without a prophet?
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Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
Cultural appropriation. Your beliefs are fine. Having other beliefs in your own and interpreting them through the eyes of Bahaullah is not. That's the problem.
This is in strike contradiction of you saying (piggy backing on @Vinayaka here)
This is fine but
Humanity's diversity means letting each person and community have their own "Teacher" and ways towards world peace. No one teacher can do this.
So do you believe in diversity; more than one teacher or just one teacher for all?
Not everyone agrees and believes this. Believing in diversity is more than just respect. It's letting people find their world peace in their community's and self without any outside party uniting them and interpreting their views to fit their own. The goal is fine. The method is not.
Instead, what about Pagan teachings? What about Sufi teachings? What about.... There are many many many teaching that help people (people-the actual individual) come to world peace in themselves, community, and society. Revealed religions do not call the shots. That's a me vs. them mindset already.
Either you believe in diversity and more than one truths or you dont.
They do. You just dont like the words "better", "dominate", and force, etc. It's a natural thing with abrahamic god-religions (abrahamic mindset) and prophet-religions. Without your god and/or prophet, everything is doomed. So, by default, it is "better". How can it not? You wouldn' follow it if Bahaullah's teachings didn't provide world peace that, for example, only christ could provide (if you were christian).
In prophet based religions, the entire religion totally falls apart without the prophet. It's like a kingdom where the king is the absolute ruler. When the king dies, nobody at all knows what to do, because they always relied on the king to tell them what to do. Some marriages run that way too. When the decision making spouse dies, the other one is just lost, helpless, hopeless, in grieving for the rest of their lives.
Putting all that power on to one person, and a long since deceased one at that, seems so illogical. Today, if somehow two warring factions decided to call a truce, would they call in a living UN mediator, or would they turn to the words of any number of prophets, and books that have been regurgitated, rewritten, and distorted over time? I think the answer is obvious. (But then again, I'm not a member of a prophet based religion either so it's difficult for me to jump over the gap to view it that way.)
Putting all that power on to one person, and a long since deceased one at that, seems so illogical. Today, if somehow two warring factions decided to call a truce, would they call in a living UN mediator, or would they turn to the words of any number of prophets, and books that have been regurgitated, rewritten, and distorted over time? I think the answer is obvious. (But then again, I'm not a member of a prophet based religion either so it's difficult for me to jump over the gap to view it that way.)
The Great Teachers of the past revealed their teachings for past ages and prescribed no teachings at all for world peace or this age when the religions, nations and races are interconnected and intermingling.
So we have a new age dawned upon humanity with no guidance given in the Holy Scriptures of all the major Faiths. Man made attempts have been unable to transform the world and so we remain visionless and without direction with peace being elusive.
We have also had the great wars and many other terrible wars and violence, drugs, immorality and disunity between the nations, races and religions persist with no end in sight.
Although the Teachers such as Buddha, Christ and Moses died, the influence of their teachings lived on and was able to transform civilizations and individuals for centuries to come, even to this day.
But as They had left no guidance for our age as to how to deal with the conflicting creeds, races and nationalities we are divided on how to bring about unity and harmony.
However, They did not leave us empty handed. In all their Holy Books they speak of the last days or the end of the age and of another Great One to come at that time to deliver humanity from the abyss so to speak.
Christians await the Second Coming which is to usher in the Kingdom of God, a spiritual civilisation, Muslims await the Mahdi, the Jews, the Lord of Hosts, the Vaishnavite Hindus - Kalki, the tenth Avatar and the Buddhists Maitreya Amitabha Buddha.
Baha'is believe this is all referrring to the same Great Teacher
Would not another Moses, Buddha, Christ or Krishna have the spiritual influence to transform the world? Just as in the past their influence was so powerful it can even be felt today thousands of years later.
So is it not possible that another of these Great Teachers could revive and regenerate humanity spiritually? If Christ today still holds influenced over billions of Christians 2,000 yrs after His passing then if another Teacher with the same power were to appear today couldn't His Teachings also change the world?
Baha'is believe this Great Teacher has appeared and the Promised One foretold by all the major religions has come to bring peace and harmony to this divided world.
Baha'is also believe that the mystical power of These Beings is as such 'Be, and it is'. Whatever they proclaim and decree musters invisible spiritual forces to bring about the execution of Their Words.
For example. When Baha'u'llah uttered this word...
"The world is but one country and mankind its citizens" it was a 'mother verse' which brought forth the sciences, technologies and world communications to shrink the world into a global village.
Now, with the internet, the world truly is as one country and we as its citizens. We can communicate over voice and video all over the world with each other as if being in one another's home.
This, we believe is as a result of just one 'Mother Word'. To some this may seem unrealistic but if one will carefully examine Baha'u'llah's Words and compare them with movements born since and the direction of humanity since He revealed them they might find that humanity is moving towards His teachings unknowingly.
Great thinkers such as Vivekanada spent almost two months at the Green Acre Bahá'í School
Green Acre Bahá'í School - Wikipedia
Gandhi has numerous contacts with Baha'is and consulted them on occasion.
Mahatma Gandhi and the Bahá'ís
It is clear, I believe, that some of our greatest spiritual leaders have been influenced by Baha'u'llah's teachings.
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
Is "Inner peace perhaps" your answer to: "Their purpose was not to establish peace" So what then was their purpose?
No, let's discuss that a little more. What was the purpose of Buddha according to the Baha'i Faith? And Moses? And Jesus? And then the big one... What was the purpose of Hinduism, since it doesn't claim to have had a manifestation start it?
I'm looking for the Baha'i understanding of what these people and religions taught as truth... and please, no "grade school" analogy. I already know it's not going to match up with what the religions themselves believe their purpose is, but that's what I want to discuss in more detail... How and why they are so off base with what the Baha'i Faith says about them.
That's what this thread is all about - the special innate power of all the Great Teachers or Manifestations to transform civilization in their age.
They all possessed this spiritual power but had different missions.
The mission of Baha'u'llah is to effect a spiritual transformation for this age. He is not superior to the others, His mission is just different. And relevant for our time period.
None of the other Manifestations mentioned anything at all about world peace as it was not a requirement of their time. But now it is urgently needed so God has sent a Messenger with guidance and teachings on how to establish it.
I don't believe there is anything wrong with claiming that only religion has that transforming power that can change civilization or that religious truth is relative and not absolute.
We believe that no one religion is a panacea for all ages. Each religion is only a remedy for its particular age.
Do we say in a school that the year 10 teacher is superior to the nursery teacher when without learning the alphabet one cannot advance?
Baha'is believe that is no superior religion and no superior Teacher. They all teach humanity but prescribe different remedies for different illnesses. We believe they all obtain their spiritual power form the same Source. The illness today we are convinced is disunity and Baha'u'llah has brought teachings for unity.
There is no contradiction.
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
That was your response to my question: "Now for science. Have you debated any of the Young Earth Creationist Christians? Not that I believe them, but I think they have some very good arguments why the Earth isn't millions of years old."
That is the first close minded answer I've ever seen from you. These are important people. They are a major obstacle for the Baha'i Faith, because they are the strongest voice for a literal interpretation of the Bible. They have "scientific" reasons why they believe there was a worldwide flood and why the Earth is only a few thousand years old. They say there is dinosaur bones with soft tissue still on them. And that many ancient people have stone carvings showing pictures of dinosaurs. Besides, these guys are on Christian TV all the time, so all you'd have to do is watch a half hour show to get the gist of what they are saying.
But that's up to you. I'm just wondering what Baha'u'llah do? Wouldn't he want you to know and understand their pov, so you can whack them over the head (symbolically of course) with your knowledge?
Anyway, let me ask more Baha'i specific questions about this. So Bible Creation and the flood symbolic... didn't happen. So what does the Baha'i Faith say about creation, evolution, and when the dinosaurs existed and how they disappeared and when man first appeared? You got anything?
Each to his own way. But we believe that only the spiritual power of a Christ or a Buddha or Moses can unite a divided world. No other power in human history has the power to unite hearts as does religion.
Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
That leaves out people who don't believe in god, moses, The Buddha, and moses. That's not world peace. Christ and Moses only wanted world peace if you believed in their father. It's not universal. The Buddha's world peace is individually oriented not one humanity. When we each understand the nature life (not relieve suffering but understand it) then we will end rebirth and actually die.
You have to take the spiritual component out because unity involves agreement. If you don't have the same foundation for all people, it's a dominate faith. That's a default regardless the argument against it.
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
Why does he say, "Adam, the Father of Mankind"? A Bible believer thinks Adam was the first man, but who else does? And someone here said that Adam and Eve were symbolic, so why refer to him as if he's real? Why not talk about all the Hindu saints and sages from centuries before the supposed time of Adam?
Then he says, "no records concerning them are now available"? Then why doesn't he tell us about them? If Joseph Smith can tell us what happened on the American continent, then surely Baha'u'llah can let us know something about prerecorded history of man and his religions.
And I still don't think I got a definitive answer on the "Book of Mormon". Do Baha'is believe it's for real or is it fantasy? Thanks.
Thank you for honestly answering my question, which was .... You honestly don't see any contraction?
At his point i really honestly don't know what to say.
You see, I honestly see tremendous contradiction between the two statements. In one you're saying all religions are fine, but then you add 'according to Baha'i thereby putting Baha'i above all of the rest, and go on a rant about the greatness of Baha'u'llah, which is the very essence of any prophet based religion. I don't see how you can have it both ways. All religions can't possible be equal if one religion is better than the rest.
If you could find something that wasn't from Baha'i sources, it would be more convincing.
You're basically saying 'the Baha'i faith is great because the Baha'i faith says that it is great."
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
Let's just look at Moses. How did he unite a divided world?
So are you actually saying that the world doesn't need Baha'u'llah here?
I definitely include atheists in my circle of humanity, lol.
We already have submitted our Peace Plan to the peoples of the world, governments and the UN and all religions.
The Promise of World Peace—The Universal House of Justice