How are these Great Beings explained?

[Vinayaka]

You are assuming that Bahai Faith is not a Revelation from God. In Bahai View, it is from God. God does not need permission from anyone. Do you see this?

Yes Baha'is believe that. Nobody else does. Each is entitled to their belief.

 

[Vinayaka]

But if you do not believe in God, whenever you see someone disagrees or perhaps you think he is against you, would you still be kind to them or love them? If yes, why? For what reason?

Lots of atheists are incredibly kind people. My father was one and he showered love on everyone around. God has nothing to do with acting humanely or not. This is a discussion you ought to have with atheists. I've also seen some very 'religious; people be incredibly mean spirited.

 

[Vinayaka]

So which view of the thousands of sects of all these religions is the correct version?

For all of the individuals that believe in any thing, that particular view is what they think is correct for them. This is called religious diversity. Now, if somebody feels that another religious view besides their own is the correct view, then logically they should just go and convert.

So, there is no universal correct view. 'I am right and you are wrong' is a false understanding. A much better and humane understanding its to say, "Hey, we differ. That's cool."

 

[siti]

But if you do not believe in God, whenever you see someone disagrees or perhaps you think he is against you, would you still be kind to them or love them? If yes, why? For what reason?

I don't, I would and I do. Respecting our human differences is a humanist principle - no need for any particular belief in God, and if you look at the major part of religious history, it would have been much easier to apply this principle without a religious belief in God.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

The Sun kind of looks the same and kind of does the same thing every day. We can count on it being consistent.

Manifestations? No, they look different, taught different, came in the framework of different religions and cultures. Similarities? Yeah. But a lot of difference too. For you, go ahead, disregard the differences. That's what you need to do to make your religion make sense. But then, you insinuate too much sameness and oneness.

No, the differences are important. Some maybe bad interpretations. Maybe some because the prophet was misquoted. All kinds of reasons why the "Holy Books" might not be teaching exactly what they seem. But whose fault is that? It's not the same "Sun".

The manifestation is not like the Sun. The manifestation comes... shines his light... comes again... shines his light again. We see it. We recognize it. No problem. But that's not what happens. Instead, one day the Sun doesn't rise on schedule. When it does rise, it's millions miles further away than it's supposed to, so crops die. Another day it's going from north to south. It stays away for two days then stays in one spot for three days. That's closer to the "Sun" of the manifestations.

The Sun does not 'appear' the same always. Yet, it is still the same Sun.

I quote Bahaullah, who explain the differences:


"Consider the sun. Were it to say now, “I am the sun of yesterday,” it would speak the truth. And should it, bearing the sequence of time in mind, claim to be other than that sun, it still would speak the truth. In like manner, if it be said that all the days are but one and the same, it is correct and true. And if it be said, with respect to their particular names and designations, that they differ, that again is true. For though they are the same, yet one doth recognize in each a separate designation, a specific attribute, a particular character. Conceive accordingly the distinction, variation, and unity characteristic of the various Manifestations of holiness, that thou mayest comprehend the allusions made by the Creator of all names and attributes to the mysteries of distinction and unity, and discover the answer to thy question as to why that everlasting Beauty should have, at sundry times, called Himself by different names and titles.....
"These attributes of God are not and have never been vouchsafed specially unto certain Prophets, and withheld from others. Nay, all the Prophets of God, His well-favored, His holy, and chosen Messengers, are, without exception, the bearers of His names, and the embodiments of His attributes.
They only differ in the intensity of their revelation, and the comparative potency of their light. "......
In this respect, each Manifestation of God hath a distinct individuality, a definitely prescribed mission, a predestined Revelation, and specially designated limitations. Each one of them is known by a different name, is characterized by a special attribute, fulfills a definite Mission, and is entrusted with a particular Revelation."...."
"It is because of this difference in their station and mission that the words and utterances flowing from these Wellsprings of divine knowledge appear to diverge and differ. Otherwise, in the eyes of them that are initiated into the mysteries of divine wisdom, all their utterances are in reality but the expressions of one Truth. As most of the people have failed to appreciate those stations to which We have referred, they therefore feel perplexed and dismayed at the varying utterances pronounced by Manifestations that are essentially one and the same." ...

I think Bahaullah clearly explained why there are differences, and yet They are the same.

 

[Vinayaka]

I don't, I would and I do. Respecting our human differences is a humanist principle - no need for any particular belief in God, and if you look at the major part of religious history, it would have been much easier to apply this principle without a religious belief in God.

So true. I've never understood how unethical but religious people proselytise their false belief that you need God in order to be good. It's quite absurd in my opinion.

Even the great Tirukkural makes little mention of God.

 

[Vinayaka]

The Sun does not 'appear' the same always. Yet, it is still the same Sun.

I quote Bahaullah, who explain the differences:


"Consider the sun. Were it to say now, “I am the sun of yesterday,” it would speak the truth. And should it, bearing the sequence of time in mind, claim to be other than that sun, it still would speak the truth. In like manner, if it be said that all the days are but one and the same, it is correct and true. And if it be said, with respect to their particular names and designations, that they differ, that again is true. For though they are the same, yet one doth recognize in each a separate designation, a specific attribute, a particular character. Conceive accordingly the distinction, variation, and unity characteristic of the various Manifestations of holiness, that thou mayest comprehend the allusions made by the Creator of all names and attributes to the mysteries of distinction and unity, and discover the answer to thy question as to why that everlasting Beauty should have, at sundry times, called Himself by different names and titles.....
"These attributes of God are not and have never been vouchsafed specially unto certain Prophets,
and withheld from others. Nay, all the Prophets of God, His well-favored, His holy, and chosen
Messengers, are, without exception, the bearers of His names, and the embodiments of His attributes.
They only differ in the intensity of their revelation, and the comparative potency of their
light. "......"
In this respect, each Manifestation of God hath a distinct individuality, a definitely prescribed mission, a predestined Revelation, and specially designated limitations. Each one of them is known by a different name, is characterized by a special attribute, fulfills a definite Mission, and is entrusted with a particular Revelation."...."
"It is because of this difference in their station and mission that the words and utterances flowing
from these Wellsprings of divine knowledge appear to diverge and differ. Otherwise, in the eyes of them that are initiated into the mysteries of divine wisdom, all their utterances are in reality but the expressions of one Truth. As most of the people have failed to appreciate those stations to which We have referred, they therefore feel perplexed and dismayed at the varying utterances pronounced by Manifestations that are essentially one and the same." ...

I think Bahaullah clearly explained why there are differences, and yet They are the same.

What a very confused and confusing message.

 

[Vinayaka]

What a very confused and confusing message.

I couldn't edit the above, for some reason, but would like to add that his messages, besides being confusing to me, also only deal with certain peoples of the planet, that of the Abrahamics, making no mention of the rest of humanity at all. It's like we don't exist. But I'm good with that.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

I don't, I would and I do. Respecting our human differences is a humanist principle - no need for any particular belief in God, and if you look at the major part of religious history, it would have been much easier to apply this principle without a religious belief in God.

Well, I think easier said than done. Practically, people are usually not that tolerant and patient toward each other's short comings. When they see, someone is acting or saying something that they do not like, they loose their temper.

I quote Abdulbaha:

"Humanity is not perfect. There are imperfections in every human being, and you will always become unhappy if you look toward the people themselves. But if you look toward God, you will love them and be kind to them, for the world of God is the world of perfection and complete mercy. Therefore, do not look at the shortcomings of anybody; see with the sight of forgiveness. The imperfect eye beholds imperfections. The eye that covers faults looks toward the Creator of souls. He created them, trains and provides for them, endows them with capacity and life, sight and hearing; therefore, they are the signs of His grandeur. You must love and be kind to everybody, care for the poor, protect the weak, heal the sick, teach and educate the ignorant."

I think what Abdulbaha says, is practical and realistic. When we talk about God, this should not be confused with dogma, and religious fanaticism. Because fanaticism itself is the cause of disunity.

 

[Vinayaka]

Because fanaticism itself is the cause of disunity.

Well said. But of course the Bahai faith is excluded from any fanaticism, right?

 

[siti]

Well, I think easier said than done.

What is - being compassionate, tolerant and respectful of fellow humans, or abandoning religion? By way of encouragement, I also quote Abdu'l Baha:

"If religion be the cause of disunity, then irreligion is surely to be preferred."

I think that must be the most truthful word ever spoken by Baha'u'llah or Abdu'l Baha - and its right there in your own tag line.

Since there is absolutely, unquestionably no doubt that religion is indeed the cause of disunity, I am expecting the entire Baha'i community to follow Abdu'l Baha's preference and take up irreligion forthwith. I have already dispensed with religion and honestly find this no obstacle in being kind, compassionate or tolerant (though I admit I still need to work on my tolerance levels - especially in regard to religiously-motivated disingenuousness).

 

[sayak83]

I have just discovered that:-

"It's actually humanism which is the culmination of all religions and prophets. At the end of the day we believe that all God God's etc. were simple myths used to teach human beings the wisdoms of humanistic compassion in a simple manner. In that they succeeded in their time. But now it's the time for reason and science and all religions should immediately recognize the wisdom of abandoning their myths and Come to the true understanding and culmination of their teachings under naturalistic humanism. "

Cool. We have inclusive humanism folks!

 

[CG Didymus]

The Sun does not 'appear' the same always. Yet, it is still the same Sun.

I quote Bahaullah, who explain the differences:


"Consider the sun. Were it to say now, “I am the sun of yesterday,” it would speak the truth. And should it, bearing the sequence of time in mind, claim to be other than that sun, it still would speak the truth. In like manner, if it be said that all the days are but one and the same, it is correct and true. And if it be said, with respect to their particular names and designations, that they differ, that again is true. For though they are the same, yet one doth recognize in each a separate designation, a specific attribute, a particular character. Conceive accordingly the distinction, variation, and unity characteristic of the various Manifestations of holiness, that thou mayest comprehend the allusions made by the Creator of all names and attributes to the mysteries of distinction and unity, and discover the answer to thy question as to why that everlasting Beauty should have, at sundry times, called Himself by different names and titles.....
"These attributes of God are not and have never been vouchsafed specially unto certain Prophets, and withheld from others. Nay, all the Prophets of God, His well-favored, His holy, and chosen Messengers, are, without exception, the bearers of His names, and the embodiments of His attributes.
They only differ in the intensity of their revelation, and the comparative potency of their light. "......
In this respect, each Manifestation of God hath a distinct individuality, a definitely prescribed mission, a predestined Revelation, and specially designated limitations. Each one of them is known by a different name, is characterized by a special attribute, fulfills a definite Mission, and is entrusted with a particular Revelation."...."
"It is because of this difference in their station and mission that the words and utterances flowing from these Wellsprings of divine knowledge appear to diverge and differ. Otherwise, in the eyes of them that are initiated into the mysteries of divine wisdom, all their utterances are in reality but the expressions of one Truth. As most of the people have failed to appreciate those stations to which We have referred, they therefore feel perplexed and dismayed at the varying utterances pronounced by Manifestations that are essentially one and the same." ...

I think Bahaullah clearly explained why there are differences, and yet They are the same.

Well thank you so much for remembering me. I thought I was being shunned or something.

The Bible itself doesn't present Moses as anything close to the definition of a manifestation. Buddha got enlightened, he wasn't born that way. But let's take a real close look at Hinduism. They say that no "Great Being" started it. Krishna is the only one Baha'i mention, but he didn't start it.

It wouldn't be a big deal if the Baha'is didn't make so many claims as to how all religions are from one source and are a progression. So with Hinduism, which part of it is true? Which books of theirs are Holy Scripture and which aren't? You've already said that you don't believe in reincarnation. So one thing right there, a man-made belief? What else? What beliefs and practices of the Hindus are God-given and which are man-made traditions?

Once we find that out, and do it for the other religions, we can see if it is the same "Sun" shining down on us.

 

[loverofhumanity]

No, that's a Christian myth. First three are totally inapplicable. The rest are completely generic and have always been present in every culture down to aboriginal hunter gatherers.

That was my initial point that these laws are universal. You just confirmed it. Thank you. Whether before or after Moses appeared, these laws are useful for all the world.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

You're the one who said we should be using the correct version of religions.

So I asked you which versions are correct among the thousands of sects that do disagree over basic beliefs.

Just answering your question.

Thats the huge issue when having a religion in your faith that the actual practitioners dont see. The people who follow the faith are happy in their individual or community path. When I practiced in the Church I could care less what protestants say about my Church. If they think I pray to statues thats their issue. But you have to be a followerer and identify as a follower to understand that.

Religion is personal and communal. Its not "who has the correct one" but in many eastern faiths "who practices well for himself and/or for his community to acheive X goal and live Y way. As a Bahai, you dont have that flucuation of how people know christ in all their views. The different sects of Hinduism that many people are called to. How one sees enlightenment is dependant on the practice he uses. Do you chant? Do you meditate? Do you zazen? (Different than meditation) What do you do in these individual faiths to find the truth or correct teaching?

Remember, everyone is different. Each person has different truths. You cant have other religions in your faith well intentioned or not when you dont see their truth different in foundations than your own.

If you dont see the differences, youll always be looking for the correct teaching. If you know there are differences youll find the correct teaching is in yourself and community of followers. Thats the maturity of faith, really. When you can see people for who they are without needing to associate with them all the time.

It takes time. In my opinion, bahaullah is blurring the experience of understanding and practicing faiths. Thats why seekers are seekers. If they see religions through another lens its very limiting.

 

[CG Didymus]

I have just discovered that:-

"It's actually humanism which is the culmination of all religions and prophets. At the end of the day we believe that all God God's etc. were simple myths used to teach human beings the wisdoms of humanistic compassion in a simple manner. In that they succeeded in their time. But now it's the time for reason and science and all religions should immediately recognize the wisdom of abandoning their myths and Come to the true understanding and culmination of their teachings under naturalistic humanism. "

Cool. We have inclusive humanism folks!

As far as a religion goes, do you think a practicing Baha"i is almost a humanist?

 

[CG Didymus]

That was my initial point that these laws are universal. You just confirmed it. Thank you. Whether before or after Moses appeared, these laws are useful for all the world.

Ah, you haven't answer my comment on this issue yet.

What was it the "Code of Hammurabi" or something that pre-dated the Bible? It had similar rules? But even so, a lot of the laws are very basic... Love God, don't steal, don't murder, don't lie... but then we have "keep the Sabbath Holy"? Who does that? I mean the way the Jews are supposed to keep it? In fact, that ties in the stoning problem again. If you break the Sabbath, you could get stoned to death. So it's those Ten Commandments that became universal?

 

[sayak83]

As far as a religion goes, do you think a practicing Baha"i is almost a humanist?

No, because modern secular humanism either rejects God or at best considers a deist idea of God.

 

[sayak83]

That was my initial point that these laws are universal. You just confirmed it. Thank you. Whether before or after Moses appeared, these laws are useful for all the world.

And does not require any revelation as they are obvious and just common sense.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Th

a


Thats the huge issue when having a religion in your faith that the actual practitioners dont see. The people who follow the faith are happy in their individual path or community path. When I practiced in the Church I could care less what protestants say about my Church. If they think pray to statues thats their issue. But you have to be a followerer and identify as a follower to understand that.

Religion is personal akd communal. Its not "who has the correct one" but in many eastern faiths "who practices well for himself and/or for his community tonacheive X goal and live Y way. As a Bahai, you dont have that flucuation of how people know christ in all their views. The different sects of Hinduism that many people are called to. How one sees enlightenment is dependant on the pracrice he uses. Do you chant? Do you meditate? Do you zazen? (Different than medititation) What do you do in these individual faiths to find the truth or correct teachin?

Remember, everyone is different. Each person has different truths. You cant have other religions in your faith well intentioned or not when you dont see their truth different in foundations than your own.

If you dont see the differences, youll always be looking for the correct teaching. If you know there are differences youll find the correct teaching is in yourself and community of followers. Thats the maturity of faith, really. When you can see people for who they are without needing to associate with them all the time.

It takes time. In my opinion, bahaullah is blurring he experience of understanding and practicing faiths. Thats why seekers are seekers. If they see religions through one lens its very limiting.

We see all the religions as one indivisible individual so to speak. At one stage we were a child then an adolescent and then an adult. They represent different stages of development of the one Faith of God.

The Baha'i Faith represents the latest stage in the evolution of this one evolving Faith.

On the diversity of religion, the Bahá'í Teachings say that..

'It regards them in no other light except as different stages in the eternal history and constant evolution of one religion, Divine and indivisible, of which it itself forms but an integral part.' (Effendi)

'This is the changeless Faith of God, eternal in the past, eternal in the future' - Baha'u'llah

Belief is not always truth. We only support and endorse truth.

The Baha'i Faith represents only the purest forms of each religion without the sects, without the conflicting interpretations, superstitions and man made doctrines.

So you will find not all beliefs on this planet are included in our religion. What is excluded either cannot be verified or is untrue according to a Manifestation of God not a priest or follower.