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How are these Great Beings explained?

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
And investigation is showing that Baha'i has no hand in this endeavor's global adoption. Nations were doing it before Baha'i, so what is Baha'i adding to the point that it's a global necessity? And before it's said that it's not a necessity, by having the goal of globalization, you are saying - even without "saying" - that Baha'i is a necessity for the world.

Investigations shows that even from the earliest days of the Baha'i Faith we have been involved in a process of spiritual and social transformation, first amongst ourselves and then to work positively towards the betterment of the lives of those around us. For example one of the first of the early Babi's was a well known poet and thinker called Tahirih. Transforming the beliefs and norms of the Persian men in the mid nineteenth century deeply entrenched in Islamic ways was not easy. At the conference of Badasht she removed her veil, exposing her face. This sent shock waves through the conference participants that this new found faith could mean such a radical departure from Islam. Eventually, along with thousands of other early Babi's she was cruelly put to death.

Conference of Badasht - Wikipedia

Táhirih - Wikipedia

In the early 1900s Bahá'í women encouraged by `Abdu'l-Baha were able to gain positions of equality in Bahá'í administration. In Iran, education for girls was started by Bahá'ís leading to the establishment in 1910 of the Tarbiyat School for Girls which helped train the first generation of Iranian professional women. By the 1970s, while the majority of Iranian women were illiterate, most Bahá'í women could read and write.

The Bahá'í Faith's emphasis on equality resulted in actively promoting a number of programs with the aim of the advancement of women with greater access for women to health, education, child-care, and business opportunities. The Universal House of Justice has repeatedly called national Bahá'í communities to promote the equal participation of women in Bahá'í activities. In 1993, the Bahá'í International Community established the Office of the Advancement of Women in New York City at the United Nations, and various national communities have also created their own offices. Activities in these programmes include the promotion of girls' education, literacy, rural health care, and income-generating skills.

Clearly Baha'i efforts have been relatively modest to date as we have about 5 - 7 million adherents worldwide. However the Baha'is despite their small number have always been at the cutting edge of social change and promoting with courage, vigour, and wisdom the spiritual and social aspects of the new age we live in.

Like Christianity?

Christianity successfully followed Jesus' command to preach the gospels to all nations with Christianity now being the most widespread religion on the planet with well established Christian communities in most localities throughout the world. However Christianity is now in rapid decline in the West, where for centuries it had been strong as its disparate sects, with teachings rooted in the ancient world, struggle to adapt properly to these modern times. The Baha'i Faith emphasises principles such as the oneness of religion, the oneness of humanity, human rights, the equality of men and women, universal education, a world commonwealth, democracy, and a world language and economy. We are well placed to navigate the profound social and spiritual changes of the times we live in and engage positively with our communities. We are developing day by day increasing capacity for spiritual transformation of communities as the world struggles, burdened by customs and traditions that have long outlived their usefulness.

Is it equal, though? Looking into this, it is not. Women cannot serve on the Universal House of Justice, you have no female "prophets", and girls are given preference for education over boys. You can't claim equality, but then accelerate the advancement of only one gender. Women are also barred from military service and endeavors under Baha'i ideology, whereas men are not. (And as an aside, why would a religion that is so dedicated to peace have anything in allowance for war and military?)

More than this, the only reason that you have gender "equality" - and I say it as so because it's not equality, and in some instances the biases of the past are simply reversed - is because the writings of Baha'u'llah; it does not exist as an intrinsic truth.

It is true that the Central figures of our Faith, The Bab, Baha'u'llah, and Abdu'l-Baha are all men. I wonder how the faith would have developed in 19th century Persia if it had been women. It is also true that women can not serve on the Universal Hose of Justice. However as with all elected Baha'i Institutions, it is the Universal House of Justice that provides guidance, not the individual members. It is noteworthy that the Chairman is rotated every 3 months so we don't have an identified leader. In fact many Baha'i such as myself would not be able to think of the names of more than one or two current members as we do not follow them as leaders.

However the Baha'i Faith is a grassroots community where most of the decision making happens at a local level by individuals, groups, and elected assemblies. There is complete equality of men and women in every sense within our communities, our national bodies, and all our other international governing bodies.

The purpose of making education of girls a priority is simply elevating motherhood and their role as first educators of children to its rightful place, namely the most important of all human endeavours.

Education holds an important place in the new order of things. The education of each child is compulsory. If there is not money enough in a family to educate both the girl and the boy the money must be dedicated to the girl’s education, for she is the potential mother. If there are no parents the community must educate the child. In addition to this widespread education each child must be taught a profession, art, or trade, so that every member of the community will be enabled to earn his own livelihood. – Abdu’l-Baha, Divine Philosophy, p. 83.

As for serving in the military, women are exempt, not barred. I think it is a slight error with the Wikipedia link I provided.


But there are certain matters, the participation in which is not worthy of women. For example, at the time when the community is taking up vigorous defensive measures against the attack of foes, the women are exempt from military engagements. It may so happen that at a given time warlike and savage tribes may furiously attack the body politic with the intention of carrying on a wholesale slaughter of its members; under such a circumstance defence is necessary, but it is the duty of men to organize and execute such defensive measures and not the women—because their hearts are tender and they cannot endure the sight of the horror of carnage, even if it is for the sake of defence. From such and similar undertakings the women are exempt.
(‘Abdu’l-Bahá, Paris Talks, p. 183)


Those will happen regardless. Mythology, on the other hand, frames the culture of a peoples, and quite often teaches very valuable lessons that can easily be passed down through generations. I absolutely disagree that mythology needs to be scrapped from religion, and in doing so you would effectively offend many religions and cultures. Counter-productive to world peace and unity.

I said less mythology, not no mythology. There has been a vital role for stories to be passed down through generations as you say that is central to culture. However the problem is when we can no longer distinguish between what is myth and fact. Take the resurrection of Christ for example. This was a useful myth to promote an understanding or belief in an afterlife. The myths of the high women you spoke of reminded us about the greatness and capacity of women, even during times when there was total male domination.

You've got a lot of women in the Hands of the Cause, who's goal was not leadership but propagation. That's no different than having women missionaries for Christian churches.

There's also mention of the International Bahá'í Council, who served as a precursor to the Universal House of Justice - one must wonder why women could be on the IBC, but not the UHJ. Yet the IBC never came to fruition; the nominations were in name only, and they never had an opportunity to carry out Effendi's goals for his "Ten Year Crusade". They became the aforementioned Hands of the Cause (who are not leaders,) while the UHJ was formed when five male members of the IBC were elected, effectively dissolving the UHJ.

Counsellors, missionaries and administrative roles aren't leadership. There are women in such roles throughout much of Christian history - Mother Superiors of convents, missionaries, etc - yet there are also women military leaders (such as Jeanne d'Arc) and even women priests in several Christian sects. So again, nothing new is being introduced. It's all good, make no mistake, but it's nothing that can't be found elsewhere.

The Baha'i Faith is not really a hierarchical religion like the other Abrahamic Faiths where we have authority placed with ministers and priests. Instead the authority rests with elected institutions, the individuals having no authority. The arm of the learned with hands of the cause, counsellors, axillary board members, and their assistants are really our spiritual leaders but they have no authority with decision making for communities unlike the assemblies. However they carry moral authority. The rank of the Hands of the Cause were greater than Universal House of Justice members. They had roles with both propagation and protection of the Faith. Their work was to oversee and stimulate the work of the Faith so they were not like Christian missionaries. The Hands of the Cause as a group had the ultimate authority for the 6 years period during 1957 - 1963 after the guardian passed away and the Universal House of Justice was elected. The IBC was always going to be a temporary measure until the House of Justice was elected in accordance with Abdu'l-Baha's instructions in HIs Will and Testament. It worth noting that the arm of the learned provides checks and balances to compliment the work of the arm of the elected.

I'm impressed that you actually read the link I provided you and have been able to demonstrate some understanding of what was involved.
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
Start of discussion



End of discussion.

But its not the end of the discussion because you are free to produce counter arguments and the Baha'is will generally do their best to engage in reasoned and courteous discussion.:)
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
Both of you want world peace. SGI wants everyone to follow Nichiren Shonin, chant Diamoku, and look up to Diasoku Ikeda for guidence towards world peace. I practiced with them for four years. You just say it by a different name and have god in your foundation.

How can yu build world peace and why would you change the definition of world peace for others by this new system?

The main difference is that this was Promised humanity thousands of years ago. Christians in the Lord's Prayer have been praying for God's Kingdom to come - well it's here now.
 

Vaderecta

Active Member
Clearly you don't understand karma. Firstly, it's not your ancestors, it's you, and secondly, there is no such thing as 'rich and successful' in karmic terms. In karma, 'rich and successful' would be happiness or contentment, in whatever lot you're in.

No I do, its just that definition doesn't square well with reality. I don't remember any past lives and telling children who are suffering they are going through that torment because in a past life they don't remember they were horrible people and thus deserve this tormented existence is asinine. (And cruel)
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
Possibly, if that's what the Prophets really taught - I have already demonstrated that this is unquestionably not the case for Krishna, Moses and Muhammad. And the very notion that some particular human speaks infallibly on God's behalf is by some considerable margin the most destructive and dangerous idea that has ever occurred to any human being. If that's what Bahai's believe and teach then they are (sadly) just another deluded and dangerous religious sect that insists on replacing well-established human knowledge and wisdom with the very same kind mystical and mythical mumbo jumbo that is really responsible for the mess that humanity finds itself in today. The solution is not more exclusive theocratic government but more inclusive, secular and humanistic government. If Baha'u'llah couldn't see that in the 19th century, he is not only not a divinely appointed "prophet" - he's not even a particularly wise human being. And if that statement is considered sacrilege, tough titty!

No it's not sacrilege it's your entitled opinion and view. You are being honest and that is excellent and much appreciated.

What you feel is wrong or dangerous you must reject. Moses brought the Ten Commandments which had a great effect on the entire world even to the present day for the better. Thou shalt nit kill or steal, love thy neighbour as thy self - all good stuff.
Those were the laws He came to bring for humanity at the time.

Many see the battle in the Bhagavad-Gita as the battle within the self. Ghandi certainly did. He didn't believe it was historical but that it was the concept of physical war used as an example.

I felt that it was not a historical work, but that, under the guise of physical warfare, it described the duel that perpetually went on in the hearts mankind, and that physical warfare was brought in merely to make the description of the internal duel more alluring.
The persons therein described may be historical, but the author of the Mahabharata has used them merely to drive home his religious theme.

(The Bhagavad-Gita according to Ghandi)

Then Muhammad. The Quran does not teach violence, terrorism or murder. It only teaches self defence if attacked - sura 2:190. It is against compulsion in religion and says to kill one person is to kill all mankind. But in a scenario where there were no jails, prisons, courts, police, laws or comsitituion to protect the people from mass murderers or mass rapists, penalties were harsh for such crimes committed as they had to not only punish but deter.
Misinformation has been spread about Islam using Hadiths which have no real authority. The only true authority in Islam is the Quran, nothing else.

From about 666 AD onwards the Abbasids and Umayyads began dismantling Islam's defensive nature and using the religion for wealth and power ands or conquer. But many people became Muslims simply because it was a better system that promoted education not because they were forced to. Baghdad became the centre of learning. Many sciences evolved from Islam and Muslims.

The idea of infallibility can be destructive if it comes from belief in a fallible man but a Revelation from God can only benefit humanity as God is all goodness and does not teach man evil.

Today the largest problem we have is corruption in politics. Baha'u'llah has come to bring a system which cannot be corrupted. A system where vested interests will not ever cause world wars, where justice and peace will rule not the whims of corrupt leaders. His system works if you look at the Baha'is.
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
No I do, its just that definition doesn't square well with reality. I don't remember any past lives and telling children who are suffering they are going through that torment because in a past life they don't remember they were horrible people and thus deserve this tormented existence is asinine. (And cruel)

The people who say that don't understand karma any better than you do. If they did understand karma they'd shut up, and do something charitable to help, instead of sloughing it off. I've never personally actually seen this done, but I've heard lots of people accusing others of doing it. (Usually the anti-Hindu crowd) My experience with fellow Hindus has been nothing but positive towards anyone with any kind of ability. I recently spoke at a funeral of a soul with Down's Syndrome who, in her earlier days, had a lot of trouble at a group home. But my Hindu friends legally adopted her to get her out of that mess. That's an example of the kinds of things I've seen. But yes, experiences do differ.

But each person has the right to believe whatever paradigm they wish to believe in, sensible to others or not. Karma and reincarnation make perfect sense to me, but I'm not going to sit here and argue about it all day either.
 
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loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
The Church has revelation from god and wants to make everyone a part of the body of christ. They have prophets specific to the OT and apostles and saints to acheive their goals. They are no different than you in goals other than you want to disregard their TLC which definez their and other god-religions beliefs including hinduism.

This wouldnt be a problem if these founders were not a part of your belief system.

But I had specific questions in my past posts that werent answered. Instead of repeating myself, Id like to know the answers to the questions. If you dont understand why people are offended by your religion, let me know if you are interested in my clarification. I dont feel you are.

Carlita, I try and answer every question but you make many comments and I may not have replied to every comment. Just make sure it is a question and I will try and answer it.

It's morning here now and I've maybe not answered it yet. Which post are you referring to?

The church never received a Revelation from God. There is no such thing. It all comes from the Bible. It was Jesus Who received the Revelation.
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
Both of you want world peace. SGI wants everyone to follow Nichiren Shonin, chant Diamoku, and look up to Diasoku Ikeda for guidence towards world peace. I practiced with them for four years. You just say it by a different name and have god in your foundation.

How can yu build world peace and why would you change the definition of world peace for others by this new system?

It's not just a matter of wanting world peace. The world has wanted it for a long time but been unable to establish it.

As I said there are two kinds of Peace. The political peace will improve life for the poor and so in but it will not bring happiness.

Only the System brought by Baha'u'llah can work and bring the Most Great Peace as it is God's System not man made.a man made system cannot work.
 

Vaderecta

Active Member
The people who say that don't understand karma any better than you do. If they did understand karma they'd shut up, and do something charitable to help, instead of sloughing it off. I've never personally actually seen this done, but I've heard lots of people accusing others of doing it. (Usually the anti-Hindu crowd) My experience with fellow Hindus has been nothing but positive towards anyone with any kind of ability. I recently spoke at a funeral of a soul with Down's Syndrome who, in her earlier days, had a lot of trouble at a group home. But my Hindu friends legally adopted her to get her out of that mess. That's an example of the kinds of things I've seen. But yes, experiences do differ.

But each person has the right to believe whatever paradigm they wish to believe in, sensible to others or not. Karma and reincarnation make perfect sense to me, but I'm not going to sit here and argue about it all day either.

Neither Karma or Reincarnation make any sense to me. I understand that people believe in those things in the same sense that people believe in Thor, Jesus or Shiva.

Everyone is entitled to their own religious beliefs. The idea that the belief in one of those beliefs should mean they should shut up should bring anyone pause. Free expression of ideas and thoughts is to be sought after and beliefs that imprison free expression should usually be shunned.

Just because someone doesn't believe in reincarnation or Karma doesn't mean they are anti-hindu. I don't believe in Jesus or Allah and am not anti-christian or anti-muslim.
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
Same thing.

Once the entire planet is converted to the Bahai plan, then there will be peace. Sorry, friend, but that's not how it works. The only difference here is the way to the goal. Some others of 'the religion of peace' (Islam) have tried that with violence. You guys are trying it by talking and negotiation, and yes that is a step up, but it still doesn't address the basic issue of the diversity of faith on this planet. Solidarity in diversity. Everyone agreeing to not discuss religion at all would be a lot better approach. Live and let live.

It's the system we believe will work. The system is completely different to anything humanity has known. It's not just a matter of everyone becoming a Baha'i but of the world adopting this new system. This will take centuries for people to see the Baha'i system and their system side by side in really large numbers.

Currently people can only see a small number of us and our system but when it is something like a billion then humanity can see if it is better for them or not and we believe that humanity will 'choose' it simply because it will be better for 'them'.
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
Possibly, if that's what the Prophets really taught - I have already demonstrated that this is unquestionably not the case for Krishna, Moses and Muhammad.

You are comparing apples to oranges. The 'unquestionable' means you have decided and stopped questioning.

And the very notion that some particular human speaks infallibly on God's behalf is by some considerable margin the most destructive and dangerous idea that has ever occurred to any human being.

Yet this has been the basis for the most successful religions to date.

The solution is not more exclusive theocratic government but more inclusive, secular and humanistic government.

History has clearly demonstrated that we can have exclusive secular (non-religious or antireligious) government as well.

If that's what Bahai's believe and teach then they are (sadly) just another deluded and dangerous religious sect that insists on replacing well-established human knowledge and wisdom with the very same kind mystical and mythical mumbo jumbo that is really responsible for the mess that humanity finds itself in today.

If Baha'u'llah couldn't see that in the 19th century, he is not only not a divinely appointed "prophet" - he's not even a particularly wise human being. And if that statement is considered sacrilege, tough titty!

Meaning, because Baha'is don't agree with you, then its OK to label us deluded and dangerous? I understand your frustration with the religions but the Baha'i Faith is different.
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
Neither Karma or Reincarnation make any sense to me. I understand that people believe in those things in the same sense that people believe in Thor, Jesus or Shiva.

Everyone is entitled to their own religious beliefs. The idea that the belief in one of those beliefs should mean they should shut up should bring anyone pause. Free expression of ideas and thoughts is to be sought after and beliefs that imprison free expression should usually be shunned.

Just because someone doesn't believe in reincarnation or Karma doesn't mean they are anti-hindu. I don't believe in Jesus or Allah and am not anti-christian or anti-muslim.

I never said you were. I just said that that's where I generally hear a different definition of karma than the one I use, the one that deems it the equivalent of fate. I agree with you that it could be cruel. Still hasn't been my experience.
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
SGI does not believe god is the foundation. How can you have peace when your foundations are different?

The Lesser Peace will be world peace amongst the governments and nations but not between religions. It will be a world peace but not THE world peace everyone has been waiting for.

The Most Great Peace, centuries later, will be that peace when all religions become one religion and all people as brothers and sisters. They may not believe in God now but after many centuries that may change.
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
It's the system we believe will work. The system is completely different to anything humanity has known.

Gaddafi used a similar hierarchial system in Libya, where village councils voted, then reported upward. Everyone got a say. I certainly agree that our current system of democracy is flawed. But I don't see the solution in extensive over organising either. I see it in individual change.
 
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