How are these Great Beings explained?

[loverofhumanity]

Yes it is. That's why we can have many truths, unique to each faith. It's because we have a diverse planet.

Yes definitely.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Thank you. There are more than 3 though if you check the Bahai DIR. I think in general there are more men than women on these forums. But I don't think they keep demographics either.

I suspect more women than men prefer talking to people face to face rather than through anonymous exchanges in groups such as RF.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Not according to the census takers. If that were true, the Bahais would simply state 'all of the above' and the count would come out slightly higher than the population. So adherents claim only one religion.

2011 Census of India - Wikipedia

Many from Hindu backgrounds won't say they believe in Bahá'í as well. They'll just put down Hindu.

 

[Vinayaka]

I truly admire your beliefs like non violence or ahimsa and may try to think and meditate more on it.

But that IS the problem here. Claiming you admire them, and then actually admiring them are two different things. Heck, even acknowledging the right to have different beliefs would be a step. On the surface it sounds really rosy, but then when we dig deeper we discover the opposite.

So ... I believe religions hold different truths, one from another. I know you don't agree with that, and I accept that, so maybe all I'm asking is for you to show the same acceptance.

I admire Bahai ahimsa as well.

 

[Vinayaka]

I suspect more women than men prefer talking to people face to face rather than through anonymous exchanges in groups such as RF.

Perhaps. Certainly Boss doesn't or wouldn't frequent forums.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Only it doesn't sound like you're stating that we have "equal access to the truth," it sounds like you're saying "All your myths and interpretations are wrong, we've got the real answer here."

No, you misconstrue my intention. We are being accused of stealing from other religions and all I'm saying is all religions came for all humanity equally so we have a right to believe in any religion/s we want as they are for all humanity.

We do not believe in exclusivity or superiority of one religion to the rest.

 

[Vinayaka]

Many from Hindu backgrounds won't say they believe in Bahá'í as well. They'll just put down Hindu.

And how do you know this? Conjecture? I personally believe that the entire population would be honest. India has a big history of non-persecution, and something like lying on the census would have little consequence to anyone. Would you lie on a census? I wouldn't. No reason to. Not like Bahais face persecution in India.

 

[Vinayaka]

We do not believe in exclusivity or superiority of one religion to the rest.

Yes you do ... for yourself. Every religious person does. I think Hinduism is the greatest religion on this planet ... for me. If I didn't, I'd convert quicker than a cat can jump at a mouse.

 

[loverofhumanity]

But that IS the problem here. Claiming you admire them, and then actually admiring them are two different things. Heck, even acknowledging the right to have different beliefs would be a step. On the surface it sounds really rosy, but then when we dig deeper we discover the opposite.

So ... I believe religions hold different truths, one from another. I know you don't agree with that, and I accept that, so maybe all I'm asking is for you to show the same acceptance.

I admire Bahai ahimsa as well.

I think we're agreeing in principle. I don't think we disagree but maybe are misunderstanding each other.

Of course you have the right to have different beliefs. Who said you didn't? Freedom of belief is something we belueve in very strongly.

Of course I accept everyone has different beliefs. I just also think we have lots in common.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I'm kinda interested in my comment 1584. That one floored me.

My overall point:

1. There are many truths not one

2. Each truth is shaped and embedded in traditions, language, and culture

3. Unless you take interest in TLC, you will not understand it.

The fact you say 'nonody else's truth'? Who's truth? No one owns Teri the so we can't say it is someone 'els's truth' to steal or take away like the light of the sun which belongs to all humanity.

1. These are many truths

A Hindu's truth maybe Vishnu
Prophet religions truths is interpreted by their prophets
My truth comes from my ancestors
A Pagan's truth may come from the gods
A Buddhist truth comes from the Dharma
A Catholic's truth is Christ

2. Each truth is shaped by traditions, language, and culture.

Jewish and Muslim religions (and I assume hindu?) value prayer if not considered sacred to pray in their own language of that prophet. Translations are not the same. This is not just an expression. It is embedded in their spiritual truth.

This is not your truth nor my truth. It is theirs.

2. Likewise with tradition. You disregard tradition as man-made doctrine/dogma.

You cannot be Catholic regardless if you were raised one without believing in and experiencing personally the doctrine and dogma. How do you separate yourself from that experience and look at it so negatively? That makes me think you have not experienced it just went through rituals and indoctrination.

3. Culture: What we learn from our environment, family, community and so forth are embedded in our traditions, beliefs, and practices. For example:

If there is one truth, why be Bahai? Why have a house of worship? Why not go in the park instead, on the street corner, at Mc Donalds? Some things actually mean things to you and they are called culture and traditions. They are man-made. It's not a dirty word.

You don't have a secret chest where you own any special truth that I can't have because truth belongs to all. You are putting truth in a box labelling it 'mine' and saying Baha'is can't have it.

1. You're thinking we are hiding one truth when there are many.

2. Each truth is embedded in traditions, language, and culture.

And because they are, that is why people can "own" truth. You can't go onto a native american reservation and expect to be Cherokee because you share the same goals. Being in a Hindu temple made me no more Hindu than a Buddhist going in that same temple to use the area for their festivals.

TLC goes beyond the spirit. It shapes the spirit. It defines the spirit. Without it, it's all new age. It isn't one truth anymore when you take TLC out. There's nothing. Like you just took humans and scraped them off the universe or something.

You don't own truth. We all own it.

What truth do we own?

Mystical experiences aren't truths, they are experiences. Atheist have their unique experience just as I do and a Hawaiian does. So, what is this mystical experience and how do you know it is one truth when the rest of the world knows it is not. Even Universalist know this and they are Universalist.

I don't think you're understanding it. We are saying upyes there are the different coloured of a rainbow but then there's the rainbow as a whole. There is one rainbow with many colours. Each colour of the rainbow is not a rainbow in itself which is what you're saying.

You are saying all colors are expressions and are not important as the rainbow itself. We are saying the colors are what makes up the rainbow and if you don't understand the individual colors, the rainbow (humanity and diversity) won't make much sense to you.

Rainbow: Humanity and diversity
Colors: Different truths
Their connection: We're all human

We own truths by shared experiences, beliefs, and practices. You said you are not Hindu one post and said you are another. So the last post, you said you weren't Hindu. Of course you're not yellow, you're orange. Why keep insisting you are the rainbow when you are one color of many?

There is diversity of language custom and tradition but spiritually we are one. We see both oneness and diversity.

Nope. Spirituality is defined by language, custom, and tradition. So they are embedded in each other. Oneness and diversity are opposites.

If you see diversity, understand spirituality is diverse as well not just their expressions.

Yes but we all speak the alphabet and you don't own x and I don't own y. We each have access to all the letters.

Okay, we won't use "own."

Hindu are Hindu because they share the same experiences, traditions, beliefs, and culture.

Muslims are the same but have different TLC.

Catholics have different TLC as do Buddhists.

Which means they have different truths. You have not experienced what it means to be a Hindu. So you do not hold Hindu truths. That's a fact no matter how metaphoric you make it seem.

Christians like to say they have Chrust and unless we believe and interpret exactly as they do then we can't have Christ. That's preposterous an assumption of monopoly.

I know you disagree with it, but if you don't agree that Christ is the only way-not Buddha, Bahaullah, Zorastar, and Krishna, you are not Christian. They are completely black and white. You are not.

Stop making yourself fit into everyone else's religion.

Our diversity does not lie in the spiritual world but in the bodily world and in outward forms such as speech, clothes, culture and tradition.

Spiritual world is diverse because the TLC is diverse. TLC is diverse because the spirituality is diverse.

Do you understand?

We have both diversity and things in common we share such as spirituality, we are more than just mere animals, we have a spiritual reality also. That us what we have in common and that we are all humans.

We don't share the same spirituality.

Name one spiritual concept or experience @Vinayaka has that is the same as Bahaullah and the same as a Christian.

The diverse elements are outward not inward.

Both are one and the same. Can't separate them. None are lesser. They are spirituality.

If you experienced Catholicism, you would know this. You don't.

Please read this in full.

 

[Vinayaka]

I think we're agreeing in principle. I don't think we disagree but maybe are misunderstanding each other.

Of course you have the right to have different beliefs. Who said you didn't? Freedom of belief is something we belueve in very strongly.

Of course I accept everyone has different beliefs. I just also think we have lots in common.

No I don't think we are agreeing in principle. We disagree on a lot of things. That does not mean I'm right and you're wrong, just an acceptance of differences. We differ. Hindus see all religions as VALID. What works for one person doesn't work for another. You''e saying (correct me if I'm wrong) that at the core all religions are the SAME. SAME and VALID are two entirely different concepts. If they were the same, then you could easily drop Bahai and switch to Hinduism, or as Carlita put it, find truth at MacDonalds.

I actually don't believe the two paradigms, east and west, will ever truly understand each other. Respect, yes. But that is in your name here.

 

[loverofhumanity]

And how do you know this? Conjecture? I personally believe that the entire population would be honest. India has a big history of non-persecution, and something like lying on the census would have little consequence to anyone. Would you lie on a census? I wouldn't. No reason to. Not like Bahais face persecution in India.

No but family tradition can be very strong. We need to consider things like that. Family tradition may be Hindu. How many will break from the entire family and say they're Bahá'í? Employer and employee another sensitive area. Especially where poverty is prevalent.

I think there are many circumstances where ther would be dear to openly declare oneself a Baha'i on census openly. Not sue to opporession or persecution but just not wanting to go against the flow.

The also there is the fact that how many really became Baha'is when the the teachers taught in the villages? Maybe they said they were at the time but forgot about it later and didn't see it as a life changer.

And also Baha'is enthusiasm to see growth would have been positive and maybe overly so instead of realistic hoping that these new Baha'is would become stronger but they maybe never were visited again so they fell back to being Hindus.

I don't believe basicallay that people deliberately lied or covered up things because we are taught things like.

"Truthfulness is the foundation of all virtues and without it progress in all the worlds of God is impossible".

So Baha'is who are sincere would never be involved in something that would destroy their own souls so to speak. It would have had to be ignorant Baha'is, and there are many of us who would try to do this but most Baha'is would know to attempt something like this humanity would only expose it so there would be no point.

 

[loverofhumanity]

No I don't think we are agreeing in principle. We disagree on a lot of things. That does not mean I'm right and you're wrong, just an acceptance of differences. We differ. Hindus see all religions as VALID. What works for one person doesn't work for another. You''e saying (correct me if I'm wrong) that at the core all religions are the SAME. SAME and VALID are two entirely different concepts. If they were the same, then you could easily drop Bahai and switch to Hinduism, or as Carlita put it, find truth at MacDonalds.

I actually don't believe the two paradigms, east and west, will ever truly understand each other. Respect, yes. But that is in your name here.

We only say that all truth comes from the same source. Yes we see that God has revealed all religions to humanity through a Manifestation at some point even before Hinduism but that their names were lost.

 

[Vinayaka]

No but family tradition can be very strong. We need to consider things like that. Family tradition may be Hindu. How many will break from the entire family and say they're Bahá'í? Employer and employee another sensitive area. Especially where poverty is prevalent.

I think there are many circumstances where ther would be dear to openly declare oneself a Baha'i on census openly. Not sue to opporession or persecution but just not wanting to go against the flow.

The also there is the fact that how many really became Baha'is when the the teachers taught in the villages? Maybe they said they were at the time but forgot about it later and didn't see it as a life changer.

And also Baha'is enthusiasm to see growth would have been positive and maybe overly so instead of realistic hoping that these new Baha'is would become stronger but they maybe never were visited again so they fell back to being Hindus.

I don't believe basicallay that people deliberately lied or covered up things because we are taught things like.

"Truthfulness is the foundation of all virtues and without it progress in all the worlds of God is impossible".

So Baha'is who are sincere would never be involved in something that would destroy their own souls so to speak. It would have had to be ignorant Baha'is, and there are many of us who would try to do this but most Baha'is would know to attempt something like this humanity would only expose it so there would be no point.

So have you changed your mind now, claiming they would say Bahai? Earlier you claimed that Bahais born Hindu would say Hindu when they were actually Bahai.

 

[Vinayaka]

We only say that all truth comes from the same source. Yes we see that God has revealed all religions to humanity through a Manifestation at some point even before Hinduism but that their names were lost.

Yes that is your belief. I believe differently. This takes us right back to square one, when I jumped in and told you that Hindus don't believe in manifestations. I still don't. I DO NOT believe that all truth comes from the same source. Truths vary. That is like saying both milk and water come from the well and from the cow. Sorry, but you get water from the well, and milk from a cow.

 

[loverofhumanity]

So have you changed your mind now, claiming they would say Bahai? Earlier you claimed that Bahais born Hindu would say Hindu when they were actually Bahai.

So have you changed your mind now, claiming they would say Bahai? Earlier you claimed that Bahais born Hindu would say Hindu when they were actually Bahai.

I've always said they would say they are Hindu. Maybe you misread my post? I've always thought that tradition would have them wanting to say they are Hindus not Bahá'í.

In countries where tradition is very strong it's more likely a Baha'i might not openly say he is a Baha'i except in countries like America where tradition is not that strong. Did I leave out the word America? Sorry if I did.

To clear it up most countries with strong traditions I think those Baha'is who are fairly new would not say they are Baha'is but Hindu.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Yes that is your belief. I believe differently. This takes us right back to square one, when I jumped in and told you that Hindus don't believe in manifestations. I still don't. I DO NOT believe that all truth comes from the same source. Truths vary. That is like saying both milk and water come from the well and from the cow. Sorry, but you get water from the well, and milk from a cow.

I accept that you don't believe that. And I fully respect that. From what I do know of your beliefs I like them and see them as truth and valid.

However, at the time I wasn't aware you belonged to a sect of Hinduism that doesn't accept Avatars so I kept referring to Avatars. Now I do I am more acutely aware of it and try to respect that. I may forget at times but I am aware of it more now.

 

[Vinayaka]

I've always said they would say they are Hindu. Maybe you misread my post? I've always thought that tradition would have them wanting to say they are Hindus not Bahá'í.

In countries where tradition is very strong it's more likely a Baha'i might not openly say he is a Baha'i except in countries like America where tradition is not that strong. Did I leave out the word America? Sorry if I did.

To clear it up most countries with strong traditions I think those Baha'is who are fairly new would not say they are Baha'is but Hindu.

I don't believe they would, as I said before. There is no reason for that. India is a fair country where there is little persecution. (Any 'persecution' that happens is when religions do sneaky conversion tactics, and the locals don't like it.) Pakistan is another matter entirely. Heck I wouldn't say I was a Hindu there.

There is a long history of religions attempting to distort their numbers. On all the sites I could find about India, the Bahai claimed around 200 000 whereas all others, the anti-Bahai and the neutral figured around 10 000. But that's not unique to Bahai either. Proud religionists everywhere will distort their numbers, its pretty normal.

 

[Vinayaka]

I accept that you don't believe that. And I fully respect that. From what I do know of your beliefs I like them and see them as truth and valid.

However, at the time I wasn't aware you belonged to a sect of Hinduism that doesn't accept Avatars so I kept referring to Avatars. Now I do I am more acutely aware of it and try to respect that. I may forget at times but I am aware of it more now.

So you are like the taxi driver ... what you say about religion changes according to the person you're talking to. I haven't actually convinced you at all, but you'll agree just so you don't insult me. That seems a tad insincere to what you actually believe.

You can't possibly see my belief as truth. I don't believe in the divinity of Baha'u'llah for example. Please don't tell me you agree with me on that.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Yes you do ... for yourself. Every religious person does. I think Hinduism is the greatest religion on this planet ... for me. If I didn't, I'd convert quicker than a cat can jump at a mouse.

We are taught not to. It's very clear in the Words of Baha'u'llah. It's not just a gesture but a very firm law.