How are these Great Beings explained?

[Vinayaka]

We are taught not to. It's very clear in the Words of Baha'u'llah. It's not just a gesture but a very firm law.

Then become a Hindu. After all, it doesn't matter. I can recommend the book, 'How to Become a Hindu"

 

[loverofhumanity]

So you are like the taxi driver ... what you say about religion changes according to the person you're talking to. I haven't actually convinced you at all, but you'll agree just so you don't insult me. That seems a tad insincere to what you actually believe.

No. I say I am a Baha'i to all. That never changes. I'm not the taxi driver who changes his religion 5 times a day to apoease so as to get a better tip. I always to everyone I am a Baha'i.

It's not insincere as I told you about Avatars until you told me it offended you. So I stopped talking about it.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Then become a Hindu. After all, it doesn't matter. I can recommend the book, 'How to Become a Hindu"

I think that there would be more that I would agree with in a book like that than disagree.

But I'm not the taxi driver who changes religion to get a better tip. I am a Baha'i.

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

No, you misconstrue my intention. We are being accused of stealing from other religions and all I'm saying is all religions came for all humanity equally so we have a right to believe in any religion/s we want as they are for all humanity.

We do not believe in exclusivity or superiority of one religion to the rest.

So basically religious "Manifest Destiny"? "We can use all these beliefs and cultures because we're all humans"?

 

[Vinayaka]

No. I say I am a Baha'i to all. That never changes. I'm not the taxi driver who changes his religion 5 times a day to apoease so as to get a better tip. I always to everyone I am a Baha'i.

It's not insincere as I told you about Avatars until you told me it offended you. So I stopped talking about it.

It didn't offend me. It was just you stating your belief and me stating I didn't believe that.

 

[loverofhumanity]

It didn't offend me. It was just you stating your belief and me stating I didn't believe that.

Then it was a bad connection. We weren't in the same page.

 

[Dawnofhope]

They don't. It was forced conversion because the native Pagans in rome, some, didn't want to convert to christianity. Catholics killed them because of it. Then, as years went on, more pagan teachings became embedded in Catholicism (aka Roman Catholic Church). Christianity is in part Roman. Even the Church was the one who decided which books are inspired not the apostles.

Sure. That's all established history.

I don't know. Never liked the term. Most Native Americans I've met want you to call them by their tribal name. Cherokee, Blackfoot, etc. I don't know them all, though.

I think indigenous beliefs is simply an easy way to group the religions of indigenous peoples together. I don't see why it is disrespectful. Abrahamic Faiths is another grouping.

Lutheran, Episcopalian, Presbyterian still have Catholic teachings. Robes, Colors. Things that are not Jewish. Southern Baptist still "Stand up, sit down" like Catholics. White robes. Different mannerisms that stuck from Catholicism. Jehovah's Witness interestingly enough have rituals even though they say they don't. Every religion has culture. Protestants branched off from Catholicism.

Wouldn't it make sense some of their practices are still Catholic even though they don't admit it?

The resurrection concept probably had Roman influences as it was Paul's words in 1 Corinthians 15 that had the most influence.

Don't think so. I just don't think you and especially loverofhumanity are understanding what it means to cross one's boundaries and respecting beliefs.
What do you mean? Can't see the connection.

God reveals himself through Moses.
Then when He reveals Himself through Jesus He refers to OT.
Then when God reveals Himself through Baha'u'llah He refers to the Bible.
The connection seems clear to me.

You can't separate teachings from sacraments. That's deconstructing religion.

What's wrong with deconstructing religion? The Jewish temple sacraments ended. Eventually so will the church sacraments. That doesn't deny their importance or significance. Jesus made an interesting statement about not putting new wine into old wineskins. What would happen? They would burst! Matthew 9:17

If there are the same goals in all religions, wouldn't all the religions be the same as yours?

Why would we need Bahuallah? That's religion. Take out religion and focus on the goals.

I understand the question now. The answer is "No".

Religion is progressive. Like the education of children in a school, we need teachers for the different grades. It's all education, but one teacher builds on another. Should we accuse the grade 2 teacher of culturally misappropriating the grade 1 teachings?

Dogma/Doctrine doesn't cause harm. People cause harm in the name of their doctrine

Jesus taught not to put dogma/doctrine over the father. He didn't teach not to have dogma/doctrine all together. That's disregarding a lot of practices that are embedded in the teachings of the prophets, christ, and apostles.

Both cause harm.

(False) Dogma/doctrine cause confusion and misunderstanding. This sets the scene to act in ways that are not in accordance with the Sacred Texts.

Can't figure out a better word. You are putting, I''ll say Muhammad, into your teachings when Islam does not support Bahai. I honestly don't see scripture supporting Bahai (as in Bahaullah's teachings) but that's me. The Hindu one shocked me to tell you honestly. But that's my isolated comment on that.

Judaism did not support Christianity. Should Christianity be disbanded on grounds of cultural misappropriation? No.

Not all Bahai are Christian. I notice other Bahai who aren't christian feel that Bahaullah is promised from other religions, christianity included. Just saying that and practitioners correcting Bahai is cultural appropriation. You are appropriating teachings of another religion, saying that religion does X when it does Y, and saying because of Y (though it's X) you guys have the same foundation without mutual agreement between both parties.

Can't ask you to have mutual agreement with yourself. Though scripture doesn't support Bahuallah.

The Jews did not believe scripture supported Christ and most Jews will claim that not a single OT verse refers to Him. I believe the Jews are wrong and the Christians are right about the Jewish messiah, Christ.

Because I know and studied the Bible. I'm not an academic and bad memory. I experienced the Bible. Experiencing is a lot better than studying, I tell you.

Both are necessary. I agree that experiencing the Bible is the best. However at some point we need to study it to. If we don't then what is our foundation? Matthew 7:24-27

I don't understand. Bahai has the same relationship as these religions?

From Moses to Jesus, and then from Jesus to Baha'u'llah. I know you don't agree with it, but the connection is clear and straightforward.

That's the heart of my disagreement. I don't care for religious to interpret other religions and incorporating their interpretations into their own.

Its a new Revelation distinct from Christianity, as Christianity was a new Revelation distinct from Judaism

I agree with the first part. Your friend Loverofhumanity doesn't quote agree the latter is an opinion. Some like modern others like traditional. Why do they need to adapt? That's disrespecting other religious need for tradition.

I think its a fact of life, rather than disrespect. Eventually the old gives way to the new.

Huh?

I said that you put the founder and the message into your religion as a Bahai. I mean, if you just had the founder, that's odd in itself but understandable. Since you put their message and their message contradict, you're kind of contradicting them both. They can't be separated.

Gotta give me an example.

The message is God's message. Baha'u'llah and Christ are the messengers.

 

[Vinayaka]

I think that there would be more that I would agree with in a book like that than disagree.

Yes, you could pretend. You would disagree with a lot, I'm sure.

But my point remains, if all religions are the same, why not become a Catholic, why not become a Muslim or a Buddhist? The very fact that you declare yourself a Bahai indicates there are differences in truths. Your truth lies in being a Bahai.

 

[loverofhumanity]

So basically religious "Manifest Destiny"? "We can use all these beliefs and cultures because we're all humans"?

I'm not sure if I understand what you mean by Manifest Destiny?

Anyway the west could do with some good Buddhist meditation to ckear our minds of trash we have accumulated and the west can share its sciences with the east so eastern people can live better.

All these things are meant to be 'shared' for the benefit of everyone. That's my humble understanding.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Yes, you could pretend. You would disagree with a lot, I'm sure.

But my point remains, if all religions are the same, why not become a Catholic, why not become a Muslim or a Buddhist? The very fact that you declare yourself a Bahai indicates there are differences in truths. Your truth lies in being a Bahai.

I said one common foundation or one in spirit or one in essence. I did make clear we accept that they have diverse forms of worship and outward practices. The clothes are different but the soul is the same.

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

I'm not sure if I understand what you mean by Manifest Destiny?

Anyway the west could do with some good Buddhist meditation to ckear our minds of trash we have accumulated and the west can share its sciences with the east so eastern people can live better.

All these things are meant to be 'shared' for the benefit of everyone. That's my humble understanding.

First it needs to be proven that "Western minds" are "filled with trash." I often find myself balking at the mystic outlook that several people have regarding both Eastern religions and indigenous American beliefs, and their claims to be either born of fanciful misunderstanding, or just complete idealistic garbage.

And what I mean by Manifest Destiny is that just like Christians laid claim to everything under the sun while expanding westward, your statements seem to make the same motions. Everything is fair game for Baha'i to use as they see fit, because "we're all humans" and all religion is human-made.

Not everything is meant to be shared, and certainly not for everyone. This cult of No Identity that is sweeping the modern world is an affront to the diversity that it claims to preserve, and does nothing good for the world by homogenizing everything.

 

[loverofhumanity]

First it needs to be proven that "Western minds" are "filled with trash." I often find myself balking at the mystic outlook that several people have regarding both Eastern religions and indigenous American beliefs, and their claims to be either born of fanciful misunderstanding, or just complete idealistic garbage.

And what I mean by Manifest Destiny is that just like Christians laid claim to everything under the sun while expanding westward, your statements seem to make the same motions. Everything is fair game for Baha'i to use as they see fit, because "we're all humans" and all religion is human-made.

Not everything is meant to be shared, and certainly not for everyone. This cult of No Identity that is sweeping the modern world is an affront to the diversity that it claims to preserve, and does nothing good for the world by homogenizing everything.

I said the west can offer sciences to the east and improve the lives of others so I didn't mean we are all trash but I meant we need to find more spiritual values which the east has in abundance.

We need an identity and diversity but I'm not sure what this cult of no identity that is sweeping the planet is. Are you speaking about westernism because it is sweeping the planet?

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I said the west can offer sciences to the east and improve the lives of others so I didn't mean we are all trash but I meant we need to find more spiritual values which the east has in abundance.

They have scientists in "the East" (East Asia is a world leader in scientific endeavor) and we have spiritual values in the West.

 

[loverofhumanity]

They have scientists in "the East" (East Asia is a world leader in scientific endeavor) and we have spiritual values in the West.

We can always exchange ours for theirs. There is always a problem that one country has solved that another cannot.

I'm Australian. I lived in Burma for 5 years. The technology between the countries is astounding. We have had 24/7 electricity they still don't. It's a matter of us helping them implement things we're better at which are some technologies and sciences.

 

[loverofhumanity]

But truths are different. You do hold a monopoly on Bahai's version of truth, because it is uniquely Bahai and non Bahais don't want it, because we have our own.

I suppose you also own my car?

No we don't. It is for all. Anyone can incorporate Bahá'í teachings, books or beliefs into their system if they like. We'd be honoured.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

We can always exchange ours for theirs. There is always a problem that one country has solved that another cannot.

I'm Australian. I lived in Burma for 5 years. The technology between the countries is astounding. We have had 24/7 electricity they still don't. It's a matter of us helping them implement things we're better at which are some technologies and sciences.

Sure, we should help developing nations with their material needs but I fail to see how we need Eastern religion in the West, as if we're deficient. I find that insulting, actually, as if Dharmic religions are somehow superior, spiritually, to Abrahamic religions.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Sure, we should help developing nations with their material needs but I fail to see how we need Eastern religion in the West, as if we're deficient. I find that insulting, actually, as if Dharmic religions are somehow superior, spiritually, to Abrahamic religions.

We can all learn from each other is what I am saying, surely we can't say our culture is perfect and can't learn from any other culture in the world.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Yes, you could pretend. You would disagree with a lot, I'm sure.

But my point remains, if all religions are the same, why not become a Catholic, why not become a Muslim or a Buddhist? The very fact that you declare yourself a Bahai indicates there are differences in truths. Your truth lies in being a Bahai.

Of course there are differences but also we have things in common.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

We can all learn from each other is what I am saying, surely we can't say our culture is perfect and can't learn from any other culture in the world.

Nope, no culture is perfect. Dharmic religions aren't perfect or superior, either. Maybe they could use some help from Abrahamic religions to correct their shortcomings.

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

I said the west can offer sciences to the east and improve the lives of others so I didn't mean we are all trash but I meant we need to find more spiritual values which the east has in abundance.

As Frankenstein has touched on, "the West" does not need any more spirituality than it has already. From the now present Middle Eastern beliefs to the native faiths that are rising again, we have just as much spirituality as is needed.

The "cult of no identity" that I'm talking about is the notion that you hinted at that "we're all human", as though that's supposed to supersede all culture, rather than underline it. "See them as a human first, before male, black, Kemetic, etc". It's preposterous, and insulting to cultural identity. We may all be humans, but that far from unites us. Even wolves fight amongst themselves.