How are these Great Beings explained?

[The Kilted Heathen]

Somehow the effects of politics have a considerably less effect on Hinduism, Buddhism, Jainism, and Taoism than on the Revealed religions.

(Sorry Vinayaka)

Somehow I doubt this, very much. Why else would Buddhists destroy temples, why would Hinduism have the classes of people that it does? Eastern religions are not perfect; they are people, just like us, not Paragons.

 

[CG Didymus]

...God reveals himself through Moses.
Then when He reveals Himself through Jesus He refers to OT.
Then when God reveals Himself through Baha'u'llah He refers to the Bible.
The connection seems clear to me. ...

Yes, there is a direct connection between those religions. Those religions have similarities. Now why didn't Moses refer to Buddha or Krishna? No, what does the God talking to Moses say? He calls himself the God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob. The God of Israel and other things. Does he ever say I am the God of the Egyptian religion, or the Philistines, or the Babylonians? No, he's the enemy of those religions and calls them false because they worship idols.

But does Christianity really say about the message Moses brought? It doesn't say it is equal. It says if a person doesn't accept Jesus they are lost and will be cast into hellfire. So we do have the next religion saying it is superior than the previous. And we have religions saying their God is the true one and all the other religions have false gods. How do you explain that?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

The different Manifestations are but different expressions of truth just like your paintings are expressions of yourself

Each "manifestation" has their Own truth not mine and not yours.

These are separate Artists with their own art work

And they are not combined at the hip by time periods.

 

[CG Didymus]

Yes, you could pretend. You would disagree with a lot, I'm sure.

But my point remains, if all religions are the same, why not become a Catholic, why not become a Muslim or a Buddhist? The very fact that you declare yourself a Bahai indicates there are differences in truths. Your truth lies in being a Bahai.

The taxi driver is such a good analogy. When I've talked to them about what Christians believe, they use the misinterpretation and adding of traditions to the "original" words and teachings of Christ as the reason why Christianity is no longer right. But then if, from the beginning of Christianity they had those beliefs, then from the beginning Christianity was wrong.

But then they'll flip things around and say how "beautiful" Christianity is? How they "love" to read the Bible? To learn what? 'Cause if pressed, I don't think they really believe the words in the Bible are all that accurate. Yet, they quote it to prove they are the new true religion.

To find ways to show a progression in the Abrahamic religions is difficult enough, but you throw a monkey wrench in the whole mix with Hinduism. If someone told me there is a relationship between the religions from India. I'd say sure, I could see a connection. Would I say the God of Abraham is the source of those religions? I'd say no, I don't think so. So what is the source? How did they "progress" into the different versions of Hinduism. How did Buddhism and Jainism come about? What is their relationship to Hinduism?

Even within a religion like Hinduism or Christianity, are all sects equally true? I know that almost all Christian sects believe they are superior, or believe they are the only right ones. No equality there. The only equality I've ever seen, and a respect for other beliefs, is in the liberal versions of the different religions. The liberal believers in any religion don't take their own religion as the only truth. They believe in love and equality and the "golden rule" as more important. Those people do put aside dividing dogma and find the commonalities in the other religions.

But what have they really done? They've come to the point to where they don't believe in the literal truth of their religion any more. But I've seen it when one of those people joined the Baha'i Faith. A friend become a Baha'i, but a "liberal" Baha'i. First thing she had to do was sign a "declaration" card. What kind of "spiritual" experience is that? She was such a free spirit, that she didn't fit in well with the Baha'i rules. Which to some of us could also be called the "D" word, dogma. Anyway, she dropped out, but not before she had to serve on the Baha'i community governing body, the "Local Spiritual Assembly". It was a business meeting... minutes, Robert's rules of order, and talking about organizing a picnic. Definitely not what she expected.

 

[Esoqq]

(Sorry Vinayaka)

Somehow I doubt this, very much. Why else would Buddhists destroy temples, why would Hinduism have the classes of people that it does? Eastern religions are not perfect; they are people, just like us, not Paragons.

What I said was that the Eastern religions are less likely than the Revealed religions to be corrupted by politics, not that they were perfect. Spiritual values are the origin of religions but they don't immunized their respective religions from becoming corrupt as people become more and more separated from it's founder.

 

[Vinayaka]

I've researched the Major Religions, including Hinduism, and one thing I've found among them all is that over time they shift their focus from the spiritual truth that was their source and refocus their attention on the social laws. This, along with political corruption, alters the message of the religion into one of intolerance and conflict.
The exceptions to politics turning religions into sources of violence, for the most part, are the eastern religions. Somehow the effects of politics have a considerably less effect on Hinduism, Buddhism, Jainism, and Taoism than on the Revealed religions.
The passage of time however does have an effect on the Eastern religions as well since the human mind is constantly evolving and new understandings are uncovered making social laws less reasonable and questionable and soon people are obeying because the clergy insist you must and not because they are still relevant. This, in my opinion, is why the Manifestation pops up from time to time. While the Spiritual teachings remain the same their importance need to be reiterated.
Most people, in their hearts, instinctively understand the true teachings of their religion, which is Love of God and Love of One Another.

Aum Sivaya,

Although they have all been addressed already in this thread, many several times. So its rather redundant.
Has your research involved any sources besides the Bahai sources? Most of the Bahai sources are misleading because they are insufficient, or don't really understand Hinduism. Discussion, without understanding, can turn out to be fruitless.

Hindus don't need any 'manifestations. nor do many of us believe in any such thing. We've been on this planet successfully for at least 5000 years, probably longer, uninterrupted since the Vedic age, and are a billion strong. We have historically welcomed all other religious adherents to Mother India with open arms and non-interference. Your small faith, on the other hand has been around no where near as long and is about 5 million strong. I think, from that alone, we need to reconsider who should be preaching at who here. That is my opinion.

Aum Namasivaya

 

[Vinayaka]

Who is Boss?

My wife of 42 years. (Well not quite, soon though.) It's an affectionate term.

 

[Vinayaka]

What I said was that the Eastern religions are less likely than the Revealed religions to be corrupted by politics, not that they were perfect. Spiritual values are the origin of religions but they don't immunized their respective religions from becoming corrupt as people become more and more separated from it's founder.

Eastern religions, and western religions operate on two totally different levels, with neither being able to relate much to the other. Bahais, as another Bahai here has pointed out, would be well suited to stick with the Abrahamic flock. rather than go where they think they understand, but prove over and over that they don't, Paganism is different again, but I'm guessing, if we went into it we'd see it to be somewhat closer to the dharmic faiths. I don't see that happening, though, as Ragin Pagan and I can respect each other without 37 pages of discussion.

 

[Vinayaka]

But then they'll flip things around and say how "beautiful" Christianity is? How they "love" to read the Bible? To learn what? 'Cause if pressed, I don't think they really believe the words in the Bible are all that accurate. Yet, they quote it to prove they are the new true religion.

Double talk. Yes, I have that figured out now. Too bad it took me this long. But in terms of this world, and where we're going, its the least of our concerns.

 

[Vinayaka]

What I said was that the Eastern religions are less likely than the Revealed religions to be corrupted by politics, not that they were perfect. Spiritual values are the origin of religions but they don't immunized their respective religions from becoming corrupt as people become more and more separated from it's founder.

Correction: Hinduism doesn't have a founder.

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

What I said was that the Eastern religions are less likely than the Revealed religions to be corrupted by politics,

And... how do you figure this? A different manner of corruption does not mean that there's less of a chance.

Paganism is different again, but I'm guessing, if we went into it we'd see it to be somewhat closer to the dharmic faiths. I don't see that happening, though, as Ragin Pagan and I can respect each other without 37 pages of discussion.

In fact, it only took 19 posts.

 

[CG Didymus]

I've researched the Major Religions, including Hinduism, and one thing I've found among them all is that over time they shift their focus from the spiritual truth that was their source and refocus their attention on the social laws. This, along with political corruption, alters the message of the religion into one of intolerance and conflict.
The exceptions to politics turning religions into sources of violence, for the most part, are the eastern religions. Somehow the effects of politics have a considerably less effect on Hinduism, Buddhism, Jainism, and Taoism than on the Revealed religions.
The passage of time however does have an effect on the Eastern religions as well since the human mind is constantly evolving and new understandings are uncovered making social laws less reasonable and questionable and soon people are obeying because the clergy insist you must and not because they are still relevant. This, in my opinion, is why the Manifestation pops up from time to time. While the Spiritual teachings remain the same their importance need to be reiterated.
Most people, in their hearts, instinctively understand the true teachings of their religion, which is Love of God and Love of One Another.

Yeah, another Baha'i to join the fun. Now for some questions for you. You say "revealed" religions: could you define that? Especially focusing how the "revealed" religions differ from the others.

Since it is often brought up, Hinduism was not founded by anyone but still gets attributed to Krishna. So where did it come from? Why does it change? Was it tied to the culture and the way India was governed? Not only in Hinduism, but in other religions that had a major influence on the governing of the people, how and why has that changed? 'Cause it seems like ancient religions were everything to the people. Rulers, priests, daily life, everything was part of the religion wasn't it?

Then, something changed. Questioning and doubting... seeing that religious rules weren't just and equal to all people. So what I'm thinking is that ancient religions were more a construct of some people to maintain and control and keep order in their societies. Since I don't think the Baha'is believe in a "Rain God" or "War God" etc, then where did these concepts come from? I'm thinking people... That early religion was invented by people... not "revealed" by a manifestation.

Like I've been saying some religions have animal sacrifices, some even human sacrifices, which manifestation authorized that? As unbelievable to me, it was the supposed "True" God. He told his people to sacrifice animals.

Some manifestations are so wrapped up in myth and legend that it is hard to believe they ever even existed... and that includes Jesus. And what's more hard to swallow, God is invisible. Where is he? He walked and spoke in the Bible. Why not now?

So what do we got? Different religions, with different stories and beliefs and you, the Baha'i, saying that all this is from one God and is part of a systematic progression. Good luck. It would have been much easier to say that all the religions are wrong and that a new messenger from the true God has come to set things straight. Wait, that is, in essence, what you are saying.

The Baha'i loop holes: Original teachings and words of the manifestations are what is true. Except where are they, and what were they? The leaders of the religion misinterpreted those "original" teachings. They took symbolic things as literal. So none of the religions, as practiced today, are true. They are all wrong. And you, the Baha'is have the real truth from God. Except you do, somehow, believe and see the truth in all religions?

What is that truth? The love of God and to love one another? That is so Abrahamic. And even in the Abrahamic religions, they killed other people for having false gods. Where's the love? But the big point is... there was such a thing as a false religion, not all were true.

Anyway, so glad you're here and joined the conversation.

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

Like I've been saying some religions have animal sacrifices, some even human sacrifices, which manifestation authorized that? As unbelievable to me, it was the supposed "True" God. He told his people to sacrifice animals.

Such sacrifice existed before monotheism and the god of Abraham, though.

 

[CG Didymus]

Each "manifestation" has their Own truth not mine and not yours.

These are separate Artists with their own art work

And they are not combined at the hip by time periods.

The thing that I see is that some of these people, called "manifestation" by Baha'is, were ordinary people... Buddha, Moses, and some others. Some were thought to be "God in the flesh" like Krishna and Jesus. Regardless, they all "painted" a picture that reflected that culture. So that's the stickler for me... Were these "Great Beings" telling what the One True God said? Or, were they connecting to a deeper spiritual self and they had a "revelation" that was based on their traditions and prior beliefs? I'm especially thinking of Buddha with this, since he had nothing to do with the Abrahamic concept of God.

 

[Esoqq]

Aum Sivaya,

Although they have all been addressed already in this thread, many several times. So its rather redundant.
Has your research involved any sources besides the Bahai sources? Most of the Bahai sources are misleading because they are insufficient, or don't really understand Hinduism. Discussion, without understanding, can turn out to be fruitless.

Hindus don't need any 'manifestations. nor do many of us believe in any such thing. We've been on this planet successfully for at least 5000 years, probably longer, uninterrupted since the Vedic age, and are a billion strong. We have historically welcomed all other religious adherents to Mother India with open arms and non-interference. Your small faith, on the other hand has been around no where near as long and is about 5 million strong. I think, from that alone, we need to reconsider who should be preaching at who here. That is my opinion.

Aum Namasivaya

 

[Esoqq]

Actually, almost all my investigations occurred prior to my introduction to the Baha'i faith. It's because the Faith agrees with my own findings that I first got interested and started researching it.
The age of a religion doesn't make it immune to human influence, it fact it makes it more likely. Hinduism is no longer one single religion but now has numerous denominations and off shoots which to my way of thinking kinds of prove that human influence, whether for honorable or not so honorable reasons, has altered the understanding of Hinduism as it has with all religions that I'm familiar with.
What I find so amazing though is that these religions have all managed to retain their spiritual messages even when they appear to be at odds with their social teachings.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Each "manifestation" has their Own truth not mine and not yours.

These are separate Artists with their own art work

And they are not combined at the hip by time periods.

But they all either prophesy their own return at a future date or One Who will appear within a thousand years. It's in black and white in their Books.

 

[loverofhumanity]

See, it's this kind of attitude that make people not believe you, that Baha'i's goal is to keep culture.

You took that out of context from a post ridiculing the stupid differences we fight wars over. Maybe I should be more specific.

Anti-Semitism or anti western sentiment are stupid differences based on mythical superiority claims.

I was NOT referring to culture and I think you know that but still wanted to misrepresent us anyway.

Bahá'í is about REVIVING not destroying cultures and as we grow to be larger you will find that we are in the thick of restoring native and ancient cuktures which modern man has been destroying.

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

I was NOT referring to culture and I think you know that but still wanted to misrepresent us anyway.

I actually did not take it out of context. Yes, we know you Baha'is reference "world war 3" quite often, so much so that it's becoming a filler term. So when you say "we don't see eye-to-eye over stupid differences", I do take that to mean cultural differences.

With this statement here, I actually do not know that you're not referring to culture, because that's eventually what it all comes back to. Over these last several pages I've actually been trying to understand Baha'i properly - something that you've gone out of the way to applaud. What's more, it's excessively ironic that you would accuse me of wanting to misrepresent your faith, when 40+ pages give evidence that is just what Baha'i does to others.

 

[Esoqq]

The thing that I see is that some of these people, called "manifestation" by Baha'is, were ordinary people... Buddha, Moses, and some others. Some were thought to be "God in the flesh" like Krishna and Jesus. Regardless, they all "painted" a picture that reflected that culture. So that's the stickler for me... Were these "Great Beings" telling what the One True God said? Or, were they connecting to a deeper spiritual self and they had a "revelation" that was based on their traditions and prior beliefs? I'm especially thinking of Buddha with this, since he had nothing to do with the Abrahamic concept of GodQUOTE]

Each "manifestation" has their Own truth not mine and not yours.

These are separate Artists with their own art work

And they are not combined at the hip by time periods.

Each "manifestation" has their Own truth not mine and not yours.

These are separate Artists with their own art work

And they are not combined at the hip by time periods.

Here is where I differ with Baha'i teachings. I believe that all the messengers i.e. Moses, Jesus, Buddha, etc were normal humans who were either contacted by the Manifestation or possessed by it . Jesus indicated this to his disciples and I believe there is only one Manifestation, but it is not God but rather an unknowable force or entity that is spiritually much more evolved that we are.

We are speaking about real life here not mythological characters only existing in comic books.

Actually, according to archeology, Odin did exist, but he wasn't a god but rather a early Norse Chief who's real name was Woden