How are these Great Beings explained?

[loverofhumanity]

Again then, how many petals does the ajna chakra have? For that matter, what is a chakra?

I don't understand the terminology or what it refers to. We also have terminologies which you might be unfamiliar with.

That's a part of our diversity and if it's something common to us as humans then it can be something in common also.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Not very much. It impressed a few prominent black leaders from what I can gather, but no real observable change came until the Civil Rights movements of the '60's, and I find nothing to indicate that Baha'i influenced Martin Luther King. Plenty of claims, but no evidence. In fact, it seems to be quite the other way around, with Baha'is being influenced by MLK.

The Baha'i Faith is a young religion that has come a long way in a relatively short space of time. It has been just over 120 years since the Baha'i Faith was introduced to your country and 100 years for mine. The focus has been on establishing communities that reflect the Baha'i way of life and spreading the message throughout the globe. The best way to make positive change is to be an example of what you are striving to achieve. Of course the Baha'is direct efforts to make social change are modest on account of our relatively small numbers. However Baha'is are increasingly involved in the communities they serve, and they are part of important social discourses at every level of the community. Our elected assemblies are a model of another approach to democracy just as our communities reflect gender and racial equality. We are not trying to change the government from within, but instead provide a model of a better approach.

Yet even still, racial equality has a long way to go here, and is constantly in flux.

We are in agreement here. Neither of our countries can afford to become complacent about racial equality.

Promotion is not leading. I can promote Heathenry until the day I die, but until I am setting social codes, ethics, or speaking in authority I am not a leader. I can be a treasurer, a scribe, or the admin of a social media group. That doesn't make me a leader.

The most important part of leadership is being an outstanding example of what exemplifies your faith. If you can also communicate well, then you are a leader.

Like having a ruling body of authoritative figures?

The ruling body itself is authoritative. Its members have no authority other than when they are actually attending a meeting.

So then are you able to influence and change the Baha'i chapter in New Zealand? Could you, for instance, have your sect follow a different set of influential people, or none at all? Or deviate from the writings of the Babs entirely?

It is Baha'u'llah's writings we turn to, as the Bab's revelation was to prepare His followers to recognise Him. The answer is of course not, we're Baha'is. However there is broad scope for action within the framework of Baha'u'llah's writings.

Which indicates the "power of god," not any notions on the afterlife. Still applicable; people believed in and knew of many notions of afterlives before the resurrection myth of Jesus.

The resurrection is about both the Power of God and the afterlife. 1 Corinthians 15 makes this clear.

Since the Middle Ages? Yes. It's hard to say before that, because those men wrote their history and destroyed much of everything else. I, however, feel that what indications survived - the aforementioned queens and heroes - indicates that history was not always ruled by men.

No one here is denying history.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I said one common foundation or one in spirit or one in essence. I did make clear we accept that they have diverse forms of worship and outward practices. The clothes are different but the soul is the same.

Let me give you another example. I say I am pagan for lack of better words. I wear a pentacle ring. I go out and pray to the sun. I say my prayers for healing by water. I ask protection and wisdom from my family in spirit. I express my being in my art.

These are expressions

My spirit is not a mystery. It is not mystical. It is not supernatural. It is not even separate from my expression. If anything my spirit or truth
is my expression.

My truth is my expression.

If you have the same truth as me, you would have the same expressions as me.

The pentacle I wear that you do not is not for fashion. My mother has one she was given and she says she will die with it on. Whether she understands what it means, she probably doesn't since it's a "new thing" but she considers herself a witch regardless. The ring I wear (since she didn't want to part with it at her passing) is a replica of her connection with her ring and who gave it to her. Whether the technicalities where understood by history or she just like the ring, I feel objects have spirits in them. (I'm an animist). So she felt connection. I do as well. We are one.

This IS my truth and it IS my expression.

1. Are you my mother? Do you have a connection with me as I with you?
2. Do you wear a pentacle ring? If you do, what does it mean to you? If you don't and you share the same truth as I do, why do you not wear it?​

My truth does not involve god. If it did, I would be a polytheist. Since I am not a theist, I just see life in a poly-identified way since life is not a whole nor a sum of it's parts. There is no creator. No being. Spirits are people who have passed on. The creator was never a person; so, how can he be a spirit.

3. This is my truth. Do you believe this? If we share the same truth, you must believe this as well, right?​

When I pray outside to the sun or moon, I am either praying for life in gratitude-the former or for my birth and being here-the moon. It makes sense. The former is energy and the latter controls the water and from the water we are healed and we are born. (And so forth)

This is not just a belief, this is a fact. This is my truth. Do you believe this?​

In other words, if we all share one truth, why are you a separate person than me? Why is your expression different than mine? Why are you not all religions at one time?

If expressions or what you call man-made dogma/doctrine aren't part of spirituality, then

What does it mean to be Bahai when you share one truth with the rest of the world?

 

[Dawnofhope]

Perhaps. Certainly Boss doesn't or wouldn't frequent forums.

Who is Boss?

 

[Dawnofhope]

The entire idea of Brahma, Vishnu, and Shiva is really rare in Hindu scripture. It came into encyclopedias because the writers of encyclopedias came from the western paradigm. They were looking for parallels, much like you do. They were specifically looking for something resembling the Trinity in Christianity, and stumbles upon the Trimurthi in some vague place in Hinduism. The only thing in common is the first syllable 'tri' meaning 3. Other than that, there is no parallel. I would advise against reading encyclopedias about Hinduism because they get it all wrong. They didn't consult Hindus at all, and just make stuff up that suits their preconceived notions.

To answer your question, they are all names of God, although Brahma isn't worshiped these days. Shiva and Vishnu are both names of God, and are God to Hindus. Those that call God Vishnu are called Vaishnavite, and those that call God Shiva are Shaivite.

Non Hindus see them as representing Creation, Preservation, and Destruction. We Hindus see it as extension, sustaining, and dissolution. So the translation is poor, again, to suit the ideas of the translator. In the reality of the Hindu world, each God would have all 3 of these powers, (because its actually the same God) or acts and more. In Saivism, for example, Nataraja's Drum is for creation, the ring of fire is dissolution, and is upright right hand is for sustaining. He has two more acts, or graces called revealing grace, and concealing grace.

Brahma and Brahman are two entirely different things.

Much better than any encyclopedia or wikipedia is this site: Hindupedia, the Hindu Encyclopedia It is at least written by Hindus.

This site included in a post sent to another appears to be an excellent starting point for my research into Hinduism.

Thank you.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Let me give you another example. I say I am pagan for lack of better words. I wear a pentacle ring. I go out and pray to the sun. I say my prayers for healing by water. I ask protection and wisdom from my family in spirit. I express my being in my art.

These are expressions

My spirit is not a mystery. It is not mystical. It is not supernatural. It is not even separate from my expression. If anything my spirit or truth
is my expression.

My truth is my expression.

If you have the same truth as me, you would have the same expressions as me.

The pentacle I wear that you do not is not for fashion. My mother has one she was given and she says she will die with it on. Whether she understands what it means, she probably doesn't since it's a "new thing" but she considers herself a witch regardless. The ring I wear (since she didn't want to part with it at her passing) is a replica of her connection with her ring and who gave it to her. Whether the technicalities where understood by history or she just like the ring, I feel objects have spirits in them. (I'm an animist). So she felt connection. I do as well. We are one.

This IS my truth and it IS my expression.

1. Are you my mother? Do you have a connection with me as I with you?
2. Do you wear a pentacle ring? If you do, what does it mean to you? If you don't and you share the same truth as I do, why do you not wear it?​

My truth does not involve god. If it did, I would be a polytheist. Since I am not a theist, I just see life in a poly-identified way since life is not a whole nor a sum of it's parts. There is no creator. No being. Spirits are people who have passed on. The creator was never a person; so, how can he be a spirit.

3. This is my truth. Do you believe this? If we share the same truth, you must believe this as well, right?​

When I pray outside to the sun or moon, I am either praying for life in gratitude-the former or for my birth and being here-the moon. It makes sense. The former is energy and the latter controls the water and from the water we are healed and we are born. (And so forth)

This is not just a belief, this is a fact. This is my truth. Do you believe this?​

In other words, if we all share one truth, why are you a separate person than me? Why is your expression different than mine? Why are you not all religions at one time?

If expressions or what you call man-made dogma/doctrine aren't part of spirituality, then

What does it mean to be Bahai when you share one truth with the rest of the world?

All your questions seem to revolve around how can we different yet be one in truth.

You clearly have different beliefs to others and that's diversity. But we have things in common also.

To have unity we must agree to accept that everyone is different. So you and I can have different beliefs and be on good terms (hopefully)

But when you start making accusations of cultural sppropriation I must say that is false because all the religions belong to humanity. Buddhists do not own Buddhism, it belongs to one all all. If people choose to believe in Buddha as well as Chrust and Muhammad then that is their freedom of choice and it is oppression to accuse them of stealing when they are just believing what us true.

So we believe in all the Great Teachers. So what? That's our right. You choose not to accept Bahaullah - that's your right. You're free to reject or accept anything you want.

You believe the Manifestations are contradictory - find. We believe they are complimentary - that's fine also.no one has any right to say to us we can't believe this or that or we are stealing.

Where did the Hindus get their knowledge from? History goes back longer than we have records for. If we did have records of history millions of years ago I bet we'd find that every religion has 'culturally appropriated" from the religion before it.

Christianity culturally appropriates the Old Tesrament which according to you would belong to the Jews yet Jesus said that Moses spoke of Him and 'if Ye had believed Moses you would have believed me' insinuating that Jesus was 'connected' to Moses yet Jews all deny it and call Christ an imposter.

Muhammad also adds belief in the Bible to the Quran. And Baha'is add them all saying the same thing that 'each us connected to the other'.

So if you want to accuse the Bahais of stealing then you have to accuse all the religions because they all followed what was handed down to them by 'others' who, according to you had no connection whatsoever.

Buddha speaks about beliefs of the Hindus. What is it of His concern?

Gautama was born and brought up and lived and died a Hindu...There was not much in the metaphysics and principles of Gautama which cannot be found in one or other of the orthodox systems, and a great deal of his morality could be matched from earlier or later Hindu books." (Rhys Davids)

"Buddhism, in its origin at least is an offshoot of Hinduism." (S.Rahdhakrishnan)

In many people's minds Buddhism too grew out of or was an offshoot of Hinduism.

You can't divorce history into independent groups that are not interconnected which is what you are trying to do. In history there is an overlapping of people's, cultures, races, nations and religions.

You can't divide th sun up into parts and say we can have nothing to do with your part or include your sun in our country which is what you are saying.

Yes we have different understandings and beliefs but we are all interconnected and we have common beliefs and a common humanity within that diversity.

So we accept that there are many different beliefs and diversity of culture and tradition and language but added to that are things we have in common because we are interconnected and the same species.

Most religions are an offshoot of the previous religion either culturally or spiritually. That's just our view but we respect you if you reject it. That's your full right to onkynaccept what you believe .

 

[loverofhumanity]

As Frankenstein has touched on, "the West" does not need any more spirituality than it has already. From the now present Middle Eastern beliefs to the native faiths that are rising again, we have just as much spirituality as is needed.

The "cult of no identity" that I'm talking about is the notion that you hinted at that "we're all human", as though that's supposed to supersede all culture, rather than underline it. "See them as a human first, before male, black, Kemetic, etc". It's preposterous, and insulting to cultural identity. We may all be humans, but that far from unites us. Even wolves fight amongst themselves.

Culture is something we want to keep. Just everyone being the same and thinking the same would make life very dull but we also want to not have another world war just because we don't see eye to eye over some stupid differences.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

All your questions seem to revolve around how can we different yet be one in truth.

I will to back and read but Im in transit.

I am saying how is there one truth when

1. Our truths Are our expressions

2. They cannot be separated

3. Everyone has different expressions thus they have dofferent truths.

There is no "yet be one truth."

There is no one truth.

Understand?

 

[loverofhumanity]

I will to back and read but Im in transit.

I am saying how is there one truth when

1. Our truths Are our expressions

2. They cannot be separated

3. Everyone has different expressions thus they have dofferent truths.

There is no "yet be one truth."

There is no one truth.

Understand?

Our truths cannot be separated is correct. That is why we believe in all the Manifestations because of their interconnectedness and that they cannot be separated.

The different Manifestations are but different expressions of truth just like your paintings are expressions of yourself.

 

[Vinayaka]

I said one common foundation or one in spirit or one in essence. I did make clear we accept that they have diverse forms of worship and outward practices. The clothes are different but the soul is the same.

This site included in a post sent to another appears to be an excellent starting point for my research into Hinduism.

Thank you.

Some sites are clearer than others, yes. You will know more about us than what is currently presented in the Bahai literature, for sure. Not sure exactly how it will help you though, other than just having knowledge. We're still faced with the conundrum of not agreeing about agreeing.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

You have to read all my posts so you wont fesl I am attacking you. I said many times christianity culturally appropriates (taking things ans teachings from one culture into their own) but they killed. Your religion Does Not kill and the same concept is present.

In the beginning, I was telling you there are more than one truth and each truth is embedded in their Traditions, language, and culture (TLC).

To take interest in what I say or diversity is to learn and understand how ones TLC our included shape spirituality yours included.

Without that interest, you can post bahai scriptures all day but like any conversation there should be mutual respct and interest learning views even if you feel TLC is not important ans I know it is crucial to spiritualitys survival.

You clearly have different beliefs to others and that's diversity. But we have things in common also.

I have a different truth than you. We do not share the same truths.

If you do, answer the questions Ive given you. I tried to make it as easy as possible. You didnt even answer "if my truth is the same as yours what is my truth." Yes, you talked with @Vinayaka but that does not excuse you dodging the question.

To have unity we must agree to accept that everyone is different. So you and I can have different beliefs and be on good terms (hopefully)

We have different truths. Beliefs make up truths. TLC defines it.

But when you start making accusations of cultural sppropriation I must say that is false because all the religions belong to humanity.

It is. You are taking these founders teachings "and incorporating them as if they are connected to bahaullah". You are appropriating someone elses cultural belief into your own by connection of your founder bahaullah.

Whether you take that as an accusation or fact thats on you. But I cant think of another term.

If you read my post that takes about you saying you hindu in one post and not in another, at the bottom addresses this concept of one truth and many expressions.

It is your belief....

The Fact is the expressions Are the truth and many expressions is many truths. Its one thing to say "I believe X and you believe Y" its another to say "I believe X and your Y is a part of my X even though we are different letters."

So if you want to accuse the Bahais of stealing then you have to accuse all the religions because they all followed what was handed down to them by 'others' who, according to you had no connection whatsoever.

Appropriation is taking another persons culture and putting it into another. It is appropriating teachings and traditions held sacred by the people who share, experience, and worship those teachings as a unit not as one humanity.

Stealing is taking something that does not belong to you. Since you do not share the same experiences, culture, and traditions of a Hindu but have krishna and interpretation of krishna in your teachings,

Yes that is appropriating teachings and

Yes, because you are not Hindu, I would personally consider it stealing. Christians do it. Muslims do it.

Again you are not bloody in your dilevery. Take the compliment.

If you are not reading my posts you will be offended. I MUST read all posts. I cannot post a reply without reading it in sections.

 

[Vinayaka]

I said one common foundation or one in spirit or one in essence. I did make clear we accept that they have diverse forms of worship and outward practices. The clothes are different but the soul is the same.

And you know this how?

 

[Vinayaka]

No we don't. It is for all. Anyone can incorporate Bahá'í teachings, books or beliefs into their system if they like. We'd be honoured.

Not for me, sorry. I'm a Hindu. I think differently than you do.

 

[Vinayaka]

I don't understand the terminology or what it refers to. We also have terminologies which you might be unfamiliar with.

That's a part of our diversity and if it's something common to us as humans then it can be something in common also.

Yes, and that is my point. We're different, and it goes to the core.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Our truths cannot be separated is correct. That is why we believe in all the Manifestations because of their interconnectedness and that they cannot be separated.

The different Manifestations are but different expressions of truth just like your paintings are expressions of yourself.

Youre saying Vango, Michelangelo, Picasso, and myself share the same art even though the art itself differs by time period, art is the same.

I am saying BECAUSE the art differs by time period and person, there is no link between me and Picasso other than we are both artists.

Being one humanity (being artists) doesnt make everyone connected in one truth. There is no separate time periods of old and new. Thats insulting many religions right there on the spot.

I have a high nerve on this not because of Bahais but figuring out how you can make many truths into one.

Love, one humanity, etc are things anyone can share. You are bahai. Just being bahai makes you have a different truth than I do.

If not why arent we believing the same thing regardless if you divorce our expressions?

 

[Vinayaka]

Nope, no culture is perfect. Dharmic religions aren't perfect or superior, either. Maybe they could use some help from Abrahamic religions to correct their shortcomings.

Bahai is Abrahamic. or did you misunderstand that?

 

[Vinayaka]

This cult of No Identity that is sweeping the modern world is an affront to the diversity that it claims to preserve, and does nothing good for the world by homogenizing everything.

Absolutely. Look at the many cultures that have been destroyed through warfare, assimilation, and more. We're losing many wonderful traditions, not to mention practical stuff like herbology. It's a tragic loss.

Look what happened to potatoes and bananas, by going to one variety. What a pity.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

@loverofhumanity

Let's take Bahai and Baullauah out of this.

1. Do you understand that spirituality (that "one truth" you speak of) is shaped by individual religion's tradition, language, and culture (TLC)?

2. Do you understand to other religions that their TLC is their spirituality?

3. Do you understand that to be Hindu, Christian, or any other cultural oriented religion, you must have their TLC?



I asked you "if your truth is the same as mine, what is my truth?"

Since my truth isn't a mystical experience, I will ask one more time, what is my truth?​

It's alright to say I am wrong about my truth, I'm lying, or so have you but the point is for you to admit that what you believe of me and my faith (if I were Christian, Muslim, Hindu, or whomever) has no barrings on what I know of my own faith.

If you want to stick with beliefs, that is your call. If your beliefs are based on facts, they must be supported by the body of these religious you are putting together under one roof.

So, just talking about one-truth of humanity, what is the difference between my truth and yours?​

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

Culture is something we want to keep. Just everyone being the same and thinking the same would make life very dull but we also want to not have another world war just because we don't see eye to eye over some stupid differences.

See, it's this kind of attitude that make people not believe you, that Baha'i's goal is to keep culture.

 

[Esoqq]

Yes I've read that. I particularly like how Bahai's main goal is not to supplant Hinduism, but to take Hinduism further. What a condescending approach that is! Bahai is the saviour to the rescue. lol

That one, and to unite Hinduism. Like we need outside intervention from a relatively small faith group. Us 900 million Hindus will be united by 10 million people who don't understand us at all. Funny.

I've researched the Major Religions, including Hinduism, and one thing I've found among them all is that over time they shift their focus from the spiritual truth that was their source and refocus their attention on the social laws. This, along with political corruption, alters the message of the religion into one of intolerance and conflict.
The exceptions to politics turning religions into sources of violence, for the most part, are the eastern religions. Somehow the effects of politics have a considerably less effect on Hinduism, Buddhism, Jainism, and Taoism than on the Revealed religions.
The passage of time however does have an effect on the Eastern religions as well since the human mind is constantly evolving and new understandings are uncovered making social laws less reasonable and questionable and soon people are obeying because the clergy insist you must and not because they are still relevant. This, in my opinion, is why the Manifestation pops up from time to time. While the Spiritual teachings remain the same their importance need to be reiterated.
Most people, in their hearts, instinctively understand the true teachings of their religion, which is Love of God and Love of One Another.