How are these Great Beings explained?

[The Kilted Heathen]

Actually, according to archeology, Odin did exist, but he wasn't a god but rather a early Norse Chief who's real name was Woden

Not according to archeology, but according to Snorri Sturlsson in his Prose Eddas. Woden is also the Germanic god typically paired to Odin - akin to Zeus and Jupiter.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Some sites are clearer than others, yes. You will know more about us than what is currently presented in the Bahai literature, for sure. Not sure exactly how it will help you though, other than just having knowledge. We're still faced with the conundrum of not agreeing about agreeing.

Then we agree to disagree.

One aspect of this thread and RF for me, is to highlight how little I know about some other religions, Hinduism included. That is natural as the numbers of Hindus where I live are really low, and I wouldn't talk religion with them. In New Zealand people generally avoid talking about religion as it can be so divisive.

I've never really thought too much about the Krishna connection in the Baha'i Faith because it makes sense to me. It makes sense because I have an Abrahamic way of thinking. Now I discover this is alien to how most Hindus think about religion. That intrigues me and so naturally I wish to make sense of it.

Having a site put together by Hindus will be much more helpful than Wikipedia.

The first question is who Is Krishna? Was He a real person or a deity who never existed? Perhaps like Christianity there are mythological embellishments about His life. What is the evidence for these conclusions based on the sacred texts themselves and according to accepted historical facts. If He existed, then what did He teach?

There are many more questions about where He fits into Hindu belief. I'm not asking you to answer any of my questions and you have provide a good starting point. I'm quite excited to do some research. Thanks again for the link.

 

[loverofhumanity]

You have to read all my posts so you wont fesl I am attacking you. I said many times christianity culturally appropriates (taking things ans teachings from one culture into their own) but they killed. Your religion Does Not kill and the same concept is present.

In the beginning, I was telling you there are more than one truth and each truth is embedded in their Traditions, language, and culture (TLC).

To take interest in what I say or diversity is to learn and understand how ones TLC our included shape spirituality yours included.

Without that interest, you can post bahai scriptures all day but like any conversation there should be mutual respct and interest learning views even if you feel TLC is not important ans I know it is crucial to spiritualitys survival.


I have a different truth than you. We do not share the same truths.

If you do, answer the questions Ive given you. I tried to make it as easy as possible. You didnt even answer "if my truth is the same as yours what is my truth." Yes, you talked with @Vinayaka but that does not excuse you dodging the question.



We have different truths. Beliefs make up truths. TLC defines it.




It is. You are taking these founders teachings "and incorporating them as if they are connected to bahaullah". You are appropriating someone elses cultural belief into your own by connection of your founder bahaullah.

Whether you take that as an accusation or fact thats on you. But I cant think of another term.

If you read my post that takes about you saying you hindu in one post and not in another, at the bottom addresses this concept of one truth and many expressions.

It is your belief....

The Fact is the expressions Are the truth and many expressions is many truths. Its one thing to say "I believe X and you believe Y" its another to say "I believe X and your Y is a part of my X even though we are different letters."



Appropriation is taking another persons culture and putting it into another. It is appropriating teachings and traditions held sacred by the people who share, experience, and worship those teachings as a unit not as one humanity.

Stealing is taking something that does not belong to you. Since you do not share the same experiences, culture, and traditions of a Hindu but have krishna and interpretation of krishna in your teachings,

Yes that is appropriating teachings and

Yes, because you are not Hindu, I would personally consider it stealing. Christians do it. Muslims do it.

Again you are not bloody in your dilevery. Take the compliment.

If you are not reading my posts you will be offended. I MUST read all posts. I cannot post a reply without reading it in sections.

Carlita, Of course I read your entire posts. I don't answer them maybe the way you want. The issue here is not whether I read your posts or not. I replied to almost every sentence in most of them unless I deemed a short response sufficient but I always respect your posts and don't ignore them.

If Baha'u'llah were not Promised in the Holy Books of most Faiths maybe then you could say we were stealing other Faith's ideas and incorporating themselves into our own but that's not the case here we believe.

A Christian who believes in the Gospels is obligated to accept Christ when He returns as are the religionists of other Faiths bound by their own Holy Book to obey everything they state including the prophecies.

Prophecies are included in the Holy Books for a reason.

And the time will come when they will all be fulfilled. So we cannot just gloss over them as if they're not there at all. Maybe they mean nothing to you personally, but they vindicate Baha'u'llah.

As I said before, a close look at the direction of the world and the teachings the world is adopting will find that they are in tune with a lot of Baha'u'llah's teachings.

Regardless of whether we have one Baha'i or a million, the Bahá'í Revelation is the most influential religion in the world today because Baha'u'llah's teachings are being adopted worldwide everywhere.

The trend towards Word organisation, towards equality between men and women, towards a global society, towards anti racism and anti bigotry and human rights and many many more are the teachings of this Revelation.

What Baha'u'llah has in common with the Prophets of the past is He was sent by the same God. That truth all comes from the same Source just like our light all comes from the one sun.a

The different Teachers in a school teach different topics to students in different classes but they all teach for the same school.

Now here's the crunch. Think about this one, You get a university degree and I tell you that it has to do with your kindergarten and is linked with kinfdergarden and you scoff at me but yet if you didn't learn your abc could you have gotten your degree or even attended university?

Each Teacher builds progressively on what previous Teachers have taught. They are not unrelated. They are related like Uni is to kindergarten.

Now does the person with the degree still accept his/her kindergarten teacher? Of course. He acknowledges and accepts all his/her Teachers that helped get him/her a degree.

You are saying uni is unrelated to kindergarten and to acknowledge our previous teachers is stealing. Stealing what? They gave us our abc, our primary and high school education so we acknowledge them all like the Baha'i Faith acknowledges all previous Teachers and we needed all of them. It was just as important for us to learn our spiritual abc as it is now to get a degree in world unity.

They are all part of our education in the school of humanity and we cannot divorce our education from any one of them.

So saying they represent one school is not wrong.

At the end of the day it's our belief which is just the way we understand it but to you it's wrong and stealing so then that's fine for you to feel that way because you are not a Baha'i.

But I still think many of your beliefs are true and right and I'm not interested in telling you I'm right and you're wrong because I believe much of what you say is good and true. And I'm ignorant on many a matter.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Not according to archeology, but according to Snorri Sturlsson in his Prose Eddas. Woden is also the Germanic god typically paired to Odin - akin to Zeus and Jupiter.

One thing I forgot to mention.

Baha'u'llah did say that beyond known recorded history there were always great teachers and Manifestations which doesn't exclude the possibility of many of these so called 'myths' actually having been part of previous Manifestations Dispensations.

"We are taught there always have been Manifestations of God, but we do not have any record of their names." - Shoghi Effendi

 

[loverofhumanity]

Here is where I differ with Baha'i teachings. I believe that all the messengers i.e. Moses, Jesus, Buddha, etc were normal humans who were either contacted by the Manifestation or possessed by it . Jesus indicated this to his disciples and I believe there is only one Manifestation, but it is not God but rather an unknowable force or entity that is spiritually much more evolved that we are.


Actually, according to archeology, Odin did exist, but he wasn't a god but rather a early Norse Chief who's real name was Woden

Odin may well have been a part of another Divine Revelation of the distant unrecorded past. This stupid statement of mine just exposes my complete ignorance so I'm glad you quoted it to remind me of it. Sometimes regret is the best teacher.

 

[loverofhumanity]

I actually did not take it out of context. Yes, we know you Baha'is reference "world war 3" quite often, so much so that it's becoming a filler term. So when you say "we don't see eye-to-eye over stupid differences", I do take that to mean cultural differences.

With this statement here, I actually do not know that you're not referring to culture, because that's eventually what it all comes back to. Over these last several pages I've actually been trying to understand Baha'i properly - something that you've gone out of the way to applaud. What's more, it's excessively ironic that you would accuse me of wanting to misrepresent your faith, when 40+ pages give evidence that is just what Baha'i does to others.

Fair enough. But I never ever mean cultural as we are taught that culture is part of our diversity and a Baha'i could be seriously reprimanded for deliberately condescending another culture.

Once I thought a bit more deeply about Odin I realised the stupidity of my statement as many ancient myths could very well be based in real truth. But that comes from hindsight. With wisdom I would never have said some thing. Live and learn.

You're more than fair. I acknowledge that.

 

[Vinayaka]

What I find so amazing though is that these religions have all managed to retain their spiritual messages even when they appear to be at odds with their social teachings.

How do you mean 'at odds with their social teachings' I don't know what that means. In Hinduism the two are intricately intertwined. For example, ahimsa is the spiritual teaching that corresponds to vegetarianism. Actions are heavily influenced by inner understandings.

 

[loverofhumanity]

@loverofhumanity

Let's take Bahai and Baullauah out of this.

1. Do you understand that spirituality (that "one truth" you speak of) is shaped by individual religion's tradition, language, and culture (TLC)?

2. Do you understand to other religions that their TLC is their spirituality?

3. Do you understand that to be Hindu, Christian, or any other cultural oriented religion, you must have their TLC?



I asked you "if your truth is the same as mine, what is my truth?"

Since my truth isn't a mystical experience, I will ask one more time, what is my truth?​

It's alright to say I am wrong about my truth, I'm lying, or so have you but the point is for you to admit that what you believe of me and my faith (if I were Christian, Muslim, Hindu, or whomever) has no barrings on what I know of my own faith.

If you want to stick with beliefs, that is your call. If your beliefs are based on facts, they must be supported by the body of these religious you are putting together under one roof.

So, just talking about one-truth of humanity, what is the difference between my truth and yours?​

You say you are pagan right?

The difference between my belief and yours is you don't acknowledge there's a God right? But you still acknowledge things like love, patience, the virtues, the spiritual sentiments? Then spiritually we have some spiritual truths in common right?

No you're not wrong or lying. You belief in truth your way and I believe it a different way and I respect that. I never said I'm a Hindu, another Hindu site said that. I said I have things in common with all Faiths not that I am a member of any one of them, as I am a Baha'i.

I understand spirituality is supposed to be based on the teachings of the Manifestation for the day but that over time traditions replace the original reasonings and become the Faith which is why we need Manifestations to keep appearing to renew religion from time to time.

 

[Vinayaka]

The first question is who Is Krishna? Was He a real person or a deity who never existed? Perhaps like Christianity there are mythological embellishments about His life. What is the evidence for these conclusions based on the sacred texts themselves and according to accepted historical facts. If He existed, then what did He teach?

There are many more questions about where He fits into Hindu belief. I'm not asking you to answer any of my questions and you have provide a good starting point. I'm quite excited to do some research. Thanks again for the link.

I'm not a Vaishnavite, so Krishna isn't part of my sect. Definitely he is the central character in an epic called the Mahabharata, but in terms of my day to day Hinduism, he's not part of my worship. So I know very little about that. Edited there are a couple, maybe 3 temples in New Zealand of my sect though.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Yes, there is a direct connection between those religions. Those religions have similarities. Now why didn't Moses refer to Buddha or Krishna?

Geography probably. There are only two references in the bible referring to India.

INDIA IN THE BIBLE

It just wasn't an important part of the world view for either the Hebrew peoples or early Christians.

"It is believed that Christianity came to India in the first century.

Jesus named twelve men to be apostles and commissioned them to take the gospel to the world (Matthew 28:19-20). One of those was Bartholomew, and another was Thomas who was called “the twin” (John 20:24).

In the early third century, Hippolytus wrote about Bartholomew and Thomas:

Bartholomew, again, preached to the Indians, to whom he also gave the Gospel according to Matthew, and was crucified with his head downward, and was buried in Allanum, a town of the great Armenia…

And Thomas preached to the Parthians, Medes, Persians, Hyrcanians, Bactrians, and Margians, and was thrust through in the four members of his body with a pine spears at Calamene, the city of India, and was buried there (Hippolytus. On The Twelve Apostles).

This may be the earliest reference to any form of Christianity coming to India. Thus, apparently at least two of the original apostles made it to India."

What Does the Bible Say About India?

No, what does the God talking to Moses say? He calls himself the God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob. The God of Israel and other things. Does he ever say I am the God of the Egyptian religion, or the Philistines, or the Babylonians? No, he's the enemy of those religions and calls them false because they worship idols.

That is true. There was enormous emphasis in the OT on establishing strict monotheism and avoiding at all costs idol worship, or worshiping other Gods.

But does Christianity really say about the message Moses brought? It doesn't say it is equal. It says if a person doesn't accept Jesus they are lost and will be cast into hellfire.

One of the biblical verses most quoted in regards to the exclusivity of Christianity is John 14:6. Lets consider the context:

Jesus was speaking to His disciples who of course are all, like Jesus are all Jews. He has just informed them of His impending martyrdom. They are distraught and He is comforting them. When He says "I am the way, the truth, the light, nobody goes to the Father except through me" He is reiterating that He is the Promised One that the Jews have been waiting for and they need to turn to Him, not to another.

The world of the Jews did not even remotely approach the type of global vision that we have now. The Jews world vision was confined to surrounding regions throughout the Middle East and what was in the Tanakh. Most Jews were illiterate and relied on religious teachers for instruction.

There are scripture that indicate despite the Jews rejection of their Messiah, the issue of whether or not they are saved is not the main concern (Romans Chapter 9 and 11 and Mark 3:28-30). Were there consequences for the Jews in rejecting Christ? Of course and that is history. The Jews were required to recognise and follow their Messiah. That was part of the deal. Of course Christianity was superior to Judaism because one faith rejected their Messiah and the other accepted Him.

So we do have the next religion saying it is superior than the previous. And we have religions saying their God is the true one and all the other religions have false gods. How do you explain that?

By superior we mean the religion that is most relevant today. It does not mean One Manifestation of God is superior to another. The Baha'i Faith has the Teachings that are relevant to this era, the other Abrahamic faiths do not.

 

[Dawnofhope]

My wife of 42 years. (Well not quite, soon though.) It's an affectionate term.

Ah yes, the Boss. My wife (Boss) would have no interest in a site like this. Facebook yes, RF definitely not.

 

[Vinayaka]

Thanks again for the link.

Sorry then for recommending anything. I shall cease and desist. Go ahead, just use the Bahai sources.

 

[CG Didymus]

Such sacrifice existed before monotheism and the god of Abraham, though.

I'm talking about the Hebrews were told to sacrifice animals for various reasons. But I guess, if you want to get technical, the Christians believe God sacrificed his only son... and that God had to do it in order to save people from their sins.

 

[CG Didymus]

But they all either prophesy their own return at a future date or One Who will appear within a thousand years. It's in black and white in their Books.

How many years between the different manifestations that we know about? And might as well give me what Baha'is believe to be the approximate time that each manifestation lived. And let's see how black and white things are looking from that.

 

[CG Didymus]

...Bahá'í is about REVIVING not destroying cultures and as we grow to be larger you will find that we are in the thick of restoring native and ancient cuktures which modern man has been destroying.

What do you do with the religions that were an intrinsic part of their different cultures? Like I've said before, some of them threw people in volcanoes or cut out their hearts to appease their gods.

 

[CG Didymus]

Here is where I differ with Baha'i teachings. I believe that all the messengers i.e. Moses, Jesus, Buddha, etc were normal humans who were either contacted by the Manifestation or possessed by it . Jesus indicated this to his disciples and I believe there is only one Manifestation, but it is not God but rather an unknowable force or entity that is spiritually much more evolved that we are.


Actually, according to archeology, Odin did exist, but he wasn't a god but rather a early Norse Chief who's real name was Woden

I have believed different things at different times about the invisible spiritual world. Depending on what I believed at the time I received a type of "answer" that what I believed was the truth. So, for me, it depended greatly on what I perceived to be true as to what my mind "received", as a vision or inspiration, from the spiritual world.

That's why I believe everybody, in any religion or spiritual path, gets confirmation of their beliefs from a source seemly from the spiritual world. A Baha'i sees visions of Abdu'l Baha. A Catholic sees Mary. A Protestant? The devil chasing them maybe? I don't know? But don't laugh, I've heard some say they know the devil is real, because they met him. Scary. Fortunately, they have Jesus and the Holy Spirit to protect them.

But what did the guy who became known as Baha'u'llah see? He clearly saw a higher vision, but his vision seems very related to Islam. Some Bahai'is have denied this, but the language, the prayers, the fast, the laws... it's all so liberal Islamic to me. And what about the special calendar? 19 day months? What is the work week going to look like? And what about my car payment? Every two and a half weeks and I gotta another payment due? The Book of Revelation said nothing about that.

Anyway, I'm so glad to have you here. Hope you enjoy posting.

 

[loverofhumanity]

What do you do with the religions that were an intrinsic part of their different cultures? Like I've said before, some of them threw people in volcanoes or cut out their hearts to appease their gods.

In ages past these practices may have been part of some cultures but today it is not so when we come across such groups the idea would be to try and educate them but groups like Isis require a firm hand not tolerance.

 

[loverofhumanity]

How many years between the different manifestations that we know about? And might as well give me what Baha'is believe to be the approximate time that each manifestation lived. And let's see how black and white things are looking from that.

Actually one can refer to history without consulting Baha'is and be fairly accurate.

This article goes into these topics and how long is a 'cycle' and such things.

The Adamic Cycle was about 6,000 years according to this link.

Ages and Cycles

The current cycle, the Bahá'í Cycle, will last 500,000 before another Manifestation the calibre of Baha'u'llah appears. Just to hear the Name and even more so to be a follower in this age will be looked on with envy in future ages.

The next Manifestation which could well be a woman, we have no idea, will not be for at least 1,000 years according to Baha'u'llah.

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

500,000 years? That's quite an aspiration.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Sorry then for recommending anything. I shall cease and desist. Go ahead, just use the Bahai sources.

You are doing an excellent job of asking serious questions of the Baha'i world view in regards to Hinduism. You have great support from others on this thread who are not Hindu. When we first meet a couple of months ago I wanted to have a conversation with you about Hinduism. You declined to have such a conversation so no problem.

I started engaging with RF about 4 months ago. My thoughts at the time is that it stimulate interest in other faiths. Hinduism is high on the list. Your involvement in this thread has met that need so I really I am grateful.

Another epiphany is to realise the limitations of two people from different faiths who know little about the others faith debating religion. That debate needs to be more like a discussion or conversation, where there is a spirit of mutual courtesy and respect. There has to be a willingness from both parties to learn from each other and a genuine spirit of good will.

We have identified there are different paradigms between the Abrahamic and Dharmic Faiths. I believe Baha'is if they are true to the teachings of Baha'u'llah operate on a different paradigm again. An example is Baha'u'llah's exhortation to consort with peoples of all Faiths and backgrounds in a spirit of love and fellowship. We are not interested in remaining in the confines of our own culture and religion. We are fundamentally concerned with building positive relationships with people very different from ourselves, wholly for the sake of God.

On one hand I make no apology for being a Baha'i and on the other do not wish to offend anyone.

Best Wishes