How can a Jew reject Jesus as the Messiah?

[Poisonshady313]

No. I believe that Mohammed borrowed his ideas from the Bible, Zoroastrianism, and Arabian folklore.

For similar reasons, I do not regard "the new testament" as scripture.

It really is that simple. You continuing to attempt to get me to see Jesus in the Tanakh would be like me trying to convince you that the Quran is God's word and that Mohammed is God's final prophet.

 

[Skywalker]

Yes, but that is not what HE was telling the people to do. HE is the Word (John 1:1). So HE was revealing to them, that HIS Word needs to be eaten. HE said: Except ye eat the substance containing my Genetic information, drink in assimilate my Gene, ye have no everlasting life in your body. HE had just finished feeding them with loaves of bread and fish showing that HE is the GOD that fed their fathers in the wilderness, fulfilling psalms 23, and the people ate their fill. Then when the message came, when HE revealed HIS Gospel of Everlasting life, the people that just ate left as HE was preaching. HE said, my Word is what you must eat. Compare:

IF a man keep my saying he shall never see death John 8:51
Your fathers ate manna and are dead. I am the bread of life that cometh down from heaven. He that eats of this bread shall never die but live forever.
Why was John the Beloved rumoured to live forever?

The Apostles got the message wrong my brother. They were tested and proved when they were offered the same deal as Matt 4:4-7 but they took the deal instead. That is what the denials of Peter was pointing to; the denials ofthe church; not just peter; he represents the church. And its why Jesus His Pre-Eminence said 3 times: Lovest thou me, feed my sheep.

So HE wasn't telling the people to eat HIM, HE was telling them that HIS Word which is Living and active; Spiritual and life giving; Spiritual meaning containing spiritual genetic properties and contents; life giving meaning Zoe hatching. Zoe cells was called the must add seed (mustard) the incorruptible seed, that must fill the physical body to transfigure that body in life. This is why i have started showing things in Genesis because Man cannot know where he is going without knowing where he came from.

However, the Jews are right. The Christians are very wrong. HE is not the Son of GOD, Adam is the Son of GOD. And the Son of Man is Eliljah. Thats why they could not be fooled by the nonsense of the epistles. They have their scrolls and had Prophets sent to them.

Replacement theology is a myth. The church didn't replace Israel. God has only ever had one people, those who live by faith. When Christ fulfilled the old covenant and transitioned into the New, the nature of our relationship changed for both believing Jew and Gentile and so did the nature of God's kingdom from physical to spiritual. Nothing was replaced. There was no church in the old testament because that word hadn't been invented yet. KAHEILAT is the Hebrew equivalent. Both Kaheilat and church and eclesia just means Assembly. The bride of Christ is made up of all believers both alive and dead. From the old and new testament era. And are now in the body of Christ and those who are alive have Christ living in them through the Holy Spirit. Jesus kingdom is not a physical kingdom but is inside us. Judaism was our tutor, Christ is now our reality and so we no longer require the tutor. The old covenant was out guardian until Christ came. It isn't called Judaism in the Bible.

 

[Yahcubs777]

Replacement theology is a myth. The church didn't replace Israel. God has only ever had one people, those who live by faith. When Christ fulfilled the old covenant and transitioned into the New, the nature of our relationship changed for both believing Jew and Gentile and so did the nature of God's kingdom from physical to spiritual. Nothing was replaced. There was no church in the old testament because that word hadn't been invented yet. KAHEILAT is the Hebrew equivalent. Both Kaheilat and church and eclesia just means Assembly. The bride of Christ is made up of all believers both alive and dead. From the old and new testament era. And are now in the body of Christ and those who are alive have Christ living in them through the Holy Spirit. Jesus kingdom is not a physical kingdom but is inside us. Judaism was our tutor, Christ is now our reality and so we no longer require the tutor. The old covenant was out guardian until Christ came. It isn't called Judaism in the Bible.

The Church has been since Enoch. There are 7 Angels of the 7 Churches. They are:
Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Joshua, Apostle Peter, and the third Elijah.

Compare with Isaiah 4:1

Saul paul after stealing scrolls and attaining teachings like the ones that were from before Moses time, tried to steal what was in them, and started 7 churches that were couterfiet, He even claimed that he had an out of body experience in the third heaven. Do you know who had that? Father Adam when GOD took a rib from his body and he fell into a deep sleep.

The 7 Angels of the Churches was preached by Father Adam in the earth! And he trained the first Angel, Enoch who lived forever. That was Abraham was supposed to do to Isaac. IT was Father Adam that said: To die is gain, to live again is Christ.

 

[Skywalker]

The Church has been since Enoch. There are 7 Angels of the Churches. They are:
Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Joshua, Apostle Peter, and the third Elijah.

it is just the nature of man to forget and fall away from the truth. I do think the messianic expectation was there from the very beginning ever since the fall, because I think they realized, perhaps more than most people think, that they needed a redeemer in order to be restored to the fellowship and oneness with God that was experienced in Eden. So I don't think it's surprising that that concept was there, people just took it and it became changed into various forms as the cultures developed, and even though they may have held onto the idea, the addition of other gods or pagan practices corrupted it, so that's I think why the gospel was needed, to bring people back to a relationship with God.

 

[Yahcubs777]

it is just the nature of man to forget and fall away from the truth. I do think the messianic expectation was there from the very beginning ever since the fall, because I think they realized, perhaps more than most people think, that they needed a redeemer in order to be restored to the fellowship and oneness with God that was experienced in Eden. So I don't think it's surprising that that concept was there, people just took it and it became changed into various forms as the cultures developed, and even though they may have held onto the idea, the addition of other gods or pagan practices corrupted it, so that's I think why the gospel was needed, to bring people back to the one true religion.

GOD does not give the people a religion. GOD gives them the message that can crush death. Death is an enemy. That means ageing, sickness and death is not something that we should give into. And the only way to conquer it is by HIS messages that can immortalise the body in life. Ressurection is made up two words: Raise or erection. Compare with: LIfe and death i put before you, choose life. I am the resurrection and the life - two different things!

There are those that are resurrected and must be transfigured first to enter into heaven. Then there are those that transfigured in life without dying at all. This what HE was saying. I can resurrect you from the dead, or erect you in life. Choose life. The path to life is narrow and the gate is strait and only few found it. Yes, only few transfigured in life. And that few is Enoch and Elijah.

 

[metis]

The word "savior" being used in this way is wrong. I figure it was a non-Jewish person who wrote this, taking his best guess at how to describe the concept of the messiah, and failing to do so.

So, exactly how is it supposedly wrong? Please be specific. But read the rest of this post before answering because I'm getting the impression we may be talking past each other.

Find a source better than wikipedia.

I sometimes use Wikipedia because it isn't linked to any one religion or denomination. Thus, if you believe something they say is false, then instead of making a blanket condemnation, let me recommend you be specific.

Refer to my previous post... the word for Messiah and Savior in Hebrew may appear similar, but they are not from the same root. They cannot and may not be used interchangeably.

I never said they were synonymous. However, they may directly relate in some contexts. In Judaism, for example, a "messiah" usually is usually interpreted as to being a "savior". In Christianity, Jesus is believed to be the "messiah" and is also considered to be our "savior".

The importance is to look at the literal interpretation of both from the Hebrew, which I provided in a previous post.

 

[Skywalker]

The word "savior" being used in this way is wrong. I figure it was a non-Jewish person who wrote this, taking his best guess at how to describe the concept of the messiah, and failing to do so.

Find a source better than wikipedia.

Refer to my previous post... the word for Messiah and Savior in Hebrew may appear similar, but they are not from the same root. They cannot and may not be used interchangeably.

The concept of the Messiah in the Tanakh is that of a Savior. What does Messiah mean? | GotQuestions.org

The Jews of Jesus’ day expected the Messiah to redeem Israel by overthrowing the rule of the Romans and establishing an earthly kingdom (see Acts 1:6). It wasn’t until after Jesus’ resurrection that His disciples finally began to understand what the prophecies in the Old Testament really meant the Messiah would do (see Luke 24:25–27). The Messiah was “anointed” first to deliver His people spiritually; that is, to redeem them from sin (John 8:31–36). He accomplished this salvation through His death and resurrection (John 12:32; John 3:16). Later, Jesus the Messiah will deliver His people from their physical enemies, when He sets up His Kingdom on the earth (see Isaiah 9:1–7).

 

[Poisonshady313]

The concept of the Messiah in the Tanakh is that of a Savior.

No.

 

[Skywalker]

No.

Isaiah 53:4-11

Surely he took up our pain
and bore our suffering,
yet we considered him punished by God,
stricken by him, and afflicted.
But he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was on him,
and by his wounds we are healed.
We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
each of us has turned to our own way;
and the Lord has laid on him
the iniquity of us all.

He was oppressed and afflicted,
yet he did not open his mouth;
he was led like a lamb to the slaughter,
and as a sheep before its shearers is silent,
so he did not open his mouth.
By oppression and judgment he was taken away.
Yet who of his generation protested?
For he was cut off from the land of the living;
for the transgression of my people he was punished.
He was assigned a grave with the wicked,
and with the rich in his death,
though he had done no violence,
nor was any deceit in his mouth.

Yet it was the Lord’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
and though the Lord makes his life an offering for sin,
he will see his offspring and prolong his days,
and the will of the Lord will prosper in his hand.
After he has suffered,
he will see the light of life and be satisfied;
by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many,
and he will bear their iniquities.

 

[1213]

Salvation comes from merit not grace.

Please tell, why do you think so?

 

[dybmh]

Please tell, why do you think so?

The story of Cain: Gen 4:7, ...if you improve you will be forgiven...

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Isaiah 53:4-11

Surely he took up our pain
and bore our suffering,
yet we considered him punished by God,
stricken by him, and afflicted.
But he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was on him,
and by his wounds we are healed.
We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
each of us has turned to our own way;
and the Lord has laid on him
the iniquity of us all.

He was oppressed and afflicted,
yet he did not open his mouth;
he was led like a lamb to the slaughter,
and as a sheep before its shearers is silent,
so he did not open his mouth.
By oppression and judgment he was taken away.
Yet who of his generation protested?
For he was cut off from the land of the living;
for the transgression of my people he was punished.
He was assigned a grave with the wicked,
and with the rich in his death,
though he had done no violence,
nor was any deceit in his mouth.

Yet it was the Lord’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
and though the Lord makes his life an offering for sin,
he will see his offspring and prolong his days,
and the will of the Lord will prosper in his hand.
After he has suffered,
he will see the light of life and be satisfied;
by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many,
and he will bear their iniquities.

Not about the messiah.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

So, exactly how is it supposedly wrong? Please be specific. But read the rest of this post before answering because I'm getting the impression we may be talking past each other.

I sometimes use Wikipedia because it isn't linked to any one religion or denomination. Thus, if you believe something they say is false, then instead of making a blanket condemnation, let me recommend you be specific.

I never said they were synonymous. However, they may directly relate in some contexts. In Judaism, for example, a "messiah" usually is usually interpreted as to being a "savior". In Christianity, Jesus is believed to be the "messiah" and is also considered to be our "savior".

The importance is to look at the literal interpretation of both from the Hebrew, which I provided in a previous post.

The word Messiah/Mashiach means anointed. Being anointed authorizes an individual for a certain position of authority. Kings, prophets, and priests were anointed. THE messiah is anointed as King.

A savior is something altogether different. You can save someone from drowning. God was our savior when he delivered us from Egypt.

 

[Skywalker]

Not about the messiah.

Isaiah 53 is not read in synagagues anymore after people started discussing if the verse refers to the Messiah. How Do Orthodox Jews Read Isaiah 53? - BJU Seminary

Now, that’s not to say that Jewish interpreters have historically just completely ignored this passage. The standard Jewish interpretation for the last 1000 years is that the “servant” in this passage is the nation of Israel itself, whose history of suffering has atoning value for the sins of all the other nations. (See this site, for example.) It’s an interpretation that bristles with all sorts of problems, but that’s for another post. It’s enough for the present purpose to raise one simple question: If Isaiah 53 describes Israel’s national suffering as God’s servant on behalf of the whole world, and promises a glorious future in which she will be exalted and rewarded by God for all her sufferings, would you expect a passage like that to be so scrupulously avoided? Wouldn’t you expect this, of all passages, to be cherished and included in the Jews’ yearly reading of the OT? You cannot see what you will not look at.

 

[Harel13]

Isaiah 53 is not read in synagagues anymore after people started discussing if the verse refers to the Messiah. How Do Orthodox Jews Read Isaiah 53? - BJU Seminary

That article is complete drivel. Do you know how many portions of Tanach are not read in synagogue? I'll clue you in: A ton. Why? Because the Tanach readings in synagogue are not intended to cover the entire Tanach. They serve a different purpose. They're not like the Torah readings, which do cover the entire Torah.

Now, do Jews study Isaiah 53? We most certainly do. This is evidenced by the fact that we have debated with you, @Skywalker, countless times over this.

That missionary claiming he shows "Orthodox Jews" Isaiah 53 and they state it's about Jesus? Either they weren't Orthodox Jews, who have actually studied the Tanach, or he's a complete and utter liar. Knowing Messianic missionaries, I'm voting for the latter.

I recommend actually checking out your sources and scooting away from those lying missionaries.

 

[Rival]

Isaiah 53 is not read in synagagues anymore after people started discussing if the verse refers to the Messiah. How Do Orthodox Jews Read Isaiah 53? - BJU Seminary

The Jewish liturgy is not like the Christian one. In the Christian one they read the 'OT' and the 'NT' in a year (or 3, depends) side by side. The whole Tanakh is not utilised like this in Jewish worship. There are set portions that are read.

 

[Skywalker]

That article is complete drivel. Do you know how many portions of Tanach are not read in synagogue? I'll clue you in: A ton. Why? Because the Tanach readings in synagogue are not intended to cover the entire Tanach. They serve a different purpose. They're not like the Torah readings, which do cover the entire Torah.

Now, do Jews study Isaiah 53? We most certainly do. This is evidenced by the fact that we have debated with you, @Skywalker, countless times over this.

That missionary claiming he shows "Orthodox Jews" Isaiah 53 and they state it's about Jesus? Either they weren't Orthodox Jews, who have actually studied the Tanach, or he's a complete and utter liar. Knowing Messianic missionaries, I'm voting for the latter.

I recommend actually checking out your sources and scooting away from those lying missionaries.

Isaiah 53 used to be read in synagagues but after people started discussing if it was about Jesus the rabbis stopped reading it as much.

 

[Harel13]

Isaiah 53 used to be read in synagagues but after people started discussing if it was about Jesus the rabbis stopped reading it as much.

Can you provide evidence of this that is not from a missionary site?

 

[Skywalker]

Can you provide evidence of this that is not from a missionary site?

I believe that following the teachings of Jesus are not convenient for our human nature and people want to suppress beliefs that they secretly agree with.

 

[Rival]

I believe that following the teachings of Jesus are not convenient for our human nature and people want to suppress beliefs that they secretly agree with.

2.4 billion people disagree with you.