How can a Jew reject Jesus as the Messiah?

[Skywalker]

Any time in Isaiah the metaphor of servant is used, it is speaking of Israel. You will find that Isaiah tells us that the servant is Israel several times.

Ancient Judaism believed that that prophecy was messianic. The Astonishing Servant of Jehovah

Now let me give you a little history. Ancient Jews interpreted this prophecy as messianic originally, okay? In all the ancient Jewish literature, this chapter, 53, this whole area, whole section, mid-section of the final 27, it was all messianic. All of it was messianic, though they were not clear on how the Messiah would suffer. When they came to chapter 53, they wrote this, the rabbis wrote this, “That He will be compassionate, that He will sympathetically feel our pain,” and that’s as far as they would go.

They understood that He would be a sympathetic Messiah, that He would be a righteous King, put another way, who felt so sorry that such a noble people had suffered so greatly that He felt their pain. They saw no messianic substitutionary death in spite of the fact that every day of their history animals were dying, portraying substitutionary death. All they saw in their writing was sympathy, sympathy. This messianic view of this section, by the way, shows up in the Jewish liturgy for the Day of Atonement.

 

[RabbiO]

Ancient Judaism believed that that prophecy was messianic. The Astonishing Servant of Jehovah

Any website that would include this rabidly antisemitic crap - "Don't be under any illusions about first-century Judaism being acceptable to God. It wasn't then and it isn't now, and the leaders of Jewish religion, the Pharisees, the architects of the existing religious belief system that dominated the populace, were God mockers, not God worshippers." - is a website that I would run from, not quote from.

The fact that this is not the first time you have cited material from the internet that openly denigrates Jews and Judaism is disturbing and not a little frightening.

 

[Skywalker]

Any website that would include this rabidly antisemitic crap - "Don't be under any illusions about first-century Judaism being acceptable to God. It wasn't then and it isn't now, and the leaders of Jewish religion, the Pharisees, the architects of the existing religious belief system that dominated the populace, were God mockers, not God worshippers." - is a website that I would run from. not quote from.

The fact that you continue to cite material from the internet that openly denigrates Jews and Judaism indicates is disturbing and not a little frightening.

I don't agree with him judging people's walk with God. I wasn't trying to promote that aspect of what he was talking about.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Ancient Judaism believed that that prophecy was messianic. The Astonishing Servant of Jehovah

Your source is nothing but a Christian sermon. You really think this is an adequate source on ancient Judaism? Oh please.

 

[TrueBeliever37]

Any time in Isaiah the metaphor of servant is used, it is speaking of Israel. You will find that Isaiah tells us that the servant is Israel several times.

If it is Israel as you say, why and how would Israel bear the iniquities of others?
Why would Israel be wounded for our transgressions? etc. Isaiah 53:4-10
That doesn't even make sense.

 

[Skywalker]

Your source is nothing but a Christian sermon. You really think this is an adequate source on ancient Judaism? Oh please.

The rabbis changing their opinion after Christ came is very similar to commercialism having Santa Claus having what appears to to be the book of life mentioned in Revelation-that people try to find replacements for Jesus.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

If it is Israel as you say, why and how would Israel bear the iniquities of others?
Why would Israel be wounded for our transgressions? etc. Isaiah 53:4-10
That doesn't even make sense.

Vicarious suffering is defined as 'suffering in place of and for the benefit of others'. The study establishes that while a number of terms and practices in the Old Testament express the idea of vicariousness, the concept of vicarious suffering finds its fullest and dramatic expression in Isaiah 52:13–53:12

 

[dybmh]

The rabbis changing their opinion after Christ came is very similar to commercialism having Santa Claus having what appears to to be the book of life mentioned in Revelation-that people try to find replacements for Jesus.

Hi Skywalker,

I read the sermon you provided. It doesn't cite any sources ( why would it? it's a sermon... )

I think you need to keep researching this until you fnd an ancient Jewish source which interprets Isaiah 53 in the manner you suggest.

Then we can talk about something tangible.

Does that sound fair?

 

[IndigoChild5559]

The rabbis changing their opinion after Christ came is very similar to commercialism having Santa Claus having what appears to to be the book of life mentioned in Revelation-that people try to find replacements for Jesus.

You haven't shown this to be true. It's a common made up accusation that "the Jews changed things because of Jesus". You need to find an ancient Jewish source that does as you claim, and quote and cite THAT. Then we can have a great discussion.

 

[Skywalker]

Vicarious suffering is defined as 'suffering in place of and for the benefit of others'. The study establishes that while a number of terms and practices in the Old Testament express the idea of vicariousness, the concept of vicarious suffering finds its fullest and dramatic expression in Isaiah 52:13–53:12

Doesn't that mean that Isaiah 53 talks about vicarious suffering as well?

 

[Skywalker]

You haven't shown this to be true. It's a common made up accusation that "the Jews changed things because of Jesus". You need to find an ancient Jewish source that does as you claim, and quote and cite THAT. Then we can have a great discussion.

There are so many different explanations amongst rabbis for who the Messiah is. Those hateful words cannot be of God.

Rabbi Ovadia Yosef said With one ‘poof’ he will blow them all away, who are the nations of the world? What are they? When the our righteous Messiah comes he will not be afraid of anyone. And will send all these Arabs to hell.

 

[Skywalker]

Hi Skywalker,

I read the sermon you provided. It doesn't cite any sources ( why would it? it's a sermon... )

I think you need to keep researching this until you fnd an ancient Jewish source which interprets Isaiah 53 in the manner you suggest.

Then we can talk about something tangible.

Does that sound fair?

How many rabbis during or before the time of Jesus believed that Isaiah 53 wasn't about the Messiah?

 

[dybmh]

How many rabbis during or before the time of Jesus believed that Isaiah 53 wasn't about the Messiah?

My earliest source is over 1000 years after Jesus. That's why I think you need to find an ancient source. I can't find one.

 

[Skywalker]

My earliest source is over 1000 years after Jesus. That's why I think you need to find an ancient source. I can't find one.

What about the common teaching of Messiah Ben Joseph and Messiah Ben David? That belief matches the seemingly contradictory descriptions of the image of the Messiah coming to suffer and die and coming ruling, reigning, and conquering.

 

[dybmh]

What about the common teaching of Messiah Ben Joseph and Messiah Ben David? That belief matches the seemingly contradictory descriptions of the image of the Messiah coming to suffer and die and coming ruling, reigning, and conquering.

The problem with that interpretation is: the two messiahs come from different tribes. So it doesn't fit with the idea of Jesus' 2nd coming.

 

[Skywalker]

The problem with that interpretation is: the two messiahs come from different tribes. So it doesn't fit with the idea of Jesus' 2nd coming.

But the essence of who those Messiahs are matches who the Bible says Jesus is. I'm not saying that Messiah Ben Joseph and Messiah Ben David are Jesus, I believe that some of the details of who they are comes from the same scriptures that talk about Jesus.

 

[dybmh]

But the essence of who those Messiahs are matches who the Bible says Jesus is. I'm not saying that Messiah Ben Joseph and Messiah Ben David are Jesus, I believe that some of the details of who they are comes from the same scriptures that talk about Jesus.

Why not?

 

[Skywalker]

Why not?

You said that they came from different tribes. Do you mean mutually exclusive, or the tribe names they mentioned happened to be different? If the tribes they mentioned happened to be different, it's possible they shared both ancestry and thus could be the same person.

 

[dybmh]

You said that they came from different tribes. Do you mean mutually exclusive, or the tribe names they mentioned happened to be different? If the tribes they mentioned happened to be different, it's possible they shared both ancestry and thus could be the same person.

There isn't shared ancestry in Judaism, as far as I know.

 

[Skywalker]

There isn't shared ancestry in Judaism, as far as I know.

Don't all Jews descend from Abraham? In a distant sense we are all related. Jacob married his cousin.