How can a Jew reject Jesus as the Messiah?

[Skywalker]

The problem with that interpretation is: the two messiahs come from different tribes. So it doesn't fit with the idea of Jesus' 2nd coming.

Judaism talks about the Messiah being both a suffering son of Joseph and a reigning son of David. Jesus suffered for our sins and the Bible says that he will reign in the future.

 

[TrueBeliever37]

Vicarious suffering is defined as 'suffering in place of and for the benefit of others'. The study establishes that while a number of terms and practices in the Old Testament express the idea of vicariousness, the concept of vicarious suffering finds its fullest and dramatic expression in Isaiah 52:13–53:12

When you look at the totality of these scriptures, it is definitely more likely to be describing the suffering of the Messiah than Israel.

 

[metis]

Romans 1:20.



Because of God's marvelous creation, people will have no excuse on judgement day for why they didn't find out who it was that designed this grand universe.

Ah, but with the Romans' citation* you have inadvertently established my point along the Einstein/Spinoza/naturalistic line of thinking because it basically says one can better contemplate God through witnessing Nature** itself.

* "For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse."

** Spinoza often used "Nature" as another name for God since he believed they were so intertwined.

 

[Skywalker]

Ah, but with the Romans' citation* you have inadvertently established my point along the Einstein/Spinoza/naturalistic line of thinking because it basically says one can better contemplate God through witnessing Nature** itself.

* "For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse."

** Spinoza often used "Nature" as another name for God since he believed they were so intertwined.

We also don't know how God deals with people in different dispensations. Acts 17:30

And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent

 

[metis]

We also don't know how God deals with people in different dispensations. Acts 17:30

Correct, imo. Or is it "Gods"?

 

[Skywalker]

Correct, imo. Or is it "Gods"?

The term Echad supports that the Trinity is in the Old Testament, and the Trinity is different from polytheism because the essence of the Father, Spirit, and Son, are the same. The Shema and the Shahada

Fourth, the Shema says that Yahweh is God: “Hear O Israel, the LORD our God [i.e. Eloheinu], the LORD is one.” This word is a combination of Elohim, a plural noun for God in Hebrew, and nu, a plural pronoun meaning “our”, showing once again and definitively that God’s oneness does not mean that He is a blank and barren monad, as is the case with Allah;4 rather, Yahweh Elohim [the LORD God] is a unity of rich diversity, and this diversity is personal in nature.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

When you look at the totality of these scriptures, it is definitely more likely to be describing the suffering of the Messiah than Israel.

No its not. The metaphor of the servant is used throughout the book of Isaiah, and Isaiah identifies the servant on numerous occasions as Israel. It's really that simple.

 

[Skywalker]

No its not. The metaphor of the servant is used throughout the book of Isaiah, and Isaiah identifies the servant on numerous occasions as Israel. It's really that simple.

The servant songs don't support that the servant is Israel. Is Jesus God’s Servant or Son? Pt. 4

Jesus as the Suffering Servant of Yahweh

The second reason why pais is better rendered as servant is because the context of Acts makes it clear that Jesus is being referred to as the Suffering Servant mentioned in the book of Isaiah, the One whom God appointed and empowered by his Spirit to bring justice and salvation to all the nations and to offer his life as an atoning for sins. These prophecies are commonly referred to as the Servant Songs and are four in number (cf. Isaiah 42:1-7; 49:1-10; 50:4-10; 52:13-53:12).

In fact, the Greek version of Isaiah known as the Septuagint (LXX) renders the Hebrew word for servant (ebed) as pais!

Note, for the instance, the following prophecy:

“Hearken to me, ye islands; and attend, ye Gentiles; after a long time it shall come to pass, saith the Lord: from my mother’s womb he has called my name: and he has made my mouth as a sharp sword, and he has hid me under the shadow of his hand; he has made me as a choice shaft, and he has hid me in his quiver; and said to me, Thou art my servant (doulos mou), O Israel, and in thee I will be glorified. Then I said, I have laboured in vain, I have given my strength for vanity and for nothing: therefore is my judgment with the Lord, and my labour before my God. And now, thus saith the Lord that formed me from the womb to be his own servant, to gather Jacob to him and Israel. I shall be gathered and glorified before the Lord, and my God shall be my strength. And he said to me, It is a great thing for thee to be called my servant (paida mou), to establish the tribes of Jacob, and to recover the dispersion of Israel: behold, I have given thee for the covenant of a race, for a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation to the end of the earth. Thus saith the Lord that delivered thee, the God of Israel, Sanctify him that despises his life, him that is abhorred by the nations that are the servants of princes: kings shall behold him, and princes shall arise, and shall worship him, for the Lord’s sake: for the Holy One of Israel is faithful, and I have chosen thee. Thus saith the Lord, In an acceptable time have I heard thee, and in a day of salvation have I succored thee: and I have formed thee, and given thee for a covenant of the nations, to establish the earth, and to cause to inherit the desert heritages: saying to them that are in bonds, Go forth; and bidding them that are in darkness shew themselves. They shall be fed in all the ways, and in all the paths shall be their pasture. They shall not hunger, neither shall they thirst; neither shall the heat nor the sun smite them; but he that has mercy on them shall comfort them, and by fountains of waters shall he lead them.” Isaiah 49:1-10 LXX

 

[Skywalker]

Whether or not there were failed prophecy doesn't matter if Jesus was preaching a new or different religion.

The Old Testament wasn't a different relationship with God from what's in the New Testament.

Ezekiel 3:16-19 doesn't detract from the belief that the Old Testament saints put their trust in the coming Messiah and believing that he alone can save them.

Now it came to pass at the end of seven days that the word of the LORD came to me, saying, “Son of man, I have made you a watchman for the house of Israel; therefore hear a word from My mouth, and give them warning from Me: When I say to the wicked, ‘You shall surely die,’ and you give him no warning, nor speak to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life, that same wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood I will require at your hand. Yet, if you warn the wicked, and he does not turn from his wickedness, nor from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but you have delivered your soul.

It's consistent with Acts 20:26-27

Therefore, I declare to you today that I am innocent of the blood of any of you. For I have not hesitated to proclaim to you the whole will of God.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

The servant songs don't support that the servant is Israel. Is Jesus God’s Servant or Son? Pt. 4

Skywalker the servant is a consistant metaphor that weaves throughout the entire book of Isaiah. What it is in one place, it is in all places.

Jesus is not spoken of in the Tanakh. He is a false messiah.

 

[Skywalker]

Skywalker the servant is a consistant metaphor that weaves throughout the entire book of Isaiah. What it is in one place, it is in all places.

Jesus is not spoken of in the Tanakh. He is a false messiah.

How was Israel exalted after their suffering? What are the four Servant Songs in Isaiah? | GotQuestions.org

Answer: There are four “Servant Songs” of Isaiah that describe the service, suffering, and exaltation of the Servant of the Lord, the Messiah. All four songs show the Messiah to be God’s meek and gentle Servant. He is a royal figure, representing Israel in its ideal form; He is the high priest, atoning for the sins of the world. Isaiah predicts that this Servant of the Lord would deliver the world from the prison of sin. In the royal terminology of the ancient Near East, a servant was a “trusted envoy,” a “confidential representative,” or “one who is chosen.” The Servant Songs are found in Isaiah 42:1–9; Isaiah 49:1–13; Isaiah 50:4–11; and Isaiah 52:13—53:12.

Isaiah initially identifies God’s servant as Israel (41:8; 44:1–2), who serves as God’s witness (43:10) and as a light to the Gentiles. Yet Israel could not fulfill this mission: Israel was deaf, blind (42:19), and in need of God’s forgiveness (44:21–22). Israel failed again and again. By contrast, God’s Servant, the Messiah, faithfully completes all the work He is given to do (cf. Luke 13:32; John 17:4). The Servant of the Lord is God’s faithful and true witness to humanity.

 

[Skywalker]

Skywalker the servant is a consistant metaphor that weaves throughout the entire book of Isaiah. What it is in one place, it is in all places.

Jesus is not spoken of in the Tanakh. He is a false messiah.

The name of the Messiah is not mentioned in the Tanakh, yet people still have faith that Messiah Ben Joseph and Messiah Ben David are the Messiah.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

How was Israel exalted after their suffering? What are the four Servant Songs in Isaiah? | GotQuestions.org

Skywalker, either you believe the prophet or you don't.

Please do not continue to send me links. I do not read them. If I want to surf the web, I can do that on my own time. I come into the forum to talk to YOU. I'm sure you can put your ideas into your own words.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

The name of the Messiah is not mentioned in the Tanakh, yet people still have faith that Messiah Ben Joseph and Messiah Ben David are the Messiah.

There is no Messiah ben Joseph.

 

[Skywalker]

Skywalker, either you believe the prophet or you don't.

Please do not continue to send me links. I do not read them. If I want to surf the web, I can do that on my own time. I come into the forum to talk to YOU. I'm sure you can put your ideas into your own words.

What do you think it means that Israel prolonged their days after their suffering?

 

[Skywalker]

There is no Messiah ben Joseph.

Messiah Ben Joseph is a political figure and Messiah Ben David is the final redeemer. That is similar to verses in the Tanakh that talk about the Messiah ruling Israel and that he bore our griefs.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

What do you think it means that Israel prolonged their days after their suffering?

What do you think it means?

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Messiah Ben Joseph is a political figure and Messiah Ben David is the final redeemer. That is similar to verses in the Tanakh that talk about the Messiah ruling Israel and that he bore our griefs.

There is no Messiah ben Joseph, so your comments make no sense. It's like saying there is a white sun and a blue sun, and then going on to describe the purpose of each.

 

[Skywalker]

What do you think it means?

I think it's a reference to the ressurection of Jesus. The Messiah couldn't prolong his days if he died like a mortal man.

 

[Skywalker]

There is no Messiah ben Joseph, so your comments make no sense. It's like saying there is a white sun and a blue sun, and then going on to describe the purpose of each.

I believe that the teachings of two Messiahs who each have different roles is based off the second advent of the Messiah being something that is hinted about in the Tanakh. It's not directly stated but it's implied and is consistent with the Tanakh.