God appeared to Abraham before the judgement of Sodom and Gommorah.
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How can a Jew reject Jesus as the Messiah?
- Thread starter ayin
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God appeared to Abraham before the judgement of Sodom and Gommorah.
Abraham called God Adonai, not the two angels.
True. The One and only True Monotheistic God. In Hebrew Adonai and Elohim are the titles for God.
That shows that Abraham didn't just meet angels he met God.
Yes, It was God, and not Jesus Christ.
Jesus Christ is God incarnated. God appeared to Abraham as a man in the Old Testament.
An interpretation that is not based on the literal translation of the text.
Nothing in the text could possibly be interpreted that Abraham was talking to anyone else than God based on actual Hebrew in the text. According to the Hebrew Adonai and Elohim only refer to the Hebrew Monotheistic God no other.
Please note: This is simply a direct translation of the text, and not an interpretation to justify anything.
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Christians don't worship a man. Jesus was God incarnated. He incarnated in the Old Testament. Is Jesus Christ The Angel of The Lord? – Finding Christ In The Old Testament
Tzephanyahu
Member
Hi @shunyadragon
How about later in the same passage in which it reads...
"Then Yahweh rained brimstone and fire on Sodom and Gomorrah, from Yahweh out of the heavens." - Genesis 19:24
This hints that the man who Abraham spoke with was the Word of Yahweh, in physical form, having the authority of Yahweh but not Yahweh El Elyon Himself.
But let's suppose the man met was indeed Yahweh El Elyon, as you say. Who, in your opinion, was worthy enough to walk at His right and left side?
If you suppose that they were Malakhim, then why would Yahweh visit directly Himself? Wasn't it the two other men who actually went to see the iniquity in Sodom?
I personally fail to logic for El Elyon to come down, in the form of a man backed with two others, to speak with Abraham and then return above. We can't find this pattern elsewhere in the Scriptures. The closest we get is the Malak of Yahweh or the Word of Yahweh descending to earth - having the full authority of Yahweh, yet not Yahweh El Elyon Himself.
This Word of Yahweh seems to be the pre-incarnate Messiah, as promised in Micah 5:2 - “But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, Though you are little among the thousands of Judah, Yet out of you shall come forth to Me The One to be Ruler in Israel, Whose goings forth are from of old, From everlasting.”
None of the above changes anything as to the translation in Hebrew is specific and literal as cited. 'How about,' is not relevant.
Tzephanyahu
Member
Indeed, and your statement doesn't change the fact of two Yahweh's being mentioned in Genesis 19:24 or the fact you avoided the questions.
Throughout the Scriptures we see the "Word of Yahweh" appearing to man, and then referred to the same passage as "Yahweh". It shows an entity operating as Yahweh as a direct ambassador, but not Yahweh Himself. This clearly explains the visitation to Abraham. But I'm guessing you have it that El Elyon popped down directly for a quick visit. If this was so, then who was the Yahweh in the heavens who reigned down the brimstone Genesis 19:24 I wonder...
But it is a great excuse to say the "Hebrew is specific and literal" when needed, and I'm sure it will be "open to interpretation" when avoiding other challenges.
A spit in the face of people who think the Mashiach is god. He's not. He's a man of God, but not God Himself.
The actual literal Hebrew in all cases above and others do not change the Fact that the terms refer to the One and only Monotheistic True God. There are not any Hebrew scholars in Judaism that will agree with your later day western interpretation.
Tzephanyahu
Member
Yes, I'm sure you are right. Rabbinic Judaism was born out of the Pharisaic movement of the first century, as I'm sure you are aware.
I'm sure you are also aware that the majority of the Pharisees weren't onside with the Messiah in the first century.
You may not be aware how the Pharisees eventually adapted the Scriptures with the creation of the Masoretic Text, which deviated from the widely-accepted Septuagint and Aramaic Targums of the the day, with particular focus on changing passages pertaining to the Messiah. These changes have been well-documented in historic record.
So yes, I'm sure "Hebrew scholars in Judaism" wouldn't agree with an interpretation which would make them very uncomfortable as a result.
I'm sorry what? Where did you learn this nonsense?
I think it's time to make a thread on the Masoretic text, at the very least.
Go for it. It's annoying we can't discuss on the RT anymore, but it's a good idea.
Isaiah 9:6 describes the Messiah as God, not a man of God.
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counseller, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
So Moses is also god, right?
Moses was never called the mighty God. That title belongs to God and God alone.