How can someone be a male and be a feminist at the same time?

[Mathematician]

Then it is a systemic problem and must be addressed on a public policy level, not by requiring individual women to take responsibility for not being raped.

You're muddying a very reasonable approach by invoking gender in the first place. I completely agree with your statement that the larger sociological issue is violence, not sexual violence or any distinguishing sub-categories, but thus far the thread focused only on a particular result - rape rates. I realize this is a topic about feminism and thus sexual violence is the most relevant issue, but when you then talk about 'teaching boys' or similar remarks you are ignoring the numerous studies conducted in violent societies like South Africa that show tremendous amounts of violence towards men by women compared to other countries. It's not just that men in South Africa are all brutes and the women are innocents.

South Africa's society and culture (at the moment) is violent, which leads to an alarming rate of sexual violence committed by everyone.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

You're flat out wrong. All your arguments are built upon a claim that I didn't make. Let me spell it out for you like I would a 5 year old child....

Oh, this is heartwarming.

1. Having a car alarm, doesn't mean that you think all human being and animals are thieves or vandals.
2. Keeping your child close and taking precautions with your child, does NOT imply that you think all people are kidnappers.
3. Keeping your door locked does NOT mean that you view all humans as burglars.
4. Taking precautions as a woman because of strength inferiority, does NOT imply that all men are rapists or succumb to their sexual desires.

Taking precautions as a woman because there's a good chance she might be raped by a man implies that men are prone to violent behavior.

Either you have great difficulty understanding simple concepts or you are unwilling to understand. I hope it's the former.

Nope. You're arguing with everybody else in this thread, and many who are well-educated and have participated greatly in debates such as this. So, it is neither of your possibilities. I understand what you are saying, but I just disagree with it.

Moreover, I am an advocate for the death penalty yes. It's unfortunately not being applied in Europe right now. In fact, rape isn't even being taken seriously, maybe because of the increase in false cries of rape and other factors.

Increase in false rape cries? Good heavens, man...you aren't saying that out of the 40% of women who are raped in South Africa that some of them are false accusations, and that's why they're not taken seriously?

Look, either you're putting the burden on women to keep themselves safe in South Africa by protecting themselves and shrugging the shoulders at those who rape them by saying they just can't control themselves, or you're blaming the victim by saying that there's too many false rape accusations so nobody is taking them seriously.

Either way, you're suggesting that the best way to prevent more rape is to hold women more accountable for their own safety by not being so out in the open, so dishonest, and so naive of their surroundings. And those big bad men in South Africa? ....well, be afraid of them because those big bad men in South Africa just can't control themselves. [/sarcasm]

Yeah, I and others understand exactly where you're coming from. It isn't a comprehension problem. It's an ethical disagreement.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

You're muddying a very reasonable approach by invoking gender in the first place. I completely agree with your statement that the larger sociological issue is violence, not sexual violence or any distinguishing sub-categories, but thus far the thread focused only on a particular result - rape rates. I realize this is a topic about feminism and thus sexual violence is the most relevant issue, but when you then talk about 'teaching boys' or similar remarks you are ignoring the numerous studies conducted in violent societies like South Africa that show tremendous amounts of violence towards men by women compared to other countries. It's not just that men in South Africa are all brutes and the women are innocents.

South Africa's society and culture (at the moment) is violent, which leads to an alarming rate of sexual violence committed by everyone.

Eh, let's hope sunni reads this, too, and takes this into consideration.

Because, you know, only one person in this thread has suggested that the men in South Africa are brutes and women are innocents....and it wasn't Alceste.

 

[Alceste]

I'm pretty sure most healthy males have sexual desires too, but you don't see them go out and commit rape because of it. Obviously there are other factors involved in rape that have nothing to do with being "horny."

I'm quite confident you will find other forms of violence (war being an obvious example) are endemic wherever rape is endemic, and to about the same degree. Historically, rape has always been a bonus prize for men who successfully sack an enemy village. My cousin works in some of the worst places on the world - refugee camps in Darfur, for example. She interviews people from conflict zones for resettlement in Europe or north America. The prevailing view in that line of work is that virtually all women are at risk of sexual violence in every war zone. But not so much in Germany or Canada. I wonder why that would be... Must be because the men from those countries get too horny to control themselves and the women are too stupid to be cautious. Obvious!

 

[Willamena]

Oh, this is heartwarming.



Taking precautions as a woman because there's a good chance she might be raped by a man implies that men are prone to violent behavior.



Nope. You're arguing with everybody else in this thread, and many who are well-educated and have participated greatly in debates such as this. So, it is neither of your possibilities. I understand what you are saying, but I just disagree with it.



Increase in false rape cries? Good heavens, man...you aren't saying that out of the 40% of women who are raped in South Africa that some of them are false accusations, and that's why they're not taken seriously?

Look, either you're putting the burden on women to keep themselves safe in South Africa by protecting themselves and shrugging the shoulders at those who rape them by saying they just can't control themselves, or you're blaming the victim by saying that there's too many false rape accusations so nobody is taking them seriously.

Either way, you're suggesting that the best way to prevent more rape is to hold women more accountable for their own safety by not being so out in the open, so dishonest, and so naive of their surroundings. And those big bad men in South Africa? ....well, be afraid of them because those big bad men in South Africa just can't control themselves. [/sarcasm]

Yeah, I and others understand exactly where you're coming from. It isn't a comprehension problem. It's an ethical disagreement.

:clap

 

[sunni56]

1) I've addressed this here.

2) No, that's not what I'm claiming. I'm claiming that they shouldn't have to take precautions and feel the need to constantly worry about getting sexually assaulted, because there are ways to deal with criminals without burdening people with taking precautions that would normally be unnecessary.

3) If you're arguing that they must take precautions because of men who "can't control their desires," then that's what your argument seems to imply. How does arguing that they should constantly be on the watch for rapists not imply living in fear and intimidation?

2) If that's not what you're claiming, we're on the same team on that point then
3) Not what I said dear. I said women should take precautions in South Africa or whenever they feel they need to due to potential violence. That's why people sign up for karate or boxing classes, that's why we fit alarms on our cars. Not because we think the rest of the world are scum (with the exception of South Africa where many many men are rapists). Do you understand?

 

[Alceste]

You're muddying a very reasonable approach by invoking gender in the first place. I completely agree with your statement that the larger sociological issue is violence, not sexual violence or any distinguishing sub-categories, but thus far the thread focused only on a particular result - rape rates. I realize this is a topic about feminism and thus sexual violence is the most relevant issue, but when you then talk about 'teaching boys' or similar remarks you are ignoring the numerous studies conducted in violent societies like South Africa that show tremendous amounts of violence towards men by women compared to other countries. It's not just that men in South Africa are all brutes and the women are innocents.

South Africa's society and culture (at the moment) is violent, which leads to an alarming rate of sexual violence committed by everyone.

I think you'll find I'm not the one who keeps trying to refocus the conversation specifically on sexual violence by men against women outside the context of learned violence in general, wherever violence is endemic. I agree with you. Wherever rape is common, all forms of violence are also common, both for men and for women.

I am curious though as to who south African women are raping at the same rate as men are raping women. Have you got anything I could read on that subject?

My understanding is that we tend to assault those we perceive to be less powerful than ourselves, which would suggest that female violence would be more likely to be against children than men.

 

[sunni56]

Oh, this is heartwarming.

Taking precautions as a woman because there's a good chance she might be raped by a man implies that men are prone to violent behavior.

Nope. You're arguing with everybody else in this thread, and many who are well-educated and have participated greatly in debates such as this. So, it is neither of your possibilities. I understand what you are saying, but I just disagree with it.

Increase in false rape cries? Good heavens, man...you aren't saying that out of the 40% of women who are raped in South Africa that some of them are false accusations, and that's why they're not taken seriously?

Look, either you're putting the burden on women to keep themselves safe in South Africa by protecting themselves and shrugging the shoulders at those who rape them by saying they just can't control themselves, or you're blaming the victim by saying that there's too many false rape accusations so nobody is taking them seriously.

Either way, you're suggesting that the best way to prevent more rape is to hold women more accountable for their own safety by not being so out in the open, so dishonest, and so naive of their surroundings. And those big bad men in South Africa? ....well, be afraid of them because those big bad men in South Africa just can't control themselves. [/sarcasm]

Yeah, I and others understand exactly where you're coming from. It isn't a comprehension problem. It's an ethical disagreement.

1. False. Women who do not take precautions when they are being openly and blatantly targeted in mass rapes are stupid. Whether you understand that or not is irrelevant, because that's a fact.

2. You can't disagree with facts. You think a woman should just not worry about being targeted when they are clearly a a target in South Africa. That's stupidity and an insult to the intelligence of women around the world.

3. Nope, I didn't say anything about false rapes in South Africa dear. I was talking about Europe. Better read more carefully next time.

4. Nope, not putting burden on women. I just said they should take care of themselves. As for dealing with rapists, my position is clear; death penalty.

5. If you have evidence that there doesn't exist at least 1 man who raped due to them being horny, please provide it, I'l be waiting

6. You clearly do have a comprehension problem, since you're accusing me of making points that I didn't make dear

 

[Kerr]

Can you prove that? Perhaps they have a disorder? Perhaps they feel overwhelmed by their need for sexual fulfillment so they feel they have to satisfy themselves violently in order to move on in life? I don't know. You're making the claims, give me the proof.

In what way are you not making claims? From my perspective, you are.

As someone who has a disorder I can say that having a disorder is not an excuse. Nor does it put a gun to your head and force you to harm people. Having a disorder means you have some problems. It doesnt define who you are. It doesnt determine what you will do. And it doesnt say that you cannot handle your problems. Its insulting to suggest that a disorder takes away someones choice. It doesnt. Its also insulting to suggest that people in South Africa would be somehow less mentally sane then the west.

Another thing. If you have an uncontrollable desire to harm someone, then that is not a disorder, that is something else entirely, and you need professional help to deal with it.

 

[sunni56]

Because, you know, only one person in this thread has suggested that the men in South Africa are brutes and women are innocents....and it wasn't Alceste.

If you're suggesting myself, then please point out where I said men in South Africa are brutes and women in South Africa are innocent. This is hilarious, can't wait for the response to that one...your lies will always catch up with you. You can't get away with BS.

 

[Willamena]

5. If you have evidence that at least 1 man doesn't rape due to them being horny, please provide it, I'l be waiting

http://www.militarysexoffendersregistry.com/Rapists.html

 

[Kerr]

Again, strawman alert. Please refer to my argument, not a made-up argument. The user explicitly claimed that nobody rapes due to being horny. They need to back that up.

Perhaps I should clarify. No one rapes due to being horny because it requires a serious problematic attitude towards women. That attitude is the cause. Not being horny. I have met enough rape victims to know that.

 

[outis]

dear

dear

Can you call me dear too?

 

[sunni56]

In what way are you not making claims? From my perspective, you are.

As someone who has a disorder I can say that having a disorder is not an excuse. Nor does it put a gun to your head and force you to harm people. Having a disorder means you have some problems. It doesnt define who you are. It doesnt determine what you will do. And it doesnt say that you cannot handle your problems. Its insulting to suggest that a disorder takes away someones choice. It doesnt. Its also insulting to suggest that people in South Africa would be somehow less mentally sane then the rest of the west.

Another thing. If you have an uncontrollable desire to harm someone, then that is not a disorder, that is something else entirely, and you need professional help to deal with it.

So basically, you have no evidence for your own claims? That's a concern, since you were so forcefully putting that your view out there...and yet you can't back it up. A great shame. Perhaps you should agree with me, that we simply don't know why each man rapes.

 

[Debater Slayer]

2) If that's not what you're claiming, we're on the same team on that point then
3) Not what I said dear. I said women should take precautions in South Africa or whenever they feel they need to due to potential violence. That's why people sign up for karate or boxing classes, that's why we fit alarms on our cars. Not because we think the rest of the world are scum (with the exception of South Africa where many many men are rapists). Do you understand?

Yes, I understand the points you're trying to make. That doesn't mean I agree with them though.

As long as you keep saying that some men (or women, for that matter, since the argument would make as much sense or lack thereof if it was applied to either gender) commit rape due to inability to control their sexual desires, then I don't see how it doesn't follow from that argument that men should generally be viewed as slaves of their desires who are to be feared for their lack of self-control.

It's not like South Africa or any of the other countries where rape is relatively common are the only places men desire sex.

 

[Kerr]

So basically, you have no evidence for your own claims? That's a concern, since you were so forcefully putting that your view out there...and yet you can't back it up. A great shame. Perhaps you should agree with me, that we simply don't know why each man rapes.

All I know is that men who rape women has problematic attitude towards them. Would you like to provide an example with a rapist man who doesnt have a problematic attitude towards woman?

 

[sunni56]

Profiles Of Rapists - The Four Profiles Of A Rapist - Rapists Profiles

I actually worded that wrong. I'll be changing the wording now but I still have to give you credit. You're probably the only person who has provided a solid rebuttal argument, even if it was done cheekily Good on you.

 

[sunni56]

Perhaps I should clarify. No one rapes due to being horny because it requires a serious problematic attitude towards women. That attitude is the cause. Not being horny. I have met enough rape victims to know that.

So you've changed your position, now that you have found out you have no evidence? Instead of criticizing you, I'm congratulating you. Good.

 

[Willamena]

I actually worded that wrong. I'll be changing the wording now but I still have to give you credit. You're probably the only person who has provided a solid rebuttal argument, even if it was done cheekily Good on you.

Your wording change gets the same rebuttal. People rape due to anger, to loneliness, and to (the aforementioned) attitude towards others of differing, or in some cases similar, gender.

 

[Kerr]

So you've changed your position, now that you have found out you have no evidence? Instead of criticizing you, I'm congratulating you. Good.

No, thats what I have been arguing all along. I said no one rapes due to being horny. They rape because they have a ****** up attitude towards women. I confess I could maybe have been more clear on my position, but my position has been the same all along.