How can someone be a male and be a feminist at the same time?

[sunni56]

Yes, I understand the points you're trying to make. That doesn't mean I agree with them though.

As long as you keep saying that some men (or women, for that matter, since the argument would make as much sense or lack thereof if it was applied to either gender) commit rape due to inability to control their sexual desires, then I don't see how it doesn't follow from that argument that men should generally be viewed as slaves of their desires who are to be feared for their lack of self-control.

It's not like South Africa or any of the other countries where rape is relatively common are the only places men desire sex.

Wow, you don't agree that women should protect themselves in South Africa, despite inadequate policies dealing with out of control rapes and a climate of intimidation towards women? I'm shocked.

Actually, my position is that we don't know whether or not any man raped due to his inability to control his desires. This is a neutral position to take. If you want to claim otherwise, please provide the evidence.

 

[Kerr]

Wow, you don't agree that women should protect themselves in South Africa, despite inadequate policies dealing with out of control rapes and a climate of intimidation towards women? I'm shocked.

Actually, my position is that we don't know whether or not any man raped due to his inability to control his desires. This is a neutral position to take. If you want to claim otherwise, please provide the evidence.

They definately should protect themselves if they live in that situation. But they shouldnt have to and the society should do whatever it can to change the situation.

 

[sunni56]

Your wording change gets the same rebuttal. People rape due to anger, to loneliness, and to (the aforementioned) attitude towards others of differing, or in some cases similar, gender.

So you think you have evidence that all rapists didn't rape due to them being horny? I didn't think you could document the names of all the rapists worldwide, let alone provide a reason for them raping. May I see the evidence please?

 

[Willamena]

So you think you have evidence that all rapists didn't rape due to them being horny? I didn't think you could document the names of all the rapists worldwide, let alone provide a reason for them raping. May I see the evidence please?

Here, have a goalpost, on me.

 

[sunni56]

Here, have a goalpost, on me.

No evidence. No surprises there.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

1. False. Women who do not take precautions when they are being openly and blatantly targeted in mass rapes are stupid. Whether you understand that or not is irrelevant, because that's a fact.

You say it's a "fact" that women are stupid when they don't take precautions when they are targeted.

Not only have men in South Africa been lumped together as vicious brutes that can't control themselves, now women are lumped together as being stupid if they don't take enough precautions. And apparently this is a "fact" that I can't argue.

Can you point to sociological studies that provide evidence of women not taking precautions and testing as "stupid"?

2. You can't disagree with facts. You think a woman should just not worry about being targeted when they are clearly a a target in South Africa. That's stupidity and an insult to the intelligence of women around the world.

If they are clearly a target in South Africa, everybody should be concerned, and the answer is NOT to focus on women arming themselves, but dealing with the complexities of that society to address what are the root causes of the violence....and it isn't because men get too horny.

3. Nope, I didn't say anything about false rapes in South Africa dear. I was talking about Europe. Better read more carefully next time.

Then leave Europe out of it, because apparently it has nothing to do with this discussion about violence in South Africa.

4. Nope, not putting burden on women. I just said they should take care of themselves. As for dealing with rapists, my position is clear; death penalty.

What should the men in South Africa do, in your opinion?

5. If you have evidence that at least 1 man doesn't rape due to them being horny, please provide it, I'l be waiting

See here from a report at the Center for Sex Offender Management.

When an individual commits rape, he is interested in overpowering and possessing complete control and dominance over his victim. Victims are often viewed by the rapists as weak and easily dominated. Rapists do not care about the emotions of their victims (as some child molesters do), and their primary interests are self-gratification, dominance, and control. Another difference between child molesters and rapists is that some rapists will victimize an individual once, then move on to others, which is much less likely with child molesters. Finally, rapists engage in penetration or specific sexual acts with their victims, as opposed to the high incidence of fondling that is commonly associated with child molestation.

No mention of anyone getting horny. It's an act of violence.

6. You clearly do have a comprehension problem, since you're accusing me of making points that I didn't make dear

It clearly seems that you are having that same exact problem with most other people in this thread, dear. I wonder why that is....

 

[Willamena]

You say it's a "fact" that women are stupid when they don't take precautions when they are targeted.

Not only have men in South Africa been lumped together as vicious brutes that can't control themselves, now women are lumped together as being stupid if they don't take enough precautions. And apparently this is a "fact" that I can't argue.

Can you point to sociological studies that provide evidence of women not taking precautions and testing as "stupid"?

I don't know... first, we'd have to examine their brain chemistry, and then look for evidence of that one stupid woman who did this, to prove our case.

 

[Debater Slayer]

Wow, you don't agree that women should protect themselves in South Africa, despite inadequate policies dealing with out of control rapes and a climate of intimidation towards women? I'm shocked.

No. I don't agree that they should have to. If rape becomes so common that people are automatically expected to learn self-defense techniques to avoid it, then something must be done about it through comprehensive policies rather than just individual attempts to counter it.

Actually, my position is that we don't know whether or not any man raped due to his inability to control his desires. This is a neutral position to take. If you want to claim otherwise, please provide the evidence.

And my position is that someone would clearly have to have issues to commit violence against another person, be it rape or any other form of violence. Only a small subset of people who mostly have the same desires rape, murder, steal, etc. Lack of self-control isn't an excuse.

 

[sunni56]

1. You say it's a "fact" that women are stupid when they don't take precautions when they are targeted.

Not only have men in South Africa been lumped together as vicious brutes that can't control themselves, now women are lumped together as being stupid if they don't take enough precautions. And apparently this is a "fact" that I can't argue.

Can you point to sociological studies that provide evidence of women not taking precautions and testing as "stupid"?

2. If they are clearly a target in South Africa, everybody should be concerned, and the answer is NOT to focus on women arming themselves, but dealing with the complexities of that society to address what are the root causes of the violence....and it isn't because men get too horny.

3. Then leave Europe out of it, because apparently it has nothing to do with this discussion about violence in South Africa.

4. What should the men in South Africa do, in your opinion?

5. See here from a report at the Center for Sex Offender Management.

No mention of anyone getting horny. It's an act of violence.

6.It clearly seems that you are having that same exact problem with most other people in this thread, dear. I wonder why that is....

1. Yes, women are stupid for not taking precautions in South Africa. This can be proven through logical deduction.

2. I didn't say the only focus should be arming women; quit making up arguments. I didn't say that men being horny is the root problem in South Africa, again, you're making up arguments. Let me google that for you

3. You're the one that brought up a comment I made about Europe, not me. Take responsibility for your own posts.

4. I'm not obliged to answer any question about men in South Africa. You're not entitled to my responses on anything, I won't be dancing to your tune.

5. Perhaps you should google what "self-gratification" means Let me google that for you

Moreover, you haven't provided evidence for your claim. Where is the evidence that all male rapists in the world do not do it due to being horny. I'm waiting...

6. Stop misrepresenting my arguments, it's just childish.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

I don't know... first, we'd have to examine their brain chemistry, and then look for evidence of that one stupid woman who did this, to prove our case.

Well, durrrrr..... :bonk:

 

[sunni56]

No. I don't agree that they should have to. If rape becomes so common that people are automatically expected to learn self-defense techniques to avoid it, then something must be done about it through comprehensive policies rather than just individual attempts to counter it.

And my position is that someone would clearly have to have issues to commit violence against another person, be it rape or any other form of violence. Only a small subset of people who mostly have the same desires rape, murder, steal, etc. Lack of self-control isn't an excuse.

Two things to note here firstly:

1. You are discussing a hypothetical scenario, not a practical one. Women are raped frequently in South Africa their lives and dignity are at stake and you don't believe they should protect themselves? That's reprehensible.

2. You used the word "just"; suggesting that individual attempts at protection should be made alongside strong government policies or whatever else you have in mind. That kind of defeats your point, that women shouldn't protect themselves in toto.

3. Lastly, you haven't provided the evidence that nobody rapes due to 'horniness'. Are you admitting it is just baseless or what now?

 

[MysticSang'ha]

1. Yes, women are stupid for not taking precautions in South Africa. This can be proven through logical deduction.

2. I didn't say the only focus should be arming women; quit making up arguments. I didn't say that men being horny is the root problem in South Africa, again, you're making up arguments. Let me google that for you

3. You're the one that brought up a comment I made about Europe, not me. Take responsibility for your own posts.

*yawns*

4. I'm not obliged to answer any question about men in South Africa. You're not entitled to my responses on anything, I won't be dancing to your tune.

Hold up. Fair is fair. You want me to provide evidence, I obliged. Now you're ducking your part in the debate? That's just rude.

5. Perhaps you should google what "self-gratification" means Let me google that for you

From your google search:

"the act of pleasing or satisfying oneself, esp. the gratifying of one's own impulses, needs, or desires."

Nope, no sex or horniness in this definition. It's a broad definition, obviously.

Moreover, you haven't provided evidence for your claim. Where is the evidence that all male rapists in the world do not do it due to being horny. I'm waiting...

Sure I did. Here, try another:

According to Ruth Seifert4, sexual violence is not sexually driven, but rather a sexual expression of aggression. Patricia Rozée5, and Groth and Birnbaum6, examining motivations for rape in peacetime, also propose explanatory models belonging in this category.
Seifert7 proposes five theses to explain the cultural models which influence the behaviour of individual perpetrators.
• War is presented as a ritualised, finely regulated game. Violence against women in the conquered territory is conceded to the victor in the immediate post-war period as one of the ‘rules’ of this game.
• Abuse of women is perceived as an element of male communication. Seifert states, “Rape can be considered the final symbolic expression of the humiliation of the male opponent...it communicates from man to man...that the men around the women in question are not able to protect “their women”.”
• Rapes result from the masculinity associated with armed forces, which is exaggerated in times of conflict. Constructions of masculinity in armies become equated with power, and within this culture, lead to an inclination to rape.
• Rapes aim at destroying the opponent’s culture. According to this theory, women assume especial significance in the existence of a community due to their central role in the mainstay of the family, through which continuity in the culture and the society is ensured. By striking at the heart of the community structure, the attacking side destroys its opposition.
• Rape is culturally-rooted contempt of women that is acted out in times of crisis and thus rape results from a pre-existing animosity, which can be acted upon with a high likelihood of impunity.

Source

6. Stop misrepresenting my arguments, it's just childish.

Stop moving the goalposts. It's dishonest.

 

[Kerr]

3. Lastly, you haven't provided the evidence that nobody rapes due to 'horniness'. Are you admitting it is just baseless or what now?

Do you understand the difference between being horny and raping and raping due to being horny ?

 

[sunni56]

*yawns*



Hold up. Fair is fair. You want me to provide evidence, I obliged. Now you're ducking your part in the debate? That's just rude.



From your google search:

"the act of pleasing or satisfying oneself, esp. the gratifying of one's own impulses, needs, or desires."

Nope, no sex or horniness in this definition. It's a broad definition, obviously.



Sure I did. Here, try another:



Source



Stop moving the goalposts. It's dishonest.

*yawns*

If that's the level of debate you want, then so be it

 

[sunni56]

Do you understand the difference between being horny and raping and raping due to being horny ?

Yes. It's the latter I'm interested in Kerr...

 

[Kerr]

Yes. It's the latter I'm interested in Kerr...

I know. I am just arguing that its the former. Just wanted to ask so there was no misunderstanding or anything, because I am of course not saying rapists arent horny when they rape, just that its not the cause .

 

[Debater Slayer]

Two things to note here firstly:

1. You are discussing a hypothetical scenario, not a practical one. Women are raped frequently in South Africa their lives and dignity are at stake and you don't believe they should protect themselves? That's reprehensible.

2. You used the word "just"; suggesting that individual attempts at protection should be made alongside strong government policies or whatever else you have in mind. That kind of defeats your point, that women shouldn't protect themselves in toto.

3. Lastly, you haven't provided the evidence that nobody rapes due to 'horniness'. Are you admitting it is just baseless or what now?

1) Again: They shouldn't have to make individual attempts to avoid getting raped; there should be comprehensive policies to deal with that instead. It may be preferable for a woman living in South Africa in the current circumstances to learn how to defend herself, but the circumstances that make such preferable are the root of the problem that should be addressed.

2) I didn't say that they shouldn't defend themselves at all. If you read my previous posts as well as the first part of this post, you'll see that what I disagree with is the notion that women must learn to defend themselves because it's expected that men won't be able to control themselves and commit rape as a result.

3) You still haven't answered my question: With the number of healthy males who experience strong sexual desires, why is it that only a small subset of men commit rape? Could it be that sexual desire per se isn't really the reason and there are more issues than men just being "too horny"?

 

[MysticSang'ha]

*yawns*

If that's the level of debate you want, then so be it

Care to respond to the link I provided about sexual violence not being sexually motivated?

 

[Alceste]

Profiles Of Rapists - The Four Profiles Of A Rapist - Rapists Profiles

They forgot to put "horny men who just can't be bothered to find a dirty magazine and a bottle of lotion" on that list. Or "men who can't control their sexual urges".

 

[Alceste]

So basically, you have no evidence for your own claims? That's a concern, since you were so forcefully putting that your view out there...and yet you can't back it up. A great shame. Perhaps you should agree with me, that we simply don't know why each man rapes.

All your posts of this nature are extremely ironic, as you've presented no evidence at all supporting your own position (that men rape only because they are horny and can't control themselves). Why should our burden of proof be higher than yours? Yours is the outlying opinion. Ours (that rape is about violence, not being horny) is the consensus opinion. You need to work harder.