How can you be a True Christian™ if you don't take the Eden story literally?

[YoursTrue]

Ok

Wicca is a very individualist religion with no set doctrind on the conceptualization of the Lady and Lord. The primary diety is usually a Triple Goddess with the traditional aspects of Maiden, Mother and Crone. These correspond to several things such as the life phases; waxing, full, and waning moon; seasons where autum/winter is considered to be the Crone and some other more esoteric stuffl. She is also generally seen as the creator of the Earth. She is the spirit of the world.

The Horned God is her consort and usually subordinate. He is more tied with primal physicality of nature.

Those are generalities, and they will vary in amazing ways between indivifdual sects and persons.

editL I am answering because I was Wiccan. Once upon a time.

oh oh oh thank you though for answering. I guess I'm finished between the lady and the lord.

 

[ppp]

Ok

oh oh oh thank you though for answering. I guess I'm finished between the lady and the lord.

Finished? Is that an autocorrect error?

 

[CG Didymus]

There's the sworn statement of witnesses
to the gold books.

As Twain noted, it couldn't be more convincing
if everyone in his family had signed it

Which shows that it's not that hard to invent a set of Scriptures and get people to believe in them.

Like there is this one religion that has all kinds of strange things in their Scriptures, and people still believe it. Talking animals, dead people coming to life, a staff that turns into a snake, a person that can walk on water... amazing, unbelievable stuff. But that doesn't bother some people... They believe it is all true.

 

[Ponder This]

In case of Hinduism, heaven is guaranteed for all good people, even if they are not Hindus. Even Gods cannot deprive them of their right.
For those who may have sinned, compensate to the maximum extent one can and do not repeat. Again, no Gods necessary.

Sin is against God. Heaven is not a right. It is a priviledge of those judged worthy.

True, I doubt that a lot of Christians are aware that Christianity is merely an answer to a problem created by Judaism. In fact all the different Christian sects are breakaways from problems created by previous churches.

I can see how a problem in an existing Church would cause a break-away sect, but I'm not so sure that every break-away sect is because of a problem in the previous Church.

Sincere in what belief? The central tenet of Christianity is that man is born into sin fit for perdition unless he is washed in the blood of the lamb, which means he believes that Christ died for his sins so that he might know everlasting life. Christianity teaches that this state man finds himself in is his own fault for his disobedience to God, which began with the first two human beings. Remove that last part, and what's left but a god that chooses to punish man due to no fault of his own?

Sincere in his belief. One person can say this; another person can say that. Some may say that "All Christians believe 'X'", but to be true is none of that. You're placing the emphasis on the belief instead of placing the emphasis on the sincerity. So there's this story and many who claim to be Christian claim to believe in the story. But few of them could recite the story precisely, word for word as it is written in some authoritative text somewhere. Are many Christians honestly Christian yet they cannot recite the literal story? How can this be? The answer is that the story is more than the sum of its parts - the spirit of the word.
This is different from the use of the word "true" to indicate some sort of litmus test. The OP by using the phrase "True Christian" alludes to the generization fallacy - Appeal to Purity. The trap is to fall into the notion of a spliting Christians into the two groups: "Christians" and "True Christians" on the basis of taking the story of the Fall of Man "literally". No True Christian...

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

Actually, I didn't mean it for you. I should have written it, "I wonder what the Baha'i answer to this will be." But we only have one Baha'i here, and it's hard to tell what's her opinion and what is official Baha'i beliefs.

I apologize if I misunderstood you, CG.

I don't think that you'll get accurate information about the Baha'i Faith by asking a Wiccan, a Christian, or an atheist. I believe that if you want to learn more about a religion, you should ask people who practice it, not those who don't, and especially not antagonistic people who only want to discredit it.

 

[F1fan]

Sin is against God. Heaven is not a right. It is a priviledge of those judged worthy.

This isn't relevant to anyone outside of the Abrahamic religions. Do you agree?

I can see how a problem in an existing Church would cause a break-away sect, but I'm not so sure that every break-away sect is because of a problem in the previous Church.

All of Christianity is breakaway sects.

Sincere in his belief. One person can say this; another person can say that. Some may say that "All Christians believe 'X'", but to be true is none of that. You're placing the emphasis on the belief instead of placing the emphasis on the sincerity. So there's this story and many who claim to be Christian claim to believe in the story. But few of them could recite the story precisely, word for word as it is written in some authoritative text somewhere. Are many Christians honestly Christian yet they cannot recite the literal story? How can this be? The answer is that the story is more than the sum of its parts - the spirit of the word.
This is different from the use of the word "true" to indicate some sort of litmus test. The OP by using the phrase "True Christian" alludes to the generization fallacy - Appeal to Purity. The trap is to fall into the notion of a spliting Christians into the two groups: "Christians" and "True Christians" on the basis of taking the story of the Fall of Man "literally". No True Christian...

The trap is what some Christians have created themselves.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Sin is against God. Heaven is not a right. It is a priviledge of those judged worthy.

Every one knows what is right and what is wrong according to the rules of society or country. It does not require a God's decision. And if a person has done right, not even a God can deny him the rewards, the religion that the person follows is immaterial. That is how it is in theist Hinduism. I am an atheist Hindu. I do not believe in existence of God or soul.

 

[CG Didymus]

I apologize if I misunderstood you, CG.

I don't think that you'll get accurate information about the Baha'i Faith by asking a Wiccan, a Christian, or an atheist. I believe that if you want to learn more about a religion, you should ask people who practice it, not those who don't, and especially not antagonistic people who only want to discredit it.

I think it an important question. And you asked it to a Baha'i. But there's still, no answer.

I'm referring to these verses on predestination: "What does the Bible say about Predestination?" And here is another reference: "What is predestination?"

From the first link...

Ephesians 1:5 ESV / 409 helpful votes​

He predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,​

Romans 8:29 ESV / 384 helpful votes​

For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.​

Romans 8:28-30 ESV / 352 helpful votes Helpful Not Helpful​

And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.​

​

Those verses contradict what TB has been saying. So, if what she's saying is based on Baha'i teachings, then Baha'is should have an answer to why they disagree with those verses from the NT about predestination.

 

[lukethethird]

How can you be a True Christian™ if you don't take the Eden story literally?​

I'm a true Christian and I don't take the story literally. Besides, the way I read it, the snake told the truth and God lied.

 

[Trailblazer]

Actually, I didn't mean it for you. I should have written it, "I wonder what the Baha'i answer to this will be." But we only have one Baha'i here, and it's hard to tell what's her opinion and what is official Baha'i beliefs.

@CG Didymus said: And what is the Baha'i response to this? Actually, if there is a God, I would think it would be actively choosing and guiding people. But then... why did God create the people that would not believe and then punish them for not believing? Or worse, for believing in the wrong religion and getting punished for it.

God does guide people who make an effort to believe.

“Whoso maketh efforts for Us,” he shall enjoy the blessings conferred by the words: “In Our Ways shall We assuredly guide him.””​

Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 266-267​

God guides those people who are guidable, but God cannot guide those people who rebel against Him without violating their free will.

"Some were guided by the Light of God, gained admittance into the court of His presence, and quaffed, from the hand of resignation, the waters of everlasting life, and were accounted of them that have truly recognized and believed in Him. Others rebelled against Him, and rejected the signs of God, the Most Powerful, the Almighty, the All-Wise.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 145​

God did not create the people that would not believe and then punish them for not believing. God created everyone capable of believing, but for various reasons some people are unable to use their capabilities and other people choose not to believe. I don't believe anyone is punished for believing in the wrong religion. The worst that can happen is that they do not receive the same reward as those who believe in the latest Messenger of God.

 

[Trailblazer]

I think it an important question. And you asked it to a Baha'i. But there's still, no answer.

You got your answer now (see above).

I am not sure what scriptures you are referring to but I do not believe that God selects individuals for salvation. I believe that God allows people to freely choose.

From the first link...

Ephesians 1:5 ESV / 409 helpful votes​

He predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,​

Romans 8:29 ESV / 384 helpful votes​

For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.​

Romans 8:28-30 ESV / 352 helpful votes Helpful Not Helpful​

And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.​

​

Those verses contradict what TB has been saying. So, if what she's saying is based on Baha'i teachings, then Baha'is should have an answer to why they disagree with those verses from the NT about predestination.

There is some truth to those verses since people can be predestined by God to make the choice to believe, thus there is no contradiction between free will and predestination.

That is congruent with what Baha'u'llah said about God enabling certain people to recognize the Cause of Baha'u'llah. It was predestined that they would choose to recognize this Cause. Note what it says about being guided.

“Be thankful to God for having enabled you to recognise His Cause. Whoever has received this blessing must, prior to his acceptance, have performed some deed which, though he himself was unaware of its character, was ordained by God as a means whereby he has been guided to find and embrace the Truth. As to those who have remained deprived of such a blessing, their acts alone have hindered them from recognising the truth of this Revelation. We cherish the hope that you, who have attained to this light, will exert your utmost to banish the darkness of superstition and unbelief from the midst of the people. May your deeds proclaim your faith and enable you to lead the erring into the paths of eternal salvation. The memory of this night will never be forgotten. May it never be effaced by the passage of time, and may its mention linger for ever on the lips of men.”

(Baha'u'llah, quoted by Shoghi Effendi in The Dawn-Breakers, p. 586)

The Dawn-Breakers: Nabíl’s Narrative of the Early Days of the Bahá’í Revelation, p. 586

 

[Mark Charles Compton]

For those of you who don't take the story of the Fall literally. Adam, Eve, Tree, Serpent, etc, how do you envision the Fall of Man happening? And if it didn't happen, what use is Jesus?

Ancient tales representing the evolution from hunter gatherers to pastoral and arable farmers. Also, many references to the discovery of inebriation through fermentation and experimentation.

 

[Aupmanyav]

.. that they do not receive the same reward as those who believe in the latest Messenger of God.

What reward and when? And what is the guarantee for that?
Believe and fatten the coffers of your House of Justice so thyat they can spread their spiel?

 

[CG Didymus]

Sincere in his belief. One person can say this; another person can say that. Some may say that "All Christians believe 'X'", but to be true is none of that. You're placing the emphasis on the belief instead of placing the emphasis on the sincerity. So there's this story and many who claim to be Christian claim to believe in the story. But few of them could recite the story precisely, word for word as it is written in some authoritative text somewhere. Are many Christians honestly Christian yet they cannot recite the literal story? How can this be? The answer is that the story is more than the sum of its parts - the spirit of the word.
This is different from the use of the word "true" to indicate some sort of litmus test. The OP by using the phrase "True Christian" alludes to the generization fallacy - Appeal to Purity. The trap is to fall into the notion of a spliting Christians into the two groups: "Christians" and "True Christians" on the basis of taking the story of the Fall of Man "literally". No True Christian...

I think there's enough variety in Christianity that at some point a line has to be drawn, and the people below it are not "true" Christians. Except, the line is drawn by those that think that they are the "true" Christians... and they do take the Eden story and the Fall literally. And they leave off people who sincerely believe like JW's, Mormon, some liberal Christian Churches, Seventh-Day Adventists and some might even put Catholics on that list.

Now even among those that have the "right" beliefs, might not be sincere. And they don't make the cut either. But, for me, now on the outside looking in, sincerity was always a problem and there was no way to tell who really was sincere about being a "true" believer. It was too easy to just appear to be a good Christian.

 

[idea]

I apologize if I misunderstood you, CG.

I don't think that you'll get accurate information about the Baha'i Faith by asking a Wiccan, a Christian, or an atheist. I believe that if you want to learn more about a religion, you should ask people who practice it, not those who don't, and especially not antagonistic people who only want to discredit it.

Like, if you want to learn more about communism, just talk to communists - don't talk to those who fight against it - just talk to communists...

Or, if you want a truck, just talk directly to Ford - don't talk to anyone else, don't talk to the repair shops for sure - you should only read and talk to authorized Ford dealers.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Like, if you want to learn more about communism, just talk to communists - don't talk to those who fight against it - just talk to communists...

Or, if you want a truck, just talk directly to Ford - don't talk to anyone else, don't talk to the repair shops for sure - you should only read and talk to authorized Ford dealers.

Did she even imply that one would only talk to a Baha'i?

 

[idea]

Did she even imply that one would only talk to a Baha'i?

"accurate information" often doesn't come from the salesman.

 

[Subduction Zone]

"accurate information" often doesn't come from the salesman.

That is very true. But then it also does not come from the salesman's competitors. She never implied that she would only talk with Baha'i. You opposition to her talking to the Baha'i indicate that you want her to only talk with those that are not Bahai'i.

Apply this to your religious views. How accurate would the opinions be of your beliefs by someone that only talked to people that opposed Christianity?

Usually the first source that one should go to when learning about a religion is to the believers themselves. That does not mean that one should ignore those that disagree with that religion.

Or in other words, if I asked you what you believe it would probably be far more accurate than if I asked your neighbor what you believed. i might ask your neighbor if your beliefs match your behavior.

 

[idea]

I don't think that you'll get accurate information about the Baha'i Faith by asking a Wiccan, a Christian, or an atheist. I believe that if you want to learn more about a religion, you should ask people who practice it, not those who don't, and especially not antagonistic people who only want to discredit it.

The statement above is a way to control information, claiming only one group's view is "accurate".

Only ask a practicing Nazi if you want to understand Nazis? Don't talk to Jews, don't talk to anyone who doesn't practice it??!!??

Only ask a cattle rancher if you want to understand the meat industry? Don't talk to vegetarians about the meat industry - no "accurate" information there??

Plug in any group, and any other group who opposes them - to get the full picture, have listen carefully to everyone.

 

[Trailblazer]

What reward and when?

The reward is entering Paradise within the Ark of God. The reward comes after we die.

“Say: Is there any doubt concerning God? Behold how He hath come down from the heaven of His grace, girded with power and invested with sovereignty. Is there any doubt concerning His signs? Open ye your eyes, and consider His clear evidence. Paradise is on your right hand, and hath been brought nigh unto you, while Hell hath been made to blaze. Witness its devouring flame. Haste ye to enter into Paradise, as a token of Our mercy unto you, and drink ye from the hands of the All-Merciful the Wine that is life indeed.​

​

Drink with healthy relish, O people of Bahá. Ye are indeed they with whom it shall be well. This is what they who have near access to God have attained. This is the flowing water ye were promised in the Qur’án, and later in the Bayán, as a recompense from your Lord, the God of Mercy. Blessed are they that quaff it.”Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 45-46​

​

“Blessed art thou, O My name, inasmuch as thou hast entered Mine Ark, and art speeding, through the power of My sovereign and most exalted might, on the ocean of grandeur, and art numbered with My favored ones whose names the Finger of God hath inscribed. Thou hast quaffed the cup which is life indeed from the hands of this Youth, around Whom revolve the Manifestations of the All-Glorious, and the brightness of Whose presence they Who are the Day Springs of Mercy extol in the day time and in the night season.”Gleanings, p. 302​

And what is the guarantee for that?

Baha'u'llah has guaranteed it and that is good enough for me.