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How can you justify the sheer complexity that evolution would have to evolve?

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
I know you don’t believe those historical books and that’s OK mate. But you really haven’t given me any proof that they are wrong.
You consistently misuse 'proof' lik other fundimentliss that are intentionally ignorant of academic science, history and archaeology. You have to deal with the ancient mythology of the Genesis Creation accounts, Noah's Arc Flood, and other problems with th ePentateuch
Maybe you aren’t as old as I am… but there was a time when academia believed he didn’t exist. When they found that he did unbelievers, like unto you, said his kingdom wasn’t as big as the books said. However, archaeology continues to find new evidence to support it.
I a most likely as old or older than you, Age is not the issue for those that are intentionally ignorant of academic science, history and archeology.
When it said, “write this down and rehearse it in the ears of Joshua” - they really did write it down.
There is absolutely no evidence that anything was written down before 600 BCE.
But you don’t have to believe it. You don’t have to believe that Jesus died for the sins of humanity either. As my signature says, there are many religions that believe differently and that is perfectly OK. I call it “free will"
As reflected in the history of your posts the belief in other religions is NOT OK from your perspective.
Yes, we have our standby stories that we use when we realize we were barking up the wrong tree. I use to use them too but I found that we simply don’t have enough information. I find it interesting that multiplicity of religions all have the same general story. Why do you think that they do?
No, here are similarities with other religions, but outside the Abrahamic religions they do not have the same story. It is a matter of fact that Judaism and Islam do not accept any version of Christianity.
Yes… we all love to pull out our “fallacy defense”. I would question who is actually using it.
Question it as you like, but it is exactly how you address the problem that there is absolutely no evidence of any writings in Hebrew or the Pentateuch before 600 BCE, and the lack of scientific, historical and archaeological evidence for the Creation accounts and Noah's Flood as well as much of the rest of the narratives of the Pentateuch
But we do have evidence… Books written by different people all agree. The problem lies in that you don’t believe that the books are correct.
No we do not. Books are not evidence.
1 Samuel 12:8
When Jacob was come into Egypt, and your fathers cried unto the Lord, then the Lord sent Moses and Aaron, which brought forth your fathers out of Egypt, and made them dwell in this place.

1 Kings 8:53
For thou didst separate them from among all the people of the earth, to be thine inheritance, as thou spakest by the hand of Moses thy servant, when thou broughtest our fathers out of Egypt, O Lord God.
There is absolutely no evidence that Moses and Jacob ever existed., nor any invasion by Jacob in Canaan which was occupied by Egypt at the time.
1 Chronicles 17:21
And what one nation in the earth is like thy people Israel, whom God went to redeem to be his own people, to make thee a name of greatness and terribleness, by driving out nations from before thy people whom thou hast redeemed out of Egypt?

Just to name a few. All written down for your and my benefit. All written not too long after it happened as far as time is concerned
Citing scripture without independent evidence is circular and does not represent evidence.
Hmmm… opinion.


Opinion.

BUT

Let me remind you that I really don’t have a problem with your unbelief.

Maybe you believe in the words of Mīrzā Ḥosayn ʿAlī Nūrī just because he said what he said. I’m sure you have no problem with my unbelief in what he said. He also wrote things down and we choose what to believe and what not.
This not a matter of belief, but what are the scientific, historical archaeological as a basis of factual accounts
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
They fund him? Are you sure, can you post a source?
The link under his name that you posted - thanks, btw - from the Discovery Institute, doesn’t say they fund him… although he is Research fellow there.

He’s also a professor at Biola Univ. apparently.
Being a research fellow translates as being funded by the Discovery Institute,

A research fellow is an academic research position at a university or a similar research institution, usually for academic staff or faculty members. A research fellow may act either as an independent investigator or under the supervision of a principal investigator.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
wow! wow! wow! I guess the best defense is a strong offense. @YoursTrue On behalf of the male side of mankind, please forgive us for not honoring you.
You have to be kidding. Everyone that has ever tried to help her has complained about how she purposefully keeps herself ignorant. I have seen similar behavior from you. I am constantly amazed at how many Christians are willing to call their own God a liar. You should know by now that if God cannot or does not lie that the book of Genesis cannot be read at all literally.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
You consistently misuse 'proof' lik other fundimentliss that are intentionally ignorant of academic science, history and archaeology. You have to deal with the ancient mythology of the Genesis Creation accounts, Noah's Arc Flood, and other problems with th ePentateuch

I a most likely as old or older than you, Age is not the issue for those that are intentionally ignorant of academic science, history and archeology.

There is absolutely no evidence that anything was written down before 600 BCE.

As reflected in the history of your posts the belief in other religions is NOT OK from your perspective.

No, here are similarities with other religions, but outside the Abrahamic religions they do not have the same story. It is a matter of fact that Judaism and Islam do not accept any version of Christianity.

Question it as you like, but it is exactly how you address the problem that there is absolutely no evidence of any writings in Hebrew or the Pentateuch before 600 BCE, and the lack of scientific, historical and archaeological evidence for the Creation accounts and Noah's Flood as well as much of the rest of the narratives of the Pentateuch

No we do not. Books are not evidence.

There is absolutely no evidence that Moses and Jacob ever existed., nor any invasion by Jacob in Canaan which was occupied by Egypt at the time.

Citing scripture without independent evidence is circular and does not represent evidence.

This not a matter of belief, but what are the scientific, historical archaeological as a basis of factual accounts
Archaeological finds continue to support the books...

So at this time we are between an unstoppable force hitting an immovable rock
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Like they say, :) If you can’t attack the message, attack the messenger

:hugehug:

I thought that you were a Christian. You are now openly breaking the Ninth Commandment. It does not matter if you believe the nonsenses that you post or not, what matters is that you are now bearing false witness (saying untrue things) about your neighbors.

If you cannot clearly support your claims about others as being factual you should never make comments about others. Abraham Lincoln took it a step further. He advocated that even if a person is somehow right when that person makes claims about others that they were not sure of that they were breaking that commandment:

I believe it is an established maxim in morals that he who makes an assertion without knowing whether it is true or false, is guilty of falsehood; and the accidental truth of the assertion, does not justify or excuse him.

Abraham Lincoln
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Archaeological finds continue to support the books...

So at this time we are between an unstoppable force hitting an immovable rock
That is not true. Some archaeological finds support the books. Some go against them. And the last two much ballyhooed ones were shown to be false. I am referring to the "cursing stone"" lead piece and the claims of a meteor and Sodom and Gomorrah.

Your side has people that are totally unqualified to do the work from bogus "Christian" institutes.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
The account was in Hebrew! If you think raqia means a solid dome, then you are the illiterate one.

I am not saying that you are merely “illiterate” as in illiteracy which would mean is you can’t read.

I am saying that you are a “science-illiterate” which you have no understanding or you have poor understanding of Natural Sciences, particularly of Earth Sciences & Astronomy.

As I said, about Genesis 1:14-18, it is claiming that the stars (including the Sun) and the Moon are all created and place inside the dome…this dome have been called all sorts of things, like firmament, vault, expanse, when translated into English, but you are right, in Hebrew, it is raqia or the more precise transliteration raki'a (רקיע). hence, the sun, moon & stars were set inside the raqia.

Genesis 1:7 clearly stated that there are “water above the dome”, with the dome being NRSV translation of raki'a (רקיע)…so the water is above the raqia. And that the raki'a or dome is the “sky” (Genesis 1:8, “God called the dome Sky.”)…which would also mean the water being above the “sky” or as KJV translated it, the “Heaven”, Hebrew šamáyim (שָׁמַיִם).

The main problem is that water above the raki'a, and the raki'a is the šamáyim (Sky or Heaven).

But you are forgetting several things.
One. Genesis - along with 4 other books that were attributed to Moses as the author of the Torah or what the Christians called the Hebrew Torah, the Pentateuch, where Moses supposedly lived in the Late Bronze Age (eg c 1590s to 1050 BCE), or more precisely in the early half of the Egypt’s 18th dynasty (based on what 1 Kings 6:1 say about the “exodus” out of Egypt starting 480 years before Solomon began building his Temple). Except none of these books attributed to Moses existed in these periods. The 5 books only started to appeared in the 6th century BCE, during the time of people of Jerusalem - royalties, aristocrats and priests from Judah were living in exile in Babylon.​
Two. As I said there are no original Late Bronze Age of the Torah or Pentateuch, hence no biblical narratives in the 18th dynasty period. The early Hebrew texts certainly didn’t exist prior to the 11th century BCE. There are evidence of early Hebrew writings in the 10th century BCE, eg inscriptions on the Zayit Stone and the Gezer Calendar, but none of these texts are parts of the biblical narratives.​
What exist in the Late Bronze Age, are only texts and inscriptions written in Canaanite cuneiforms, none of them in Hebrew alphabets.​
As i said earlier, none of the books (eg genesis, Exodus , Numbers, Leviticus & Deuternomy) that were attributed to Moses, were ever found in the Late Bronze Age period. These books of the Torah, only began to appear during the 6th century BCE, Exile in Babylon.​
Three. The people of Judah or Jews in 6th century Babylon would explain, where the Jews got the idea of the Hebrew raqia or raki'a (רקיע) from - they got it from Babylonian astronomy, where the ancient Babylonian astronomers believed the all planetary and stellar bodies exist inside the solid dome.​


You are “science-illiterate” because if knew anything about meteorology and about the Earth atmosphere, then you would and should understand that rain only come from precipitation or from clouds located only from Troposphere, the lowest atmosphere on Earth. As you move up to the next 2 atmospheres, while there are clouds in the Stratosphere and Mesosphere, there are increasingly less water vapour, the higher you study, until there are no water at all, eg Thermosphere, Exosphere.

By the time, you have gone beyond the Karman Line, which is about 100 km above the mean sea level, you have would reach the start of space. The Karman Line is on the lower quarter of the Thermosphere, the area where the Aurora phenomena occurred.

The Exosphere ends about 10,000 km from Earth’s surface, while the moon is about from 362,000 to 405,000 km from Earth (clearly the moon’s orbit around the Earth is elliptical, not circular). And the Sun is about 149 million km from Earth.

I’d highly doubt that the Sun and Moon, are within the Earth’s raki'a or dome. I am very doubtful, more so, that the water above, are water beyond the even the nearest neighbouring stars, eg Alpha Centauri, a triple star system, which is about 4.5 light-year away, or Sirius, a bin star system about 8.7 light-year away.

How could any rain water be beyond these stars that flood the Earth in (mythical) Noah’s time, if the water above the dome or raqia?

That anyone today, believing in the water above the dome, don understand science at all.
 
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shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
Archaeological finds continue to support the books...
False the reverse is more correct. For example there is no archaeological finds that confirm the existence of Moses, Exodus as described in the Bible, Jacob, Noah, the Flood, Biblical Creation account.

What archaeological finds support any of this?
So at this time we are between an unstoppable force hitting an immovable rock
The only unstoppable force is gravity.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
I see opinions here and personal viewpoints. Not saying you can’t have them.

it is not personal viewpoints, that there are large numbers of clay tablets containing older religions than anything written in the Hebrew Scriptures.

in Mesopotamia, people stored large numbers of clay tablets in the archives of scribe schools, where scribe apprentices learned to write cuneiform, often copying famous stories in Assyria, Babylonia, and even in the 3rd millennium BCE, Sumer & the Akkadian dynasty.

In both Late Bronze Age Ugarit and Canaan, there are archives containing hundreds of cuneiform-inscribed clay tablets, while most of them have nothing to do with their respective religions, where they do survive to this day, they are evidence that were written nearly a thousand years before the earliest surviving fragments of Genesis and Exodus.

The fact are, there are no early Genesis or Exodus, or any other Old Testament books, prior to the Exiles at Babylon, in the 6th century BCE.

it is you, who are expressing your personal opinions, opinions that ignored older religious texts that have existed centuries and even millennia before Genesis was composed.
 

Sargonski

Well-Known Member
Again, to state a disbelief in X, is not a claim. It's a response to a claim about X.

Claim: "X is the case".
Response: "I don't believe that".


I have no yet come across any definition for a god that defines such entity in such a way where it sounds even remotely plausible to me that it actually exists.
I have heard LOTS which are self-contradicting and / or which require the assumption of magic etc.
I have heard some which are so vague and unfalsifiable that they don't actually mean anything and / or are indistinguishable from non-existent things.

That's not my problem. It's believers that provide these definition.


I wouldn't know. But I'm quite positive that if an all powerful, all knowing being actually exists, that entity would know EXACTLY what would convince me.

Yes .. it is a claim .. it is a claim not to believe in something..

Claim: X exists .. is a claim that X exists
Counter claim X does not exist .. is a claim that X does not exist.

And you are totally missing the point .. completely lost in the land of fallacy and illogic.

You say you have not come across a remotely plausible definition for X .. ??!!?? which is why I have been asking you to define X .. because without a definition of X .. plausible or otherwise .. neither the claim .. nor the counter claim can be assessed for truth or falsehood..

Thus .. as I have been saying over and over .. This is a claim of nothing .. a claim "I do not believe in nothing" = YOu believe in something .. and this is circular illogical stupidity.

"I have found no plausible definitions" you say. OK .. Right .. which is why I have been asking you to provide a plausible definition. .. for what it is you don't believe in .. as without such .. I have not the faintest idea what it is you don't believe in .. or what you do believe in .. just a meaningless black hole .. into which your brain has sunk.. and unable to find a way out .. despite continuously being pointed in the right direction. ..

but the strangest thing .. is that you are not alone in your inability to speak .. something that very common in my discussions with fundamentalists .. joyful scientific discussions with the young earth creationists.. trying to convince them that when you dig down in your back Yard in Montana .. we don't find the flood layer .. which .. if global flood happened .. would be everywhere that no major tectonic shifts have happened in the past 6000 years .. a very short span of time geologically .. so the layer should not be that deep .. and relatively easy to find.


but --- this is not from the theist crowd .. the literalists who are trained .. by insidious cult leaders in "thought stoping techniques" .. and yes .. this is a real science .. called mind control.

but - this is not from theists that I am getting this brainwashed "Thought Stopping Response" .. this is from altheists ... which is fascinating but also extremely sad .. to see the shackles of sheepdom .. upon so many .. unbeknownst to them .

Do you undersetand what is being suggested here friend ? Why is it you can not answer the simple question .. You meet some entity on the side of the road .. that entity claims to be a God .. what Godlike powers would this entity have to exhibit to convince you that they were a God .. and why .. or why not -- rather than avoiding the question .. deflection or some other mind bending thought stopping sub routine.

So -- as stated .. if you don't think being able to hurl lighting bolts by force of will is a God like power .. explain why not. There is no claim that X exists or does not exist . X clearly exists .. the question is whether or not this is a God-like power .. and if not this then what is a God-Like power .. to claim that nothing is a God like Power .. would be the most ridiculous of non answers. .. and illogical moronicity ... the claim "I don't believe in Nothing" ..

Do you not agree that the claim "I don't believe in Nothing" .. is circular illogicl moronicity .. a non argument .. if you like.

You do understand what an argument is .. Right ? contains 2 things 1) Statement of claim or Premise 2) some evidence, argument, support showing that claim is true.

Now -- please provide a reasonable . .non fallacious (Everything or Nothing being the twin fallacies) definition of a Godly power ?

Do you understand the question ? ... tick tock ... tick tock... .. cause this is like the 5th time I have asked it .. without recieving response... due to major blockage of some kind .. "Thought stopping" device perhaps ?
 

Sargonski

Well-Known Member
False the reverse is more correct. For example there is no archaeological finds that confirm the existence of Moses, Exodus as described in the Bible, Jacob, Noah, the Flood, Biblical Creation account.

What archaeological finds support any of this?

The only unstoppable force is gravity.

More nonsense --- there are plenty of things in the books of the Bible confirmed by archaeological evidence . Once again you take these bold positions on topics in which you have no idea what you are talking about .. often getting things backwards such as Chaos Theory

The use of the word "Confirm" is laughable ....that alone showing non undestanding of material. King Omri was a real King .. ruled over a real and powerful kingdom. The battle between YHWH of the Israelites .. and Chemosh of the Moabites was a real battle ... a battle unfortunately that YHWH lost .. but a real battle never-the- less .. The Moabite Stone .. the story from the Moabite perspective .. confirming the Biblical Tale from the Israelite perspective.

and then you make a further nonsensical and of course unsupported claim that Gravity is the only unstoppable force .. proving once again a lack of creditibility in anything related to science.

There is plenty of evidence of a great flood .. which covered an area so big .. that to the people living in that region in 5000 BC .. this would have been the entire world .. and everything was wiped out .. sans the one family that survived on a boat who is telling the story ... which got passed down over millenia.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
More nonsense --- there are plenty of things in the books of the Bible confirmed by archaeological evidence . Once again you take these bold positions on topics in which you have no idea what you are talking about .. often getting things backwards such as Chaos Theory

The use of the word "Confirm" is laughable ....that alone showing non undestanding of material. King Omri was a real King .. ruled over a real and powerful kingdom. The battle between YHWH of the Israelites .. and Chemosh of the Moabites was a real battle ... a battle unfortunately that YHWH lost .. but a real battle never-the- less .. The Moabite Stone .. the story from the Moabite perspective .. confirming the Biblical Tale from the Israelite perspective.

and then you make a further nonsensical and of course unsupported claim that Gravity is the only unstoppable force .. proving once again a lack of creditibility in anything related to science.
The Pentateuch represents narratives written log after the events recorded supposedly took place. The fact that there is evidence of some some events and possibly persons does not negate the fact that most of the Pentateuch is grounded in legend and mythology and not a factual history

King Omri was a king in the 8th century BCE

Yes there was a Battle recorded at the time by the Moabites that defeated Israel.

Individual facts in the Pentateuch fo not justify the accuracy of the historical narratives.
There is plenty of evidence of a great flood .. which covered an area so big .. that to the people living in that region in 5000 BC .. this would have been the entire world .. and everything was wiped out .. sans the one family that survived on a boat who is telling the story ... which got passed down over millenia.
Evidence for the Tygris Euphrates flood is NOT evidence for the Great Noah Flood believed by Christians for thousands of years, nor is there any evidence for the existence of Noah, Moses or Jacob,
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
wow! wow! wow! I guess the best defense is a strong offense. @YoursTrue On behalf of the male side of mankind, please forgive us for not honoring you.
Thank you, Kenny, I'm getting kind of used to being called names I mean by self-righteous ones. But it's ok. At least this is only a message board and moderated so there are no big big issues. As Jesus said, 'Let your Kingdom come..."
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Thank you, Kenny, I'm getting kind of used to being called names I mean by self-righteous ones. But it's ok. At least this is only a message board and moderated so there are no big big issues. As Jesus said, 'Let your Kingdom come..."
Quit pretending to be a victim. No one has called you names. As the saying goes you reap what you sow. Fix your behavior and you will no longer be treated the way that you have been.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
I know you don’t believe those historical books and that’s OK mate. But you really haven’t given me any proof that they are wrong.



Maybe you aren’t as old as I am… but there was a time when academia believed he didn’t exist. When they found that he did unbelievers, like unto you, said his kingdom wasn’t as big as the books said. However, archaeology continues to find new evidence to support it.

When it said, “write this down and rehearse it in the ears of Joshua” - they really did write it down.

But you don’t have to believe it. You don’t have to believe that Jesus died for the sins of humanity either. As my signature says, there are many religions that believe differently and that is perfectly OK. I call it “free will"



Yes, we have our standby stories that we use when we realize we were barking up the wrong tree. I use to use them too but I found that we simply don’t have enough information. I find it interesting that multiplicity of religions all have the same general story. Why do you think that they do?



Yes… we all love to pull out our “fallacy defense”. I would question who is actually using it.



But we do have evidence… Books written by different people all agree. The problem lies in that you don’t believe that the books are correct.

1 Samuel 12:8
When Jacob was come into Egypt, and your fathers cried unto the Lord, then the Lordsent Moses and Aaron, which brought forth your fathers out of Egypt, and made them dwell in this place.

1 Kings 8:53
For thou didst separate them from among all the people of the earth, to be thine inheritance, as thou spakest by the hand of Moses thy servant, when thou broughtest our fathers out of Egypt, O Lord God.

1 Chronicles 17:21
And what one nation in the earth is like thy people Israel, whom God went to redeem to be his own people, to make thee a name of greatness and terribleness, by driving out nations from before thy people whom thou hast redeemed out of Egypt?

Just to name a few. All written down for your and my benefit. All written not too long after it happened as far as time is concerned





Hmmm… opinion.


Opinion.

BUT

Let me remind you that I really don’t have a problem with your unbelief.

Maybe you believe in the words of Mīrzā Ḥosayn ʿAlī Nūrī just because he said what he said. I’m sure you have no problem with my unbelief in what he said. He also wrote things down and we choose what to believe and what not.
Hi, Kenny. Once again -- I was thinking...(lol) -- and of course many would put down the events that are written in the Bible that occurred between Moses and the Pharaoh. But Pharaoh's magic-practicing priests put out rods that turned into serpents. And then what happened? Moses put out rods that also turned into serpents. So while nay-sayers accuse those who believe in a Creator of believing in "magic" rather than "natural causes," I see they will not admit there is nothing to back up their ideas other than various and sundry fossils that really do not show the miniscule mutational changes that fish, for example, evolved eventually to humans. Can I explain it any further than that in terms of what precisely took place as God created the heavens and the earth? Nope. But surely neither can scientists who believe in the process of evolution really detail their case with detailed evidence. It's all conjecture about what happened.

Exodus 7!10-14
So Moses and Aaron went to Pharaoh and did just as the Lord commanded. Aaron threw his staff down in front of Pharaoh and his officials, and it became a snake. 11Pharaoh then summoned wise men and sorcerers, and the Egyptian magicians also did the same things by their secret arts: 12Each one threw down his staff and it became a snake. But Aaron’s staff swallowed up their staffs. 13Yet Pharaoh’s heart became hard and he would not listen to them, just as the Lord had said.
14Then the Lord said to Moses, “Pharaoh heart is unyielding."
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Quit pretending to be a victim. No one has called you names. As the saying goes you reap what you sow. Fix your behavior and you will no longer be treated the way that you have been.
They haven't called me stupid, dumb, but "uneducated," "pretending to be a victim," "ignorant." While might think that is ok, truthful and good, all I can say is -- So -- have a good day. I have confidence that yes, there is a God greater than ourselves who will settle many things. So take care.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
He is currently the Discovery Institutes leading front man...
I'm not a betting person, but in this case I daresay you'll call those scientists that are part of the Discovery Institute "ignorant," and "uneducated"? What I notice is that instead of coping with actualities, you and others in your line of thought just put it all in a big ball and go rolling along with it...no details, no real evidence.
 

McBell

Unbound
I'm not a betting person, but in this case I daresay you'll call those scientists that are part of the Discovery Institute "ignorant," and "uneducated"?
I call them con men.
Liars For Jesus are still liars.

What I notice is that instead of coping with actualities, you and others in your line of thought just put it all in a big ball and go rolling along with it...no details, no real evidence.
I notice you are still clinging to that same old song and dance.
No one outside your choir is buying it.

Not only does it reek of dishonesty, it says an awful lot of negative things about your favourite chosen deity.
 
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