How can you justify the sheer complexity that evolution would have to evolve?

[John53]

Let's go over this again. Since the position of many scientists is that life evolved from a cellular structure to more complex structures ever so slowly and gradually, eventually going through all the phases of the categories outlined by scientists such as fish, amphibians, apes, etc., that is how their mind set is in regard to the evolution of living forms goes in their minds. Now perhaps we can get back to discussing more about the Devonian period, since it has been said here by some (including you, perhaps?) that there were no mammals during that time period, yet others say there were.

And you know this because of your expertise in the field?

 

[Pogo]

So what happened during the Devonian period? Were there mammals or no mammals during that time, what do you think -- but more importantly to you I guess, what do you think scientists think about this?

This is one of those things that you should familiarize yourself with before you come to ask questions. If you don't have even a basic understanding or reference, you are being the equivalent of a 5 year old.

 

[Subduction Zone]

So what happened during the Devonian period? Were there mammals or no mammals during that time, what do you think -- but more importantly to you I guess, what do you think scientists think about this?

The Devonian was long before mammals. The first mammals were apparently small critters. All that we have of the first ones are teeth. Small critters do not fossilize well and all that we have for a lot of vertebrates, both in the sea and on land are teeth. Teeth are by far the hardest bones in our bodies. And scientists can tell a lot from teeth.

Earliest known mammal is identified using fossil tooth records

www.nhm.ac.uk

 

[Pogo]

So what happened during the Devonian period? Were there mammals or no mammals during that time, what do you think -- but more importantly to you I guess, what do you think scientists think about this?

This is one of those things that you should familiarize yourself with before you come to ask questions. If you don't have even a basic understanding or reference, you are being the equivalent of a 5 year old.

So what happened during the Devonian period? Were there mammals or no mammals during that time, what do you think -- but more importantly to you I guess, what do you think scientists think about this?

Mammals in Devon.

 

[YoursTrue]

Yes that is our legal system and the jurors swear to make their judgement on the evidence presented without personal bias which eliminates you as an appropriate juror as you have predetermined that no evidence is sufficient to override your prior religious indoctrination.

Science uses pretty much the same system except the jurors are experts in the subject as well and better able to question the evidence.
Theistic scientists put their beliefs in gods aside when judging the physical evidence, asw trial jurors are to put personal thoughts of the litigants aside.

ok, let me put it to you this way -- I worked for lawyers. I know some do lie. I'm not saying scientists lie. But--things happen.
I used to accept the theory of evolution as taught by scientists but I no longer do, not because scientists lie, but because the evidence does not warrant without doubt or question for everyone that the various lifeforms slowly but surely evolved from cellular structures to humans over a long period of time. What the fossils do bring out is that first there were fish and then there were land dwelling animals.

 

[YoursTrue]

This is one of those things that you should familiarize yourself with before you come to ask questions. If you don't have even a basic understanding or reference, you are being the equivalent of a 5 year old.

Mammals in Devon.
View attachment 93075

I do hope @McBell and @John53 are paying attention, perhaps you don't read their posts as assiduously as you do mine. No slight to McBell or John53, I actually respect them.

 

[YoursTrue]

The Devonian was long before mammals. The first mammals were apparently small critters. All that we have of the first ones are teeth. Small critters do not fossilize well and all that we have for a lot of vertebrates, both in the sea and on land are teeth. Teeth are by far the hardest bones in our bodies. And scientists can tell a lot from teeth.

I am sure they can.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I am sure they can.

You should be willing to learn how they do that. You are too likely to make a false claim about others if you react through ignorance and wishful thinking. You are apt to break the Ninth Commandment by doing so. Remember, not realizing that you are wrong is not an excuse when one is talking about the Ninth Commandment.

 

[shunyadragon]

Let's go over this again. Since the position of many scientists is that life evolved from a cellular structure to more complex structures ever so slowly and gradually, eventually going through all the phases of the categories outlined by scientists such as fish, amphibians, apes, etc., that is how their mind set is in regard to the evolution of living forms goes in their minds. Now perhaps we can get back to discussing more about the Devonian period, since it has been said here by some (including you, perhaps?) that there were no mammals during that time period, yet others say there were.

Your intentional ignorance of science is loud and clear with your ridicule sarcasm.

As far as I know the first true mammals synapsids appeared about 225 million years ago. No reputable scientists a far as I know say it happened earlier.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0960982206002454

Early mammals were inauspicious creatures. The first mammal-like forms appear in the fossil record during the late Triassic period, about 225 million years ago (Figure 1). They were small, superficially shrew-like forms, some no longer than a few centimeters. In the shadow of the dinosaurs — a group that coincidentally also made its first appearance in the late Triassic — the early mammals were certainly less than imposing. Throughout the Mesozoic period — for over 160 million years — the largest mammal was no bigger than a ground hog. Moreover, the many wondrous and sometimes bizarre mammals we know today — such as the whales, bats, elephants, and scaly pangolins — were not part of the Mesozoic and early Cenozoic scene. Such elaborations were to mark the later phase of mammalian history, after the non-avian dinosaurs were decimated at the end of the Cretaceous period.

The ancestors of mammals therapsids evolved beginning in the Permian with characteristics of reptiles and mammals.

The lawyers can present evidence and experts, but it is the jury that listens and decides what they accept towards a judgment.

Again this is a thread about science not Law.

 

[John53]

I do hope @McBell and @John53 are paying attention, perhaps you don't read their posts as assiduously as you do mine. No slight to McBell or John53, I actually respect them.

Pay attention to what? That there's Scottish Highland cattle in Devon England?

 

[Pogo]

That is fine, if your religious belief is sufficient that you find the evidence inadequate, at this point there is no point in continuing as obviously no amount will be satisfactory as you are demanding impossibilities, like videos.

 

[Pogo]

I do hope @McBell and @John53 are paying attention, perhaps you don't read their posts as assiduously as you do mine. No slight to McBell or John53, I actually respect them.

And I have lost any respect for you as you are not acting in good faith in my opinion.

 

[Sargonski]

First, may I ask exactly where you are getting the information about El sending the great flood and not Jehovah, also why do you say El is YHWH's father. Thank you. According to what I read, Wikipedia says that there is the possibility that "in much of the Hebrew Bible the name El is an alternative name for Yahweh, but in the Elohist and Priestly traditions it is considered an earlier name than Yahweh." Perhaps we can discuss that for a while on another thread, since this IS a thread about evolution and the complexity of... Thanks again.

El can be related to the invisible hand .. and the question I have been asking .. over .. and over to the atheist unbelievers .. must be at least 10 .. they cry out "I don't believe in Magic" in relation to Godly Powers .. I tell them define what you mean by "God" giving all kinds of possibilities asking if an entity claiming to be God came round .. what would they have to do to prove Godly powers .. Lighting fromt he sky .. what.

and I don't care how they respond .. as long as it is something reasonable .. and other than "God is Everything" fallacy. None has managed a rational definition . to this ridiculously simply question .. least on the surface .. but .. come up with something .. Right !?

Same goes for the Theist .. in particular the fundamentalist literalist ... explaining who their God is .. who is the God of Jesus .. what is the name .. and so forth.

Now .. kind of a back door way .. you have answered YHWH .. which should be an easy answer.. Right ? .. apparently not because theists too will refuse to give a name or identity to their God ..

YHWH- and this is not according to me but universally accepted scholarship at this point .. such that if you had gone to Encyclopedia Brittannica .. instead of beloved wiki .. which is fine but .. limited .. you would read that the God of Abraham is who ? .. You guessed it .. Chief God of the Canaanite Pantheon.

I am here to tell you "why" the above is the case. and why YHWH gets conflated with EL .. in a process called syncretism but later. First is what the Israelite living in 900 BC .. and every people around this person believes about the Flood .. because everyone knows the Flood story ... .know who the characters are ... know who the snake in the Garden is .. know who the "Sons of God" are .. know that YHWH is one of them .. along side our good friend "Ha Satan" who has achieved the position Chief God on earth by the time of Jesus. but this has nothing to do with our Israelite in 900 BC .. or our Babylonian .. or our Hittite .. Phonecian .. or any other person in the cosmopolitan city of Jerusalem at the time.

EL - God Most High - .. has 70 Sons. .. He was Chief God on Earth at one point in time but .. is now Chief God in heaven .. head of the Divine Council in heaven "Psalm 82:1"

1. YHWH stands in[b] the assembly of El;[c] in the midst of the gods[d] he renders judgment.[e]

These sons of Gods are each alloted a people .. a nation Deut 32:8 by EL YHWH's portion Jacob-Israel. .. and they battle to see who gets the title of Chief God on Earth .. Psalm 82 is about YHWH winning that battle .. at which point he assumes some of El's titles and epithets .. as Chief God on earth .. but these are two completely different Gods to the Israelites .. who believe in and worship many gods YHWH worshiped alongside his consort Asherah -Queen of Heaven .. and daughter Anat in an Father - Mother - Daughter Trinity.

and that is their story .. what these folks believe ..

El is not only the one who sends the flood .. according to Ugarit lore - Canaanite Religious beliefs -- ancestor believes of the Hebrews - but is one of the Creator Gods "Like US" "In Our Image" EL and his brother Enki ..

These Gods came down from the sky .. took a primative hominid and created a God-Earthling Hybrid that was called the Adamu.
and now you know how human evolution was influenced tens of thousands of years ago

 

[YoursTrue]

Like I said, you are not the one to be talking about lack of evidence.

Would you say the following is evidence? It certainly does speak of mankind's "evolving" and ruining the earth.

 

[YoursTrue]

El can be related to the invisible hand .. and the question I have been asking .. over .. and over to the atheist unbelievers .. must be at least 10 .. they cry out "I don't believe in Magic" in relation to Godly Powers .. I tell them define what you mean by "God" giving all kinds of possibilities asking if an entity claiming to be God came round .. what would they have to do to prove Godly powers .. Lighting fromt he sky .. what.

and I don't care how they respond .. as long as it is something reasonable .. and other than "God is Everything" fallacy. None has managed a rational definition . to this ridiculously simply question .. least on the surface .. but .. come up with something .. Right !?

Same goes for the Theist .. in particular the fundamentalist literalist ... explaining who their God is .. who is the God of Jesus .. what is the name .. and so forth.

Now .. kind of a back door way .. you have answered YHWH .. which should be an easy answer.. Right ? .. apparently not because theists too will refuse to give a name or identity to their God ..

YHWH- and this is not according to me but universally accepted scholarship at this point .. such that if you had gone to Encyclopedia Brittannica .. instead of beloved wiki .. which is fine but .. limited .. you would read that the God of Abraham is who ? .. You guessed it .. Chief God of the Canaanite Pantheon.

I am here to tell you "why" the above is the case. and why YHWH gets conflated with EL .. in a process called syncretism but later. First is what the Israelite living in 900 BC .. and every people around this person believes about the Flood .. because everyone knows the Flood story ... .know who the characters are ... know who the snake in the Garden is .. know who the "Sons of God" are .. know that YHWH is one of them .. along side our good friend "Ha Satan" who has achieved the position Chief God on earth by the time of Jesus. but this has nothing to do with our Israelite in 900 BC .. or our Babylonian .. or our Hittite .. Phonecian .. or any other person in the cosmopolitan city of Jerusalem at the time.

EL - God Most High - .. has 70 Sons. .. He was Chief God on Earth at one point in time but .. is now Chief God in heaven .. head of the Divine Council in heaven "Psalm 82:1"

1. YHWH stands in[b] the assembly of El;[c] in the midst of the gods[d] he renders judgment.[e]E

These sons of Gods are each alloted a people .. a nation Deut 32:8 by EL YHWH's portion Jacob-Israel. .. and they battle to see who gets the title of Chief God on Earth .. Psalm 82 is about YHWH winning that battle .. at which point he assumes some of El's titles and epithets .. as Chief God on earth .. but these are two completely different Gods to the Israelites .. who believe in and worship many gods YHWH worshiped alongside his consort Asherah -Queen of Heaven .. and daughter Anat in an Father - Mother - Daughter Trinity.

and that is their story .. what these folks believe ..

El is not only the one who sends the flood .. according to Ugarit lore - Canaanite Religious beliefs -- ancestor believes of the Hebrews - but is one of the Creator Gods "Like US" "In Our Image" EL and his brother Enki ..

These Gods came down from the sky .. took a primative hominid and created a God-Earthling Hybrid that was called the Adamu.
and now you know how human evolution was influenced tens of thousands of years ago

The Hebrews did get much of their language from other cultures.

 

[YoursTrue]

And I have lost any respect for you as you are not acting in good faith in my opinion.

As I have said, and I will say it again -- there is simply no detailed information regarding any evolution from organisms evolving to other organisms by the process of "natural selection," or -- selection of the fittest.

 

[YoursTrue]

That is fine, if your religious belief is sufficient that you find the evidence inadequate, at this point there is no point in continuing as obviously no amount will be satisfactory as you are demanding impossibilities, like videos.

Thank you for saying that, as I was considering not responding to you as well. But it's tempting because frankly, nothing you have said really shows that living forms evolved by "survival of the fittest," and//or "natural selection..." But that's ok for now, take care.

 

[YoursTrue]

El can be related to the invisible hand .. and the question I have been asking .. over .. and over to the atheist unbelievI'mers .. must be at least 10 .. they cry out "I don't believe in Magic" in relation to Godly Powers .. I tell them define what you mean by "God" giving all kinds of possibilities asking if an entity claiming to be God came round .. what would they have to do to prove Godly powers .. Lighting fromt he sky .. what.

and I don't care how they respond .. as long as it is something reasonable .. and other than "God is Everything" fallacy. None has managed a rational definition . to this ridiculously simply question .. least on the surface .. but .. come up with something .. Right !?

Same goes for the Theist .. in particular the fundamentalist literalist ... explaining who their God is .. who is the God of Jesus .. what is the name .. and so forth.

Now .. kind of a back door way .. you have answered YHWH .. which should be an easy answer.. Right ? .. apparently not because theists too will refuse to give a name or identity to their God ..

I'm sorry, it's hard for me to follow long posts. Please forgive. So I'm not sure how you are applying your points above. I guess I need simple language or observations. I can imagine what you might mean by saying "El can be related to the invisible hand..." and I'm not disagreeing with that, but can you be a bit more explicit about that? Thank you.

 

[Pogo]

Would you say the following is evidence? It certainly does speak of mankind's "evolving" and ruining the earth.

It is in keeping with your conception in that it is the product of the imagination and aimed at emotions rather than reason.

 

[YoursTrue]

It is in keeping with your conception in that it is the product of the imagination and aimed at emotions rather than reason.

Actually it's not. For instance, of all the beings represented there, from fish to humans, it is only humans that cause devastation to the earth.