How can you justify the sheer complexity that evolution would have to evolve?

[YoursTrue]

How many hundreds of times does this have to be refuted? In fact you refute it yourself. Prove that the frozen carcasses were "deep" within the permafrost? Your inability to support that claim alone refutes your nonsense.

In the past you conflated estimates of how many critters there are in the permafrost with how deep they are in the permafrost.

it doesn't matter deep or not. What really matters is that scientists examining the fossil remains go by the soil. And of course, we know that silt and sediment moves.. Also, what about the Devonian period? Were mammals there or not there during that time period?

 

[Sargonski]

Your explanations provide no answers as to how the megafauna ended up within - sometimes deep within - the Permafrost.
And the “evidence” you claim, is really arguments from shallow-thinkers, such as the “all the vegetation would have rotted” argument. Or this one: “the Ark couldn’t have withstood all those stresses.” Or this gem: “how did the animals get back to their original environments?”

Keep in mind, it was a controlled event was it not?

Did God want to kill all the vegetation? No.
God doesn’t have the ability to protect who or what He wants from a catastrophe?
Of course He can.
If as the account implies God brought the animals to Noah, would He have the ability to take them back? Of course.

Genesis specifically states that Jehovah God Himself caused the waters above to ’pour down’ (Genesis 6:12), and the waters below to “burst forth.” - Genesis 6:11
Are we to assume then that Jehovah God did nothing else?

But we do have evidence that resulted from the Flood. It can be found here:

Flood Evidences — revised

Global Flood evidence: ***1.Vast herds of grazing animals, perhaps millions of them, discovered within the permafrost (called muck fields by some, due to the mud mixed in from previous melting), in the Alaskan and Yukon regions. In the Siberian permafrost, a few have been discovered upright...

www.religiousforums.com

Best wishes.

Well .. I must say kudos for putting thought into response.. despite my disagreement with your position.

First - it is not YHWH that sends the great flood.. it is "EL" (Enlil in Ur) .. YHWH's Father .. according to the Biblical Account. The Flood did not happen in the Biblical Timeline ~2100-2300BC .. 300 years prior to the Greatest Patriarch Abraham .. .. but around 5000 BC .. and it did not cover the entire Earth .. but the known world .. To the Family who managed to escape on a boat .. it was the entire world .. and everything was gone .. wiped out.

heed not the snake charmers .. nor the sleight of hand .. but to mind put thought --- We have the history of Mesopotamia throughout this tie period ... there was no interuption. .. .. all cities wiped out .. then when re-occupied hundreds or thousands of years later .. have a different language .. culture .. genetics (DNA) , Art - Pottery, Writing .. as would have to be the case were there a global flood .. and not just to the city states in Sumer .. but in China, Egypt, Europe, South America .. and so on .

But that is not what happened .. as around 2350 BC .. Sargon of Akkad unites the city states of Mesopotamia into the worlds first Empire .. Sargons early years .. strikingly similar to Moses -- put into a river in a basket .. fished out -rescued -- adopted by a God -- Goes on to be the leader of a Great nation... and the most recognizable heros of Old. Everyone knew the story of Sargon .. and the flood story of Genesis at this time .. and for every century after .. The Akkadian Empire lasts for 200 years .. after which there is civil unrest .. the empire ends up splitting into the Babylonians and Assyrians .. clearly distinguishable by 2000 BC ..

Sorry .. there is no flood that wipes everyone out during this time period .. .. we have continuous culture and history through this entire period .. in addition to having the same in numerous other parts of the world .. and this simply can not exist if a flood came and wiped everything out .. in 2150 BC .. in Australia .. and in 2100 BC .. the same culture - DNA - Art - Pottery as was prior to 2150 BC exists and carries on. .. NO .. Impossible .. the only way to reconcile this fact is 1) Magic - Satan did it .. came and rearranged everything to make it look like the Flood never happened .. or 2) the dating of the flood is incorrect

2) is the correct answer .. and for this for sure the explanation is that "The Devil did it" . 99.9999999% for sure we know that this error is from the hand of man .. along the many other similar errors we find in the various biblical texts .. written by many authors .. over many centuries .. redacted and rewritten .. .. some of which is inspired .. much which is not . nore ever intended or claimed to be by the author .. ..a summary of History from the State Cleric .. Songs sung in the Temples of YHWH over the many centuries .. and prayers.

This simple error by later redactors of the oldest story in post flood history - passed down .. down down over many many generations by Oral tradiction then later written .. is nothing to fret over .. needs not detract from one's Faith Brother HC.

 

[YoursTrue]

So you agree there is evidence for evolution in the fossil record?

There is a difference between lying and misinterpreting.

 

[YoursTrue]

but it is the lawyers that win or lose the trials, not the sciences.

the medical examiners and forensic are only there for short durations of the trials, as expert witnesses. They can only answer questions, they cannot argue with the lawyers when being cross-examined.

Plus, the ME & forensic scientists can gather and examine evidence, ONlY. And only pass those information to the homicide law enforcement, so the ME & forensic scientists are not the ones making the arrests, or they are not ones who decide who should be arrested or charged.

it isn’t like in the TV series or movies, where they can more proactive approaches, in fighting crimes.

The lawyers can present evidence and experts, but it is the jury that listens and decides what they accept towards a judgment.

 

[YoursTrue]

Well .. I must say kudos for putting thought into response.. despite my disagreement with your position.

First - it is not YHWH that sends the great flood.. it is "EL" (Enlil in Ur) .. YHWH's Father .. according to the Biblical Account. .

First, may I ask exactly where you are getting the information about El sending the great flood and not Jehovah, also why do you say El is YHWH's father. Thank you. According to what I read, Wikipedia says that there is the possibility that "in much of the Hebrew Bible the name El is an alternative name for Yahweh, but in the Elohist and Priestly traditions it is considered an earlier name than Yahweh." Perhaps we can discuss that for a while on another thread, since this IS a thread about evolution and the complexity of... Thanks again.

 

[Kenny]

Providing the Biblical description would simple be on the extreme mythical consideration of Biblical Creation.

Can you support your statement with evidence?

 

[YoursTrue]

Like I said, you are not the one to be talking about lack of evidence.

How do you feel about the fact that some here claim there are no fossils of mammals during the Devonian period? I believe the posters are McBell and John53.

 

[YoursTrue]

Yes you. You're the one saying fossils aren't evidence therefore putting yourself forward as an expert. I'm just a dumb Aussie who thought there have been no mammal fossils found from that time period because they hadn't evolved yet. Set me straight.



I think you'll find courts were around a long time before cameras. And what a shock, humans get things wrong sometimes. The relevant point for me is if they own up to the mistake and not try to cover it up.

Here -- to me it is a sad thing when someone is convicted "based on the evidence," and they were wrongfully convicted, perhaps even put to death...no matter when it happened.

 

[shunyadragon]

Can you support your statement with evidence?

The evidence is clear and specific concerning the history of the text The Pentateuch was compiled after 600 BCE form earlier, Phoenician/Canaanite/Ugarit, Babylonian and Sumerian texts, The mythology reflects the evolved mythology of the writings of the more ancient cultures. The Canaanite/Ugarit cuneiform libraries found in Northern Canaan and older Babylonian and Sumerian sources represent the source of much of the foundation of the Pentateuch.

There is no known independent texts, even scrapes of Hebrew text of the Pentateuch before 600 BCE

Composition of the Torah - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The composition of the Torah (or Pentateuch, the first five books of the Bible— Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy) was a process that involved multiple authors over an extended period of time.[1] While Jewish tradition holds that all five books were originally written by Moses sometime in the 2nd millennium BCE, leading scholars have rejected Mosaic authorship since the 17th century.[2]

The precise process by which the Torah was composed, the number of authors involved, and the date of each author remain hotly contested among scholars.[3] Some scholars, such as Rolf Rendtorff, espouse a fragmentary hypothesis, in which the Pentateuch is seen as a compilation of short, independent narratives, which were gradually brought together into larger units in two editorial phases: the Deuteronomic and the Priestly phases.[4][5][6] By contrast, scholars such as John Van Seters advocate a supplementary hypothesis, which posits that the Torah is the result of two major additions—Yahwist and Priestly—to an existing corpus of work.[7] Other scholars, such as Richard Elliott Friedman or Joel S. Baden, support a revised version of the documentary hypothesis, holding that the Torah was composed by using four different sources—Yahwist, Elohist, Priestly and Deuteronomist—that were combined into one in the Persian period.[8][9][10]

Scholars frequently use these newer hypotheses in combination with each other, making it difficult to classify contemporary theories as strictly one or another.[11] The general trend in recent scholarship is to recognize the final form of the Torah as a literary and ideological unity, based on earlier sources, was likely completed during the Persian period (539-333 BCE).[12][13][14]

Date of composition​

Classical source criticism seeks to determine the date of a text by establishing an upper limit (terminus ante quem) and a lower limit (terminus post quem) on the basis of external attestation of the text's existence, as well as the internal features of the text itself.[15] On the basis of a variety of arguments, modern scholars generally see the completed Torah as a product of the time of the Persian Achaemenid Empire (probably 450–350 BCE),[12][13] although some would place its composition in the Hellenistic period (333–164 BCE).[16]

External evidence​

The absence of archaeological evidence for the Exodus narrative, and the evidence pointing to anachronisms in the patriarchal narratives of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob,[17] have convinced the vast majority of scholars that the Torah does not give an accurate account of the origins of Israel.[18][19] This implies that the Torah could not have been written by Moses during the second millennium BCE, as Jewish tradition teaches.

Manuscripts and non-biblical references​

Concrete archaeological evidence bearing on the dating of the Torah is found in early manuscript fragments, such as those found among the Dead Sea Scrolls. The earliest extant manuscript fragments of the Pentateuch date to the late third or early second centuries BCE.[20][21] In addition, early non-biblical sources, such as the Letter of Aristeas, indicate that the Torah was first translated into Greek in Alexandria under the reign of Ptolemy II Philadelphus (285–247 BCE). These lines of evidence indicate that the Torah must have been composed in its final form no later than c. 250 BCE, before its translation into Greek.[22][23]

There is one external reference to the Torah which, depending on its attribution, may push the terminus ante quem for the composition of the Torah down to about 315 BCE. In Book 40 of Diodorus Siculus's Library, an ancient encyclopedia compiled from a variety of quotations from older documents, there is a passage that refers to a written Jewish law passed down from Moses.[24] Scholars have traditionally attributed the passage to the late 4th-century Greek historian Hecataeus of Abdera, which, if correct, would imply that the Torah must have been composed in some form before 315 BCE. However, the attribution of this passage to Hecataeus has been challenged recently. Russell Gmirkin has argued that the passage is in fact a quote from Theophanes of Mytilene, a first-century BCE Roman biographer cited earlier in Book 40, who in turn used Hecataeus along with other sources

 

[shunyadragon]

Here -- to me it is a sad thing when someone is convicted "based on the evidence," and they were wrongfully convicted, perhaps even put to death...no matter when it happened.

It is a very sad thing you choose to cover up ancient errors based a stoic ancient agenda without science.

 

[shunyadragon]

Your explanations provide no answers as to how the megafauna ended up within - sometimes deep within - the Permafrost.
And the “evidence” you claim, is really arguments from shallow-thinkers, such as the “all the vegetation would have rotted” argument. Or this one: “the Ark couldn’t have withstood all those stresses.” Or this gem: “how did the animals get back to their original environments?”

Keep in mind, it was a controlled event was it not?

Did God want to kill all the vegetation? No.
God doesn’t have the ability to protect who or what He wants from a catastrophe?
Of course He can.
If as the account implies God brought the animals to Noah, would He have the ability to take them back? Of course.

Genesis specifically states that Jehovah God Himself caused the waters above to ’pour down’ (Genesis 6:12), and the waters below to “burst forth.” - Genesis 6:11
Are we to assume then that Jehovah God did nothing else?

But we do have evidence that resulted from the Flood. It can be found here:

Flood Evidences — revised

Global Flood evidence: ***1.Vast herds of grazing animals, perhaps millions of them, discovered within the permafrost (called muck fields by some, due to the mud mixed in from previous melting), in the Alaskan and Yukon regions. In the Siberian permafrost, a few have been discovered upright...

www.religiousforums.com

Best wishes.

More phony sources based on the intentional ignorance of science.

 

[YoursTrue]

It is a very sad thing you choose to cover up ancient errors based a stoic ancient agenda without science.

So do you agree that it is a sad thing when juries choose a guilty verdict based on evidence and they wrongfully convict a man of a crime he did not commit? Maybe even put them to death?

 

[shunyadragon]

So do you agree that it is a sad thing when juries choose a guilty verdict based on evidence and they wrongfully convict a man of a crime he did not commit? Maybe even put them to death?

OFF TOPIC. Dialogue on the issues of sciences of evolution has absolutely nothing to do with legal questions of Law, though there are similarities on the questions as to what would be considered as evidence.

The sad thing is your intentional ignorance of science.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

The ”water above” as in, there are water above the “dome” or “firmament”, as claimed in the Genesis 1:7?



From that context, the whole “sky” in 1:8, is under this dome, hence there are water above the sky.

Then on day 4, it stated in the following verses:



That means that God created the Sun, Moon and stars in “the dome of the sky”. Which would means there are water BEYOND THE SUN, MOON & STARS!

Do you really not see these 2 quoted passages, are not just logically incorrect, it is also factually incorrect as in NOT BASED IN NATURAL REALITY????!!!!

If you seriously believed in Genesis 7:11 (you have mis-cited the verse from the wrong chapter - 6:11), came from ”above the dome”, then you would have to believe that the rain water came from BEYOND the observable stars.

No matter you read Genesis Creation and Flood, the author is wrong, and don’t know what he was talking about, and you being the science-illiterate that you are, you didn’t even notice the author’s errors. You just took the author’s words without thinking.

The account was in Hebrew! If you think raqia means a solid dome, then you are the illiterate one.

Learn the difference between the Hebrew words “ohr” & “ma•ohr” and how they apply to the text.
Then you can speak with intelligence, and not resort to ad Homs.

 

[YoursTrue]

@shunyadragon That "leading scholars" reject the idea that Moses wrote the Pentateuch does not mean these so-called leading scholars are correct. Their ideas, frankly speaking, almost sound like the "leading scholars" of evolution, and also apparently "non-leading scholars" who claim that there were no mammals during the "Devonian" period. Now we do know that animal skins (upon which Moses undoubtedly wrote) were easily perishable and had to be copied. And yes, these scrolls were transported with the Jews and given great respect for the most part. So, of course, this thread is about evolution and the complexity thereof. Now do you agree that there were no mammals during the Devonian period? I mean it would be nice if you would answer that little question, please, since you claim to be an expert following, I suppose, experts. What do you say?

 

[YoursTrue]

OFF TOPIC. Dialogue on the issues of sciences of evolution has absolutely nothing to do with legal questions of Law, though there are similarities on the questions as to what would be considered as evidence.

The sad thing is your intentional ignorance of science.

Sorry but it's not "off topic" like you claim. It is exactly on-topic because of the claim of evidence that you accept. So back to evolution and evidence. Why do you think some say there were no mammals during the Devonian period? Any idea or answer you can give, except that I need an education and am ignorant?

 

[YoursTrue]

OFF TOPIC. Dialogue on the issues of sciences of evolution has absolutely nothing to do with legal questions of Law, though there are similarities on the questions as to what would be considered as evidence.

The sad thing is your intentional ignorance of science.

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but I think you have tunnel vision. I am speaking of the conclusion about what the evidence shows. So what evidence or lack of it shows there are/were no mammals during the Devonian period?

 

[Hockeycowboy]

First - it is not YHWH that sends the great flood.. it is "EL" (Enlil in Ur) .. YHWH's Father .. according to the Biblical Account.

If you’re going to claim “according to the Biblical account”, then what should you do? Give me the Biblical account that says “YHWH’s Father”. There aren’t any.

(YHWH is the Creator / Father of all. That’s who Jesus worshipped.)

Making statements like that, without references, brings into question all of your other statements without references.


Regarding human lineages & civilizations, people have made it up. Everyone wants to “have the oldest”; that makes them sound prestigious.

And regarding isotope dating techniques….
Something else to keep in mind is the water canopy existing for eons as described in Genesis would have greatly reduced the Sun’s radiation hitting the Earth, thereby effecting radioactive decay. And throwing accepted dates way off from the actual.

But most everyone wants to ignore that.

 

[Kenny]

The evidence is clear and specific concerning the history of the text The Pentateuch was compiled after 600 BCE form earlier, Phoenician/Canaanite/Ugarit, Babylonian and Sumerian texts, The mythology reflects the evolved mythology of the writings of the more ancient cultures. The Canaanite/Ugarit cuneiform libraries found in Northern Canaan and older Babylonian and Sumerian sources represent the source of much of the foundation of the Pentateuch.

I see opinions here and personal viewpoints. Not saying you can’t have them.

There is no known independent texts, even scrapes of Hebrew text of the Pentateuch before 600 BCE

Composition of the Torah - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Yes… texts do deteriorate and then there are wars, burning of manuscripts too. But as we all know, absence of older transcripts doesn’t translate that they didn’t exist.

ff I were to look at the scriptures of
Exodus 17:14
And the Lord said unto Moses, Write this for a memorial in a book, and rehearse it in the ears of Joshua: for I will utterly put out the remembrance of Amalek from under heaven.

Moses lived somewhere between 1391–1271 BC - so I can assume that is when things began to be recorded.

The composition of the Torah (or Pentateuch, the first five books of the Bible— Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy) was a process that involved multiple authors over an extended period of time.[1] While Jewish tradition holds that all five books were originally written by Moses sometime in the 2nd millennium BCE, leading scholars have rejected Mosaic authorship since the 17th century.[2]

I see opinions here

The precise process by which the Torah was composed, the number of authors involved, and the date of each author remain hotly contested among scholars.[3]

Notice that nobody really can be sure

Some scholars, such as Rolf Rendtorff, espouse a fragmentary hypothesis, in which the Pentateuch is seen as a compilation of short, independent narratives, which … ..., holding that the Torah was composed by using four different sources—Yahwist, Elohist, Priestly and Deuteronomist—that were combined into one in the Persian period.[8][9][10]

Again… notice all the opinions

Scholars frequently use these newer hypotheses in combination with each other, making it difficult to classify contemporary theories as strictly one or another.[11] The general trend in recent scholarship is to recognize the final form of the Torah as a literary and ideological unity, based on earlier sources, was likely completed during the Persian period (539-333 BCE).[12][13][14]

Date of composition​

Classical source criticism seeks to determine the date of a text by establishing an upper limit (terminus ante quem) and a lower limit (terminus post quem) on the basis of external attestation of the text's existence, as well as the internal features of the text itself.[15] On the basis of a variety of arguments, modern scholars generally see the completed Torah as a product of the time of the Persian Achaemenid Empire (probably 450–350 BCE),[12][13] although some would place its composition in the Hellenistic period (333–164 BCE).[16]

Again… notice the opinions

External evidence​

The absence of archaeological evidence for the Exodus narrative, and the evidence pointing to anachronisms in the patriarchal narratives of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob,[17] have convinced the vast majority of scholars that the Torah does not give an accurate account of the origins of Israel.[18][19] This implies that the Torah could not have been written by Moses during the second millennium BCE, as Jewish tradition teaches.

Absence of archaeological evidence does not mean it didn’t happen

Manuscripts and non-biblical references​

Concrete archaeological evidence bearing on the dating of the Torah is found in early manuscript fragments, such as those found among the Dead Sea Scrolls. The earliest extant manuscript fragments of the Pentateuch date to the late third or early second centuries BCE.[20][21] In addition, early non-biblical sources, such as the Letter of Aristeas, indicate that the Torah was first translated into Greek in Alexandria under the reign of Ptolemy II Philadelphus (285–247 BCE). These lines of evidence indicate that the Torah must have been composed in its final form no later than c. 250 BCE, before its translation into Greek.[22][23]

No… all it does is dictate when those particular findings were created.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Composition_of_the_Torah#cite_note-FOOTNOTEGmirkin2006250ff-23

There is one external reference to the Torah which, depending on its attribution, may push the terminus ante quem for the composition of the Torah down to about … ...a first-century BCE Roman biographer cited earlier in Book 40, who in turn used Hecataeus along with other sources

So, basically, you have a viewpoint. I simply view the statement of
Exodus 17:14
And the Lord said unto Moses, Write this for a memorial in a book, and rehearse it in the ears of Joshua: for I will utterly put out the remembrance of Amalek from under heaven.

as historical and have no reason to believe it was a myth. But you can if you want.

 

[shunyadragon]

I see opinions here and personal viewpoints. Not saying you can’t have them.


Yes… texts do deteriorate and then there are wars, burning of manuscripts too. But as we all know, absence of older transcripts doesn’t translate that they didn’t exist.

ff I were to look at the scriptures of
Exodus 17:14
And the Lord said unto Moses, Write this for a memorial in a book, and rehearse it in the ears of Joshua: for I will utterly put out the remembrance of Amalek from under heaven.

Moses lived somewhere between 1391–1271 BC - so I can assume that is when things began to be recorded.



I see opinions here


Notice that nobody really can be sure



Again… notice all the opinions


Again… notice the opinions


Absence of archaeological evidence does not mean it didn’t happen;.

Maybe is not evidence, but one cannot claim something happened or it was written with absolutely no evidence it happened or was written,

s usual you are "arguing from ignorance fallacy" without any academic references.

The long history of writing on stone and cuneiform tablets and papyrus exist in all the cultures around the Hebrews, but no Hebrew writing records before 600 BCE. This academically accepted documented history of writing in the Middle East.

No… all it does is dictate when those particular findings were created.
Composition of the Torah - Wikipedia


So, basically, you have a viewpoint. I simply view the statement of
Exodus 17:14
And the Lord said unto Moses, Write this for a memorial in a book, and rehearse it in the ears of Joshua: for I will utterly put out the remembrance of Amalek from under heaven.

as historical and have no reason to believe it was a myth. But you can if you want.

The Bible or the Pentateuch cannot justify itself without independent sources and evidence. This is a factual view of the ancient history of all religions and cultures, I cite accdmeic references. You quibble anDuck, Bob and Weasal without any independent supporting evidence.