How can you justify the sheer complexity that evolution would have to evolve?

[Sargonski]

The Hebrews did get much of their language from other cultures.

Hebrew is a Canaanite dialect -- the Hebrews a Canaanite Culture .. with Canaanite Religious beliefs. Only after the Death of YHWH and the birth of Judaism do these beliefs change. .. and by change I mean "Monotheism" .. so you can not read the Old Testiment through the eyes of monotheism .. that is simply not what was happening .. not what anyone believed .. from Abraham down to Moses .. to the end of Israel in 720 .. and the end of Judah when Babylon came and destroyed the Place wheire his name resides.

When you read in the Bible "Sons of God" .. it means Sons of God .. as everyone believed and were very familar with the Sons of God .. each being a patron God of a City State that you will go to war with .. YHWH loses a few battles .. prior to winning the crown .. as recorded both in the Bible and by the other side of the Battle on the Moabite Stone .. Chemosh was the son in question who was too strong for YHWH in this battle.

 

[Sargonski]

I'm sorry, it's hard for me to follow long posts. Please forgive. So I'm not sure how you are applying your points above. I guess I need simple language or observations. I can imagine what you might mean by saying "El can be related to the invisible hand..." and I'm not disagreeing with that, but can you be a bit more explicit about that? Thank you.

While EL is not the Creator of the Universe .. he is the Creator of Humans .. the process by which humans are created .. the mixture of a "Neanderthal" and the Gods who come down from the Sky .. a hybrid .. originally for working the mines. These beings are called "Adamu" .

These Adamu multiply like crazy .. the Sky Gods find the women attractive and take some as wives .. the offspring the hero's of the Stories of Old .. Greek Myths .. Odysseus ..

Clear interference in the Evolution of humans .. Do you know how much Neanderthal DNA you have ? Lots . and the more the merrier .. as the less prone to being sick . better adapted that half to what ever earth has to throw at it.

 

[YoursTrue]

While EL is not the Creator of the Universe .. he is the Creator of Humans .. the process by which humans are created .. the mixture of a "Neanderthal" and the Gods who come down from the Sky .. a hybrid .. originally for working the mines. These beings are called "Adamu" .

These Adamu multiply like crazy .. the Sky Gods find the women attractive and take some as wives .. the offspring the hero's of the Stories of Old .. Greek Myths .. Odysseus ..

Clear interference in the Evolution of humans .. Do you know how much Neanderthal DNA you have ? Lots . and the more the merrier .. as the less prone to being sick . better adapted that half to what ever earth has to throw at it.

I have now one question for you because otherwise there is too much to discuss -- 1) where are you getting this information from about El not being the Creator of the Universe but rather you say he is the creator of humans.

 

[Kenny]

Maybe is not evidence, but one cannot claim something happened or it was written with absolutely no evidence it happened or was written,

And yet we have written books that talk about it

s usual you are "arguing from ignorance fallacy" without any academic references.

no… what we have are academic opinions. Do you remember when academia said that there was no King David?

The long history of writing on stone and cuneiform tablets and papyrus exist in all the cultures around the Hebrews, but no Hebrew writing records before 600 BCE. This academically accepted documented history of writing in the Middle East.

Remember Carl Segan:

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence​

The Bible or the Pentateuch cannot justify itself without independent sources and evidence. This is a factual view of the ancient history of all religions and cultures, I cite accdmeic references. You quibble anDuck, Bob and Weasal without any independent supporting evidence.

But it isn’t just the Pentateuch - it’s the book of Joshua and many other books.

 

[Kenny]

Kenny, you are such a kind person in your responses!

I wish I knew you.

Here’s an item you might like…

Ketef Hinnom scrolls - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

So the obvious conclusion is, if these scrolls are that old, and they are copies…
What does that say about the original manuscript that these scrolls are quoting from?

WOW! WOW! WOW!

LOL… I also believe that when Jesus comes back He will confirm it all!

 

[Sargonski]

If you’re going to claim “according to the Biblical account”, then what should you do? Give me the Biblical account that says “YHWH’s Father”. There aren’t any.

(YHWH is the Creator / Father of all. That’s who Jesus worshipped.)

Making statements like that, without references, brings into question all of your other statements without references.


Regarding human lineages & civilizations, people have made it up. Everyone wants to “have the oldest”; that makes them sound prestigious.

And regarding isotope dating techniques….
Something else to keep in mind is the water canopy existing for eons as described in Genesis would have greatly reduced the Sun’s radiation hitting the Earth, thereby effecting radioactive decay. And throwing accepted dates way off from the actual.

But most everyone wants to ignore that.

Look friend .. .. Encyclopedia Brittanica -- "Abraham" - Abraham | Facts & Significance

The God of Abraham is EL .. according to these folks - Modern theological scholarship .. don't shoot the messenger.

According to Deuteronomy 32:8 El -- Chief God . divides up the Nations of the Earth among his Sons


When God Supreme gave the nations their inheritance, when he divided humankind;
he set the bounds of the peoples according to the number of the children of El,
and YHWH's portion was his people Jacob, the lot of his inheritance.

 

[shunyadragon]

And yet we have written books that talk about it

So what?!?!?!? There are millions of books that talk about a multitude of things tht are not necessarily true, We have many written books about Buddhism, Hinduism, and all the religions of the world So what?!?!?!

no… what we have are academic opinions. Do you remember when academia said that there was no King David?

False, academics do not necessarily believe King David did not exist, There are some skeptics, but the dominant view of academics except we have at least one written reference to King David.

Now there is a most definite problem with the existence of Noah and whether the World Flood was real.

Remember Carl Segan:

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence​

True, but the problem remains, but arguing from ignorance fallacy does not save you.

one cannot claim something happened or it was written with absolutely no evidence it happened or was written,

Nonetheless Carl Segan would not claim something that is factual unless he has evidence to support it,

But it isn’t just the Pentateuch - it’s the book of Joshua and many other books.

They are part of the Pentateuch compiled after 600 BCE.

There is not one scrap of Hebrew text before 800-600 BCE. ALL the other cultures have their writing carved in stone, clay tablets, and papyrus that survived thousands of years, It is well documented that Hebrew evolved from Canaanite/Phoenician/Ugarit written language very late.
Carving in stone will persist thousands of years. We have none from the Hebrews, We only have references to Hebrews in the record of the Egyptians, Canaanites, and other cultures around the Hebrews.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

@Kenny, @YoursTrue, @URAVIP2ME, @walt, you all should like this!

A new, young archaeologist is starting out well!

I bet he’ll have a problem getting funding.

 

[shunyadragon]

@Kenny, @YoursTrue, @URAVIP2ME, @walt, you all should like this!

A new, young archaeologist is starting out well!

I bet he’ll have a problem getting funding.

Maybe Mad magazine will fund you.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

I am accusing you of…. citing phony misleading and dishonest sources concerning the history of life and the earth billions of years old.

What?! You don’t believe the earth could be billions of years old?

Because I do! I’ve stated that many, many, many, many, many times, and some of those times have been talking with you! Even a few posts ago. Where have you been? You’ve been railing against my position, and don’t even know what it is.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Maybe Mad magazine will fund you.

This Dr. Kennedy guy is not me… but I plan on watching his career and his discoveries closely.

What he’s found already, is impressive.

 

[McBell]

Maybe Mad magazine will fund you.

I do not know who is funding @Hockeycowboy but the current equivalent of Mad Magazine, The Discovery Institute, helps fund Dr. Titus Kennedy

 

[Subduction Zone]

As I have said, and I will say it again -- there is simply no detailed information regarding any evolution from organisms evolving to other organisms by the process of "natural selection," or -- selection of the fittest.

There is, but you insist on keeping yourself ignorant. No one can force you to learn.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

I do not know who is funding @Hockeycowboy but the current equivalent of Mad Magazine, The Discovery Institute, helps fund Dr. Titus Kennedy

They fund him? Are you sure, can you post a source?
The link under his name that you posted - thanks, btw - from the Discovery Institute, doesn’t say they fund him… although he is Research fellow there.

He’s also a professor at Biola Univ. apparently.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

You jumped into a conversation .. the subject of which was a claim made by an Atheist .. in addressing the subject of God ~ Godly powers .. stating a disbelief in Magic.

Again, to state a disbelief in X, is not a claim. It's a response to a claim about X.

Claim: "X is the case".
Response: "I don't believe that".

and so I asked how they are defining God .. more specifically "Godly powers" .. "Magic"
You come along and say ?? "When I talk about Gods I am not making any claims about them" ????? other than the claim they do not exist.

Quote me where I supposedly made the claim that gods don't exist. You can't, because I didn't.
I can only repeat myself: when I talk about gods and my disbeliefs about gods, I am responding to people who make claims about gods.

Someone first needs to claim a god exists before I can not believe that claim.

Ahhhhhh Euuuuuurrrrreeeeeeka !!! s Right ! now you understand the Logic Basic 100 ? ey ! heh heh ..

I do. It sounds like you're the one who's having problems with "logic basics"

"Except to respond to claims about God" -- Yes ... !! Exactly .. Exactly what I am doing .. responding to a claim about God .. that such Godly Powers do not exist.

First, I don't remember anybody making that claim here.
Second, even so: someone would first have to claim "godly powers" DO exist, before someone would deny that and make the opposite claim.

Again: do you have a habit of simply claiming "X doesn't exist" completely out of the blue without anyone first claim X DOES exist and defining what X actually is?
I say you don't.

The expression of disbelief, or even the expression of claiming non-existence of a thing, is always reactionary. A response to a claim or at best a counter-claim.
But never a claim by itself in a vacuum.

and so have to ask .. exactly what are we claiming to be Godly Powers .. "Magic" .. as in what would it take for some entity "HeyZeus" for example ... to sit down beside you and convince you that they have a divine spark within them .. little piece of the All spark ...

That's up to you to define, since you are the one who claims it exists.
If you don't define any particulars, then I will just assume the definitions others have given it. And those are very much definitions of the classic supernatural / magic.

Now .. you wish to talk about some other claims about God .. and you respond in disbelief of that God ... do you not need to know what is being asserted about that God .. for you to have something yot disbelieve ? ..

Yes. Unless the claim is defined, there is nothing there to disbelieve.
And if you don't bother given particular definitions, I will assume classical theistic gods. The gods that answer prayers, care about what you do while naked behind closed doors, who raise the dead, who turn water into wine, who creates living things from clay and / or dust, etc.

Now .. while I am enthralled with these other conversations making various claims about God -- in this conversation .. it is your definition of God that is under discussion

I don't have a "personal" definition. God believers have definitions. I assume their definitions. And when they don't provide them for some reason, I assume the classical definitions (also coming from theistic religions).

I have no yet come across any definition for a god that defines such entity in such a way where it sounds even remotely plausible to me that it actually exists.
I have heard LOTS which are self-contradicting and / or which require the assumption of magic etc.
I have heard some which are so vague and unfalsifiable that they don't actually mean anything and / or are indistinguishable from non-existent things.

That's not my problem. It's believers that provide these definition.

.. should you take the position of the Atheist .. and tell us what it would this entity have to do to convince you of Godly powers .. the bare minimum .. let us not get into the God of Everything Existentialist fallacy. and then answer the same question being a paleolithinc farmer in 4000 BC .. what they might look to as "Godly powers" .

I wouldn't know. But I'm quite positive that if an all powerful, all knowing being actually exists, that entity would know EXACTLY what would convince me.

 

[McBell]

They fund him? Are you sure, can you post a source?
The link under his name that you posted - thanks, btw - from the Discovery Institute, doesn’t say they fund him… although he is Research fellow there.

He’s also a professor at Biola Univ. apparently.

He is currently the Discovery Institutes leading front man...

 

[Kenny]

So what?!?!?!? There are millions of books that talk about a multitude of things tht are not necessarily true, We have many written books about Buddhism, Hinduism, and all the religions of the world So what?!?!?!

I know you don’t believe those historical books and that’s OK mate. But you really haven’t given me any proof that they are wrong.

False, academics do not necessarily believe King David did not exist, There are some skeptics, but the dominant view of academics except we have at least one written reference to King David.

Maybe you aren’t as old as I am… but there was a time when academia believed he didn’t exist. When they found that he did unbelievers, like unto you, said his kingdom wasn’t as big as the books said. However, archaeology continues to find new evidence to support it.

When it said, “write this down and rehearse it in the ears of Joshua” - they really did write it down.

But you don’t have to believe it. You don’t have to believe that Jesus died for the sins of humanity either. As my signature says, there are many religions that believe differently and that is perfectly OK. I call it “free will"

Now there is a most definite problem with the existence of Noah and whether the World Flood was real.

Yes, we have our standby stories that we use when we realize we were barking up the wrong tree. I use to use them too but I found that we simply don’t have enough information. I find it interesting that multiplicity of religions all have the same general story. Why do you think that they do?

True, but the problem remains, but arguing from ignorance fallacy does not save you.

Yes… we all love to pull out our “fallacy defense”. I would question who is actually using it.

one cannot claim something happened or it was written with absolutely no evidence it happened or was written,

Nonetheless Carl Segan would not claim something that is factual unless he has evidence to support it,

But we do have evidence… Books written by different people all agree. The problem lies in that you don’t believe that the books are correct.

1 Samuel 12:8
When Jacob was come into Egypt, and your fathers cried unto the Lord, then the Lordsent Moses and Aaron, which brought forth your fathers out of Egypt, and made them dwell in this place.

1 Kings 8:53
For thou didst separate them from among all the people of the earth, to be thine inheritance, as thou spakest by the hand of Moses thy servant, when thou broughtest our fathers out of Egypt, O Lord God.

1 Chronicles 17:21
And what one nation in the earth is like thy people Israel, whom God went to redeem to be his own people, to make thee a name of greatness and terribleness, by driving out nations from before thy people whom thou hast redeemed out of Egypt?

Just to name a few. All written down for your and my benefit. All written not too long after it happened as far as time is concerned

They are part of the Pentateuch compiled after 600 BCE.

Hmmm… opinion.

There is not one scrap of Hebrew text before 800-600 BCE. ALL the other cultures have their writing carved in stone, clay tablets, and papyrus that survived thousands of years, It is well documented that Hebrew evolved from Canaanite/Phoenician/Ugarit written language very late.
Carving in stone will persist thousands of years. We have none from the Hebrews, We only have references to Hebrews in the record of the Egyptians, Canaanites, and other cultures around the Hebrews.

Opinion.

BUT

Let me remind you that I really don’t have a problem with your unbelief.

Maybe you believe in the words of Mīrzā Ḥosayn ʿAlī Nūrī just because he said what he said. I’m sure you have no problem with my unbelief in what he said. He also wrote things down and we choose what to believe and what not.

 

[Kenny]

There is, but you insist on keeping yourself ignorant. No one can force you to learn.

wow! wow! wow! I guess the best defense is a strong offense. @YoursTrue On behalf of the male side of mankind, please forgive us for not honoring you.

 

[Pogo]

wow! wow! wow! I guess the best defense is a strong offense. @YoursTrue On behalf of the male side of mankind, please forgive us for not honoring you.

Playing Pigeon Chess as @YoursTrue is doing is not honorable.

 

[Kenny]

Playing Pigeon Chess as @YoursTrue is doing is not honorable.

Like they say, If you can’t attack the message, attack the messenger