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How did Satan get to the garden of Eden?

fallingblood

Agnostic Theist
both J and E are collections, if you argue this. you dont have a ounce of credibility.
I am in the middle of writing an article on just this subject, but I did want to address this. Who are you to say I have no credibility? What degrees do you have, what research have you actually done besides Google and Wiki? Really, what sort of authority do you have on this subject?

Really, I see this as nothing more than a veiled attack, in order to dodge the actual issue. You act as if you are an expert on this subject, yet the sources you provide don't even support what you are saying.

And now I'm going to ask you again to actually address the subject here. So again, I pose these questions. What does the serpent represent? Why did they choose a serpent? Why did they make the serpent speak? Really, what does the myth actually mean?
 

outhouse

Atheistically
You missed the date of composition of the garden story by 450 years, thats not a small mistake.



Like i said

and this goes for anyone



both J and E are collections, if you argue this. you dont have a ounce of credibility.



the difference between you and me is I gladly concede if i make a mistake, in over a year I have yet to see you admit one single of many. Your ego wont let you, as you want to act like some kind of authority. While you do have much to offer, and i wish I had your knowledge on some subjects. A glass of humbleness would go a long way toward your education.


I have studied some of very indepth scholarships on this subject, to the point you have to read them over and over to comprehend all the information presented to get even a partial picture.
 

fallingblood

Agnostic Theist
You missed the date of composition of the garden story by 450 years, thats not a small mistake.
I showed you other sources that disagreed with your dating. One of those was from Wiki.
Like i said

and this goes for anyone







the difference between you and me is I gladly concede if i make a mistake, in over a year I have yet to see you admit one single of many. Your ego wont let you, as you want to act like some kind of authority. While you do have much to offer, and i wish I had your knowledge on some subjects. A glass of humbleness would go a long way toward your education.


I have studied some of very indepth scholarships on this subject, to the point you have to read them over and over to comprehend all the information presented to get even a partial picture.
If you want to make this personal, I'm not going down that road. I don't appreciate you trying to make this personal, or your constant refusal to actually address the subject. If you want a discussion, then I'm all for it. However, I will not deal with your ad hominems.
 

outhouse

Atheistically
I showed you other sources that disagreed with your dating. One of those was from Wiki.

False

you made a claim J was a single author which is completely inaccurate.

you made the claim J was the author for the garden story which is also completely inaccurate.




you only supplied a date of the beginning of the composition of J, the rest of your sources are missing.


quit digging holes for your mistakes
 
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outhouse

Atheistically
If you want to make this personal, I'm not going down that road. I don't appreciate you trying to make this personal, or your constant refusal to actually address the subject. If you want a discussion, then I'm all for it. However, I will not deal with your ad hominems

false.


you just wont admit your mistakes and you try and insulate your ego.



you screwed up by jumping in the middle of one of my post trying to correct me, while agreeing satan was not written in to the geneis creation story.


You stepped in it, dont clean your shoe's off on me
 
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fallingblood

Agnostic Theist
false.


you just wont admit your mistakes and you try and insulate your ego.



you screwed up by jumping in the middle of one of my post trying to correct me, while agreeing satan was not written in to the geneis creation story.


You stepped in it, dont clean your shoe's off on me
Well, you have the honor of being the first one on my ignore list. Maybe, when you want to actually discuss the subject at hand, instead of making baseless attacks against me, I will have a little more patience for you.
 

outhouse

Atheistically
when i get caught in a mistake, I have never put anyone on ignore.

I man up, and say thanks, your right.
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
the event; beings who have an innate sense or ability of curiosity and acting on that.

as far as it being an actual event....it's impossible to say....
unless your have unfounded belief that is was an actual event.

I see you're still wounded....

So now you would say.... God and Man have never met.
The event never happened.

So much for any notion of life after death....spiritual life....
so much for you.

You no longer have anything to offer.
 

outhouse

Atheistically
I see you're still wounded....

So now you would say.... God and Man have never met.
The event never happened.

So much for any notion of life after death....spiritual life....
so much for you.

You no longer have anything to offer.


history shows us that even is literary, created 500 BC


only 700 years after hebrews existed in Israel
 

sincerly

Well-Known Member
I am in the middle of writing an article on just this subject, but I did want to address this. Who are you to say I have no credibility? What degrees do you have, what research have you actually done besides Google and Wiki? Really, what sort of authority do you have on this subject?

Really, I see this as nothing more than a veiled attack, in order to dodge the actual issue. You act as if you are an expert on this subject, yet the sources you provide don't even support what you are saying.

And now I'm going to ask you again to actually address the subject here. So again, I pose these questions. What does the serpent represent? Why did they choose a serpent? Why did they make the serpent speak? Really, what does the myth actually mean?

FB, you claim to be a Christian, But deny that there is a Creator GOD by your posts. The Oxford dictionary definition of Myth :
1a traditional story, especially one concerning the early history of a people or explaining a natural or social phenomenon, and typically involving supernatural beings or events: ancient Celtic myths [mass noun]: the heroes of Greek myth
  • 2a widely held but false belief or idea: the belief that evening primrose oil helps to cure eczema is a myth, according to dermatologists
  • a fictitious or imaginary person or thing: nobody had ever heard of Simon’s mysterious friend—Anna said he was a myth
  • an exaggerated or idealized conception of a person or thing: the book is a scholarly study of the Churchill myth
Origin:mid 19th century: from modern Latin mythus, via late Latin from Greek muthos

Your stated you agree that the story/narrative concerning the Creation of all things by GOD is a "myth".
However, Genesis Chapters 1+2 are straight forward---not symbolic. Moses Wrote what GOD had told him in regards the creation of all things and the downfall of mankind and that the Ceremonial/Sacrificial laws were a means for the Atoning of Sins.
Those Israelites were well aware of the "oral" history and promises made to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob(Israel).(therefore, the "tell them" "I Am" sent me.)
The scriptures, in giving the life spans of the geneologies, reveal that Noah and Shem were both alive during Abraham's life.(Shem out lived Abraham.)

Your reliance on the works by Julius Wellhausen to set in chronicled order the first five books of the Bible is Wrong. And he admitted that his teaching theology to students faulty Notice:
"I became a theologian because the scientific treatment of the Bible interested me; only gradually did I come to understand that a professor of theology also has the practical task of preparing the students for service in the Protestant Church, and that I am not adequate to this practical task, but that instead despite all caution on my own part I make my hearers unfit for their office. Since then my theological professorship has been weighing heavily on my conscience."

Rev.12:7-9 shows Satan/Lucifer for who he is.(various names.) Also, his mission. see 1Pet.5:8 in connection with Luke22:31
Also, the scriptures inform us that Satan can "transform himself into an angel of light''.(2Cor.11:14). Since persons can be ventriloquist, is it farfetched to understand that the serpent was speaking by Satan????
The narrative/story is truth and was recording the results of Disobedience and the need for a reconciliation by all generations unto the end of recorded time.(that last person to accept the saving blood of Christ as the atonement for their sin debt.)
 

fallingblood

Agnostic Theist
FB, you claim to be a Christian, But deny that there is a Creator GOD by your posts.
I have never denied that there is a creator God. I had stated that the the creation stories are a myth, but that does not mean that I don't believe God is the creator. It simply means that I think the creation stories are myths.
Your stated you agree that the story/narrative concerning the Creation of all things by GOD is a "myth".
However, Genesis Chapters 1+2 are straight forward---not symbolic. Moses Wrote what GOD had told him in regards the creation of all things and the downfall of mankind and that the Ceremonial/Sacrificial laws were a means for the Atoning of Sins.
There is no evidence Moses wrote these stories. In fact, it is pretty much impossible for Moses to have written the Torah, as he would have had to record his own death and a few events thereafter. More so, Moses never claims to have written the entire Torah. So there is really no reason to assume that Moses wrote this stuff, especially when he was only accredited the writing at a later date.

As for Genesis 1-2 being straight forward, not at all. If they were so straightforward, there wouldn't be so much debate as to what they actually mean. And this debate has been going on for millennia. Even among those who accept them as historical records, there is debate as to what they actually mean. That wouldn't be true if they were straight forward.

Also, why are there two creation stories if God told Moses what happened? Did God tell Moses two different versions?
Those Israelites were well aware of the "oral" history and promises made to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob(Israel).(therefore, the "tell them" "I Am" sent me.)
The scriptures, in giving the life spans of the geneologies, reveal that Noah and Shem were both alive during Abraham's life.(Shem out lived Abraham.)
Those genealogies, if you really study them, are impossible. No one lives that long. It simply does not happen. And if you know a little bit about Middle Eastern practices (or previous practices that they had), they were not really concerned with how long people actually lived. It was more guess work as age really wasn't a big concern. This remained true even into modern times.
Your reliance on the works by Julius Wellhausen to set in chronicled order the first five books of the Bible is Wrong.
I rely on more up to date work. This view has been held for quite some time, and for good reason. We see doublets in the Torah, or stories that are repeated. A single author would not do that. They would not tell one story, and then retell it again differently. So there must be a reason. The ideas that Wellhausen help create have been expanded on though, and have been worked with. To rely on just Wellhausen would be a mistake, but those scholars who have picked up his work and continued with it, are quite sound.
And he admitted that his teaching theology to students faulty Notice:
Yes, his teaching theology may have been faulty, but that doesn't mean his study of the Bible was wrong. All he was saying is that he wasn't the best teacher. That has nothing to do with his other exploits. Also, I don't rely on just Wellhausen. There is quite a bit of modern scholarship on the subject as well.
Rev.12:7-9 shows Satan/Lucifer for who he is.(various names.) Also, his mission. see 1Pet.5:8 in connection with Luke22:31
Also, the scriptures inform us that Satan can "transform himself into an angel of light''.(2Cor.11:14). Since persons can be ventriloquist, is it farfetched to understand that the serpent was speaking by Satan????
The narrative/story is truth and was recording the results of Disobedience and the need for a reconciliation by all generations unto the end of recorded time.(that last person to accept the saving blood of Christ as the atonement for their sin debt.)
This simply is seeing what you want in the story. It has nothing to do with Christ. It has nothing to do with Satan. Neither are mentioned or suggested in the story. You are reading what you want into the story, while ignoring what the story actually says. That simply is not a sound method of interpreting scripture.
 

waitasec

Veteran Member
I have never denied that there is a creator God. I had stated that the the creation stories are a myth, but that does not mean that I don't believe God is the creator. It simply means that I think the creation stories are myths.

controlling issues?
:shrug:
 

sincerly

Well-Known Member


Thanks for acknowledging that persons do hide their eyes from seeing the truth of the scriptures.
2Tim.4:2-4 describes the conditions of this era---your icon is very suitable. "Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away [their] ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables."

Also, Jesus to John in Rev.14:6-7. ,"And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people, Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters."

Creation by GOD is truth. Also, the disobedience shown was True and the Plan of Redemption shown was true. Yes, the slaying of the Animal to cover the "nakedness" was symbolic, but the events leading to the "bequiling" were true. And that by the disobedient Angel who was cast out of Heaven/GOD'S presence---to earth.
 
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outhouse

Atheistically

why?


theres nothing anyone can do that will bring a responce of any kind

there is no moral crime one can commit to bring any kind of a responce.


there is nothing there! to be afraid of.

is there any power at all there?? nope
 

waitasec

Veteran Member
Thanks for acknowledging that persons do hide their eyes from seeing the truth of the scriptures.
2Tim.4:2-4 describes the conditions of this era---your icon is very suitable. "Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away [their] ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables."

Also, Jesus to John in Rev.14:6-7. ,"And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people, Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters."

Creation by GOD is truth. Also, the disobedience shown was True and the Plan of Redemption shown was true. Yes, the slaying of the Animal to cover the "nakedness" was symbolic, but the events leading to the "bequiling" were true. And that by the disobedient Angel who was cast out of Heaven/GOD'S presence---to earth.

i feel sorry for you.
 

sincerly

Well-Known Member
I have never denied that there is a creator God. I had stated that the the creation stories are a myth, but that does not mean that I don't believe God is the creator. It simply means that I think the creation stories are myths.

FB, This post is double-talk. "there is a creator God" vs. "I think the creation stories are myths." Since you believe the beginnings of this earth is a MYTH, then why am I seeing and experiencing the reality of IT. Something from nothing----does not just spontaneously appear.

Your "symbolism" would have to include "GOD" as HE is a vital part of the creative event. Therefore,For what is GOD a symbol?? What would be the purpose of "symbolism" to a person who was just created?? And what would that "person" by a symbol concerning???

No! Not myth, but reality. GOD "spoke and it stood fast". Instantly! Not billions+ years.
BTW, searching the wiki-links concerning this "creation myth" shows vividly that it is a man imputed information site.( not to say there isn't some truth in some articles) Even, Today the "debate" rages as to the wording. While by their rules, the imput is supposed to be "neutral", the "editors" opinions(POV) are biased---plain and simple.
Therefore, the academic definition of "myth" is "symbolic narrative". Which means a narrative not based on "reality". That translates to being "false"/"a lie". Or being "politically correct" in today's jargon/"spinning of issues".

Therefore, back to that serpent in the Garden, is it wise to believe that which is contrary to GOD'S revealed information, OR that "uttered by the serpent"??(Man made traditions, decrees made in the councils of men, etc.?)

There is no evidence Moses wrote these stories. In fact, it is pretty much impossible for Moses to have written the Torah, as he would have had to record his own death and a few events thereafter. More so, Moses never claims to have written the entire Torah. So there is really no reason to assume that Moses wrote this stuff, especially when he was only accredited the writing at a later date.

Ex.24:3-4, "And Moses came and told the people all the words of the LORD, and all the judgments: and all the people answered with one voice, and said, All the words which the LORD hath said will we do. And Moses wrote all the words of the LORD, and rose up early in the morning, and builded an altar under the hill, and twelve pillars, according to the twelve tribes of Israel."

Believe the Scriptures or the serpent.

As for Genesis 1-2 being straight forward, not at all. If they were so straightforward, there wouldn't be so much debate as to what they actually mean. And this debate has been going on for millennia. Even among those who accept them as historical records, there is debate as to what they actually mean. That wouldn't be true if they were straight forward.

Eat of it and die----GOD'S warning. "Ye shall not surely die"---the serpents lie.
Believe GOD or serpent.



Also, why are there two creation stories if God told Moses what happened? Did God tell Moses two different versions?

There is not two versions.

Those genealogies, if you really study them, are impossible. No one lives that long. It simply does not happen. And if you know a little bit about Middle Eastern practices (or previous practices that they had), they were not really concerned with how long people actually lived. It was more guess work as age really wasn't a big concern. This remained true even into modern times.

FB, Is anything "impossible with GOD"?? Wasn't the "tree of life in the garden"?? Wasn't tey barred from that tree to prevent them from living "forever".(Which was God's plan in the creation of all things.)

I rely on more up to date work. This view has been held for quite some time, and for good reason. We see doublets in the Torah, or stories that are repeated. A single author would not do that. They would not tell one story, and then retell it again differently. So there must be a reason....

To rely on "more up to date work" is to doubt GOD and trust man.

This simply is seeing what you want in the story. It has nothing to do with Christ. It has nothing to do with Satan. Neither are mentioned or suggested in the story. You are reading what you want into the story, while ignoring what the story actually says. That simply is not a sound method of interpreting scripture.

FB, the beginning of the narrative of the man's History from his creation by GOD to the end of the narrative in Revelation(and it is a continuing/ongoing/unfolding history of each inividual's life and the rewards each will receive.) is, as Paul writes in 1Cor.10:6, 11, "Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted...Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come."
Also, Rom.15:4, "For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope. "

FB, it is your perogative to rely on the opinions of false "modern scholars"; Or the truths revealed in the inspired scriptures.
2Thess.2:3-4 has this truth filled prophecy, "Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God."

Again, man's way/beliefs or those living words of GOD.
 

sincerly

Well-Known Member
why?


theres nothing anyone can do that will bring a responce of any kind

there is no moral crime one can commit to bring any kind of a responce.


there is nothing there! to be afraid of.

is there any power at all there?? nope

Jude1:18, "How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts."

The law of the harvest-----"You reap what you sow".
 
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