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How did Satan get to the garden of Eden?

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
There are many who say.
There was no serpent. There was no apple.
God created Adam and Eve. He then gave them free will. He told them what not to do and left the choice to them.
They had sex 'the apple'.
The devil-lucifer-snake was an angel Iblis who thought he was greater than God.
The challenge was then to see who the 'creation' would obey. That was the free will part of it.
They obeyed evil and went against God so they were banished. If they had followed God then man would have been perfect creation.

The forbidden fruit is Not mentioned as an apple.

How could the forbidden fruit be sex when at Genesis 1 v 28 they were told to reproduce [multiply] ?

As Isaiah [45v18] wrote God formed earth to be inhabited.
Not inhabited by only 2 people forbidden to have sex.
 

outhouse

Atheistically
Would like to hear?....'an oral tradition until someone learned to write'.

That would make it 'really intellectual'...would it not?

Or perhaps you would participate in this theological discussion, minus all the 'nay saying'?

Israeli's started their writing around 1000 BC, a little before actually, but not much.



If you dont follow history, not created mythology, you will ever understand a theological discussion on any book of the bible.




SO DO YOU GET IT YET! they have been writing for a while, the OT spans almost a thousand years of explaining Israeli culture.

There were no Israeli's or ancient hebrews past 3200 years ago. before this time the people belonged to another culture.

YOU need to start here where ancient hebrews story begins and quit moving goal post if you want tto really learn about the religion you belong to.
 

outhouse

Atheistically
The forbidden fruit is Not mentioned as an apple.

How could the forbidden fruit be sex when at Genesis 1 v 28 they were told to reproduce [multiply] ?

As Isaiah [45v18] wrote God formed earth to be inhabited.
Not inhabited by only 2 people forbidden to have sex.


maybe they were not supposed to eat the forbidden fruit, because then you wont multiply
 

Pink Top Hat

Active Member
Hi PTH, welcome to the fray/battle. People do say a lot of things especially when it comes to Religion. There was no identifying of the "fruit" as being an apple. Howerver, People still desire to follow the inclinations of their minds---to obey or disobey that which is/was specifically commanded by the Creator GOD.



PTH, The Bible, Holy Scriptures, acknowledge that When Adam and Eve were created {Eve was taken from Man} GOD had said, "Be fruitful and multiple, and replenish the earth,"--therefore, Sex wasn't forbidden nor obtained from the tree.



The Bible( and the Quran{Iblis} do identify Satan as an angel and the serpent which was in the Garden and adversarily did subtlely(through lies) seduce Eve to Eat of the Fruit from that forbidden tree.



That Challenge was initially between GOD and SATAN----Satan had disobeyed in heaven with the same "freedom of choice"--- and was "banished/casted out" of heaven. That "Controversy is still in progress" even though Satan was defeated at Calvary. The Evil ways has to run its course---the Disobedient Angels are awaiting the "day of Judgment which" will include mankind's disobedience as well.

Had Adam and Eve remained obedient there would have been no SIN and NO NEED for the "Lamb to be slain from the foundation of the world".(for Atoment).
(Mankind had been made and declared "GOOD" from the start/day of creation.)


I can agree up to the atonement part.
That just makes no sense at all.

Think about it.

We are not responsible for anothers sins. If I kill someone should my grandson be punished or carry some sort of curse? Each person is accountable for his own sin and that is justice. That is the message it gives.

Before Jesus PBUH there was no mention of atonement for Adam and Eve sin.
Why wait all those thousands of years before sending a so called redeemer. What about the souls who died before Jesus PBUH ?

Human sacrifice is an abomination. Why would God sacrifice someone for another sins when it is clearly an abomination already?

Deuteronomy 12:31

New International Version (NIV)

31 You must not worship the LORD your God in their way, because in worshiping their gods, they do all kinds of detestable things the LORD hates. They even burn their sons and daughters in the fire as sacrifices to their gods.


Why do something God detests already?
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
Israeli's started their writing around 1000 BC, a little before actually, but not much.



If you dont follow history, not created mythology, you will ever understand a theological discussion on any book of the bible.




SO DO YOU GET IT YET! they have been writing for a while, the OT spans almost a thousand years of explaining Israeli culture.

There were no Israeli's or ancient hebrews past 3200 years ago. before this time the people belonged to another culture.

YOU need to start here where ancient hebrews story begins and quit moving goal post if you want tto really learn about the religion you belong to.

You don't get it yet....it's not a history debate.

You can't take the serpent..out of the garden.
 

outhouse

Atheistically
You don't get it yet....it's not a history debate.

You can't take the serpent..out of the garden.

I never did.


the only thing i didnt do was rename him.


but while we are at it, the garden never existed outside of scripture.

there were never two people ONLY in a garden. this is myth.


even the place is mythical as 4 rivers never met in the last ten thousand years. and of course this passage only goes back to 2500 years ago [ish]




It is a history lesson. without knowing history, you have no clue why Israelis wrote this myth. And its why your still lost in understanding this properly
 

sincerly

Well-Known Member
this is where christian theology fails severly, and exactly why I have a problem with it.

Your a nice enough guy, your bright and have a good head on your shoulder.
But when you replace real knowledge and history, with ancient mythology, it really bothers me to see good peoples minds being diverted from accepting knowledge.

Hi Outhouse, "knowledge" comes to one as based upon "Truth". Or it can be "false knowledge" wrapped in a smattering of 'truth". That which "seemeth right", but ends in destruction.(Prov.14:12). Discernment and Understanding is the product of the correctly applied "Wisdom" to the knowledge one obtains.

It doesn't take much "wisdom" to deduce that what one sees about them didn't just happen spontaneously from nothing.
Yes, it is a shame that "Good minds" are diverted to believing the "NO CREATOR GOD" and the "man-made Theory" of evolution.

Its why creation is outlawed in public schools, while evolution is taught in EVERY major university around the world as higher education.

The "out-lawing" is because of the Constitution of the USA at present. With the multiplicity of "belief systems" at the framing and more so today, the Constitution forbade the "establishing" of a religion/GOD/a specific Belief thereof, and that included a Creator GOD of all things. However, that same Constitution Protects you in believing evolution and me in believing that Creator GOD who made all things.

The last message to this earth is being proclaimed whether or not you choose to believe it. Rev.14:7, "Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters."

If you want to have a real conversation, you need to stop the YEC nonsense

For some strange reason, are we not having a "real conversation"?? I assure you the GOD who Created all things in this earth didn't think or deem HIS work(including mankind) to be nonsense.
 

sincerly

Well-Known Member
I can agree up to the atonement part.
That just makes no sense at all.

Think about it.

I have thought about it and agree with the Atonement part, because it is the only thing that does make sense Scripturally.
The Creator GOD would have been justified had HE destroyed HIS two Created human being at the point of their Disobedience. But There had been a plan of Redemption/Salvation from before there was a "foundation" of this world.
NO! Muhammad failed to record that portion of the story and his rendering of the Scriptures is what is "corrupted"--as well .(but that's for another thread)

We are not responsible for anothers sins. If I kill someone should my grandson be punished or carry some sort of curse? Each person is accountable for his own sin and that is justice. That is the message it gives.

The message the Atonement gives is "GOD is LOVE"----Not willing that any should perish, but "that all should come to repentence". Since all have sinned, all are under the condemnation to die. It is by GOD'S Mercy and Graciousness that HE allowed HIS SON--Jesus--- to be that propitiation/Atonement for you and I. I know---the Quran doesn't acknowledge that Jesus even died. Another "corruption of the Truth".

GOD would not be JUST nor HIS laws, if death wasn't meted to the guilty as stated. You think about it.

Before Jesus PBUH there was no mention of atonement for Adam and Eve sin.
Why wait all those thousands of years before sending a so called redeemer. What about the souls who died before Jesus PBUH ?

Wrong! Gen3:15, states, "And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel." This is a prophecy reguarding Jesus and Satan(serpent) and in Vs.3:21,"Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them."( the death of an animal/Blood) now in Lev.17:11, "For the life of the flesh [is] in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it [is] the blood [that] maketh an atonement for the soul."
Those animal sacrifices were only for "the time then present"---until the real Atoneing sacrifice should be sacrificed upon the cross.Heb.9+10.

Concerning those "souls who died before Jesus" see Heb.11.

Human sacrifice is an abomination. Why would God sacrifice someone for another sins when it is clearly an abomination already?

Deuteronomy 12:31New International Version (NIV) 31 You must not worship the LORD your God in their way, because in worshiping their gods, they do all kinds of detestable things the LORD hates. They even burn their sons and daughters in the fire as sacrifices to their gods.

Why do something God detests already?

PTH, "All have sinned". Therefore, no person can satisfy the "death" penalty for another. However, HE who made all things was not included in that above. It is an abomination, because the Loving Creator God had so loved the world/HIS Human "images" that he willing gave HIS LIFE for the Repentive ones who Accepted GOD AS THEIR GOD.Rev.13:8; 1Pet.1:20
 

sincerly

Well-Known Member
Israeli's started their writing around 1000 BC, a little before actually, but not much.

Moses was about 1500 years prior. "Israel" was a name given to Jacob before he went with Joseph into Egypt---for 400 years.(descendants)

If you dont follow history, not created mythology, you will ever understand a theological discussion on any book of the bible.

The above is History from the people who lived it----And passed it from one generation to the next. The leadings of GOD in the educating of those who are willing to hear and learn the Truth. "Examples" for our "admonition". 1Cor.10:6,11; Rom.15:4, "For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope".

SO DO YOU GET IT YET! they have been writing for a while, the OT spans almost a thousand years of explaining Israeli culture.

There were no Israeli's or ancient hebrews past 3200 years ago. before this time the people belonged to another culture.

Outhouse, Jacob was named Israel approx. 4268 years ago. All "cultures" had scattered from Babel approx. 4335 years ago. As paul said, Acts17:23-28, "For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you. God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands; Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things; And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation; That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us: For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring."

YOU need to start here where ancient hebrews story begins and quit moving goal post if you want tto really learn about the religion you belong to.

Outhouse, the narrative begins at Gen.1:1 and ends with Rev. 22:21. It was man who doesn't like the instructions( Thus saith the Lord GOD) who has tried to void or destroy the CONTEXT AND MEANING OF EVERYTHING BETWEEN. The goal posts remain true and accurate. It(Narative) remains "The Everlasting Gospel".
 
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Thief

Rogue Theologian
I never did.


the only thing i didnt do was rename him.

I didn't rename him...not required.
The action of the character reveals him.


but while we are at it, the garden never existed outside of scripture.

It's gone....true....it served it's purpose.

there were never two people ONLY in a garden. this is myth.

The garden was an isolated event to change the body and mind of Man.
The divergence of Man from all other life ....happened.

even the place is mythical as 4 rivers never met in the last ten thousand years. and of course this passage only goes back to 2500 years ago [ish]


It is a history lesson. without knowing history, you have no clue why Israelis wrote this myth. And its why your still lost in understanding this properly

It is not a history lesson...and you don't have a clue.

The story was written to explain a great many things.

Why we don't walk with God as did Adam.
Why life is hard...compared to the garden.
Why we die.
It's all about God introducing Himself to Man.

Until you deal with this as a real event...you don't have a clue.

Your continual nay saying is noted.
But is not a rebuttal to faith.
 
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outhouse

Atheistically
Moses was about 1500 years prior. "Israel" was a name given to Jacob before he went with Joseph into Egypt---for 400 years.(descendants)



The above is History from the people who lived it----And passed it from one generation to the next. The leadings of GOD in the educating of those who are willing to hear and learn the Truth. "Examples" for our "admonition". 1Cor.10:6,11; Rom.15:4, "For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope".



Outhouse, Jacob was named Israel approx. 4268 years ago. All "cultures" had scattered from Babel approx. 4335 years ago. As paul said, Acts17:23-28, "For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you. God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands; Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things; And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation; That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us: For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring."



Outhouse, the narrative begins at Gen.1:1 and ends with Rev. 22:21. It was man who doesn't like the instructions( Thus saith the Lord GOD) who has tried to void or destroy the CONTEXT AND MEANING OF EVERYTHING BETWEEN. The goal posts remain true and accurate. It(Narative) remains "The Everlasting Gospel".


you need to stop the YEC nonsense, if you want to have a real talk about the history of the bible.


the earth is not 6000 years old, and I have posted you information showing that ancient hebrews did not exist as a culture or place before 1200 BC. These are facts and not up for debate.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_ancient_Israel_and_Judah

The religion of the Israelites of Iron Age I, like many Ancient Near Eastern religions, was based on the cult of the ancestors and the worship of family gods (the "gods of the fathers").[75] The major deities were not numerous – El, Asherah, and Yahweh, with Baal as a fourth god in the early period


The name Israel first appears in the stele of the Egyptian pharaoh Merneptah c. 1209 BC, "Israel is laid waste and his seed is no more."[20] This "Israel" was a cultural and probably political entity of the central highlands, well enough established to be perceived by the Egyptians as a possible challenge to their hegemony, but an ethnic group rather than an organised state;[21] Archaeologist Paula McNutt says: "It is probably ... during Iron Age I [that] a population began to identify itself as 'Israelite'," differentiating itself from its neighbours via prohibitions on intermarriage, an emphasis on family history and genealogy, and religion.[22]
In the Late Bronze Age there were no more than about 25 villages in the highlands, but this increased to over 300 by the end of Iron I, while the settled population doubled from 20,000 to 40,000.[23] The villages were more numerous and larger in the north, and probably shared the highlands with pastoral nomads who left no remains
 
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outhouse

Atheistically
It is not a history lesson...and you don't have a clue.

The story was written to explain a great many things.

Why we don't walk with God as did Adam.
Why life is hard...compared to the garden.
Why we die.
It's all about God introducing Himself to Man.

Until you deal with this as a real event...you don't have a clue.

Your continual nay saying is noted.
But is not a rebuttal to faith.


you cannot make up history as you go. History is not a interpretation error.

its what is known.

Adam started as Adamu in the Mesopotamian culture in which influenced the Israeli culture.




adam has ZERO historicity as a real man, all historians follow this. this isnt up for debate.

get this through your head, scholars say he was a creation in scripture, ancient mythology.

what part of it never happened dont you understand??
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
you cannot make up history as you go. History is not a interpretation error.

its what is known.

Adam started as Adamu in the Mesopotamian culture in which influenced the Israeli culture.




adam has ZERO historicity as a real man, all historians follow this. this isnt up for debate.

get this through your head, scholars say he was a creation in scripture, ancient mythology.

what part of it never happened dont you understand??

Get through your head ...I believe in God.
God has met with Man.
The first would be Adam.

If you want to say the written records are flawed to the point of mythical...
okay.

But to say there is no God...no connection between the Creator and His creation.....is not up for debate.

Someone had to be first in mind and heart...in spirit.....God.
God created Man.
That the Creator has something to do about His creation....is expected.
 

outhouse

Atheistically
God created Man.

actually there is a mountain of evidence that is not the case


the evidence points to evolution as the origns for humanity


its also obvious homo sapiens have always had a habit of creating deities.


God has met with Man.

says who?? have proof?


The first would be Adam.

this was Mesopotamian mythology used by Israeli's, adamu existed in writing before adam.


no connection between the Creator and His creation


your making up something that just isnt there.


your making your own theology with this. not following what is in place.


Someone had to be first in mind and heart...in spirit.....God.


False again


El and Yawheh were both Canaanite deities before they were Israeli deities. both were redacted to be one deity. This is showing the clear path in which man defined the deity as he needed





explain why Genesis was written in the 5th and 6th century, 600 years after the formation of the hebrew culture.
 

sincerly

Well-Known Member
you need to stop the YEC nonsense, if you want to have a real talk about the history of the bible.

Outhouse, this last comment from the "wikipedia" "editors" is the reason your comments are to be "debated" . Notice: """"The villages were more numerous and larger in the north, and probably shared the highlands with pastoral nomads who left no remains.""""

You aren't speaking of the history of the Bible, but the theories put together by recent "scholars"/ "editors" who seek to validate their own suppositions/probabilities with their own myths. The History of the earth is as written and validated by the one who made it----"I AM the Lord thy GOD."
That same GOD left it up to each one to choose to -----believe or disbelieve.
Those opinions(by men) given in your sites are no better than the
erroneous lies which were uttered by the serpent/Satan in the Garden.

Are you implying that because a group of people were nomads and kept moving from site to site that they were NOT a CULTURE and therefore, NO HISTORICITY??? That is the "nonsense" of so-called "scholars"/scientist/etc..
In 1Tim.6:20, he was given some wise admonition. "O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane [and] vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called:"
 

outhouse

Atheistically
Outhouse, this last comment from the "wikipedia" "editors" is the reason your comments are to be "debated" . Notice: """"The villages were more numerous and larger in the north, and probably shared the highlands with pastoral nomads who left no remains.""""

You aren't speaking of the history of the Bible, but the theories put together by recent "scholars"/ "editors" who seek to validate their own suppositions/probabilities with their own myths. The History of the earth is as written and validated by the one who made it----"I AM the Lord thy GOD."
That same GOD left it up to each one to choose to -----believe or disbelieve.
Those opinions(by men) given in your sites are no better than the
erroneous lies which were uttered by the serpent/Satan in the Garden.

Are you implying that because a group of people were nomads and kept moving from site to site that they were NOT a CULTURE and therefore, NO HISTORICITY??? That is the "nonsense" of so-called "scholars"/scientist/etc..
In 1Tim.6:20, he was given some wise admonition. "O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane [and] vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called:"


Im sorry my friend that you dont want to follow modern history over ancient myths.


the people that made up Israeli's were for the most part Canaanites, then Mesopotamians and only a few semetic speaking Egyptians that were never a enslaved race.


here is another source



Israelites - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


The Israelites (or children of Israel) were the "chosen people" of the god Yahweh, according to the Hebrew bible. According to their religious scriptures they were a Hebrew-speaking people of the Ancient Near East who inhabited the Land of Canaan (the modern day Israel, western Jordan, southern Lebanon and Palestinian Territories) during the monarchic period (11th to 7th centuries BCE).


This states they only go back to the 11th century BC


History of Israel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Early Israelites (1200–950 BCE)

The Merneptah Stele (JE 31408), the earliest record of the name "Israel" (Cairo Museum)


See also: Kingdom of Israel (united monarchy), Israelites, and Hebrews
The first record of the name Israel (as ysrỉꜣr) occurs in the Merneptah stele, erected for Egyptian Pharaoh Merneptah c. 1209 BCE, "Israel is laid waste and his seed is not."[1] William Dever sees this "Israel" in the central highlands as a cultural and probably political entity, but an ethnic group rather than an organized state.[2]
Ancestors of the Israelites may have included Semites who occupied Canaan and the Sea Peoples.[3] McNutt says, "It is probably safe to assume that sometime during Iron Age I a population began to identify itself as 'Israelite'", differentiating itself from the Canaanites through such markers as the prohibition of intermarriage, an emphasis on family history and genealogy, and religion.[4]
Villages had populations of up to 300 or 400,[5][6] which lived by farming and herding and were largely self-sufficient;[7] economic interchange was prevalent.[8] Writing was known and available for recording, even in small sites.[9] The archaeological evidence indicates a society of village-like centres, but with more limited resources and a small population



this shows no israelis existed prior to 1200 BC


the same deity Yawheh worshipped by israeli's was worshipped by Canaanites and originated in Edom and was also worshipped by the Shasu tribe, ALL long before Israeli's existed.
 

fallingblood

Agnostic Theist
Get through your head ...I believe in God.
God has met with Man.
The first would be Adam.

If you want to say the written records are flawed to the point of mythical...
okay.

But to say there is no God...no connection between the Creator and His creation.....is not up for debate.

Someone had to be first in mind and heart...in spirit.....God.
God created Man.
That the Creator has something to do about His creation....is expected.
I don't know if we can expect God to have something to do with his creation though. Job kind of suggests otherwise. Or at the very least, that God has limited himself.

I do believe that God has met with humans though. Maybe it isn't a physical meeting, but a meeting nonetheless. I think that would be more in the eye of the beholder though. Many can find God in nature, and I think that can constitute a personal feeling of meeting God.
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
actually there is a mountain of evidence that is not the case


the evidence points to evolution as the origns for humanity


its also obvious homo sapiens have always had a habit of creating deities.




says who?? have proof?




this was Mesopotamian mythology used by Israeli's, adamu existed in writing before adam.





your making up something that just isnt there.


your making your own theology with this. not following what is in place.





False again


El and Yawheh were both Canaanite deities before they were Israeli deities. both were redacted to be one deity. This is showing the clear path in which man defined the deity as he needed





explain why Genesis was written in the 5th and 6th century, 600 years after the formation of the hebrew culture.

At this point it is obvious...you're groping....hoping to hang on to your disbelief.

Oral tradition finally rendered to writing?...sure...had to happen.
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
I don't know if we can expect God to have something to do with his creation though. Job kind of suggests otherwise. Or at the very least, that God has limited himself.

I do believe that God has met with humans though. Maybe it isn't a physical meeting, but a meeting nonetheless. I think that would be more in the eye of the beholder though. Many can find God in nature, and I think that can constitute a personal feeling of meeting God.

This perspective would allow anyone to believe in God.
That's a good thing.

So then we could assume as much again for someone living long ago?
And that experience might be more thorough?

Not hard to expand your post to include Adam.
Picture yourself living in ideal conditions.

After awhile you might think, you have found God's personal garden.
And being 'found' in His garden...you might have conversation?

Genesis is unique in it's play, as it more than suggests a meeting with God.
It tells of a manipulation to alter the body and spirit of Man.
That manipulation speaks of technique and method, Man has only recently learned to be possible.

It then goes on to more than suggest, some interference.

I hear a serpent hissing....
 

outhouse

Atheistically
At this point it is obvious...you're groping....hoping to hang on to your disbelief.

Oral tradition finally rendered to writing?...sure...had to happen.

my position has nothing to do with belief or the lack of.


Mine has to do with the real interpretation of material we have to work with.


You want to throw out what is known and make reality up with imagination and your own personal version. It doesnt work like that, YOU dont create history
 
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