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How did Satan get to the garden of Eden?

Thief

Rogue Theologian
Claiming to know what God is up to moment to moment is a bit of a stretch.

I could claim the moon is made of Green Cheese "for good reason"
That you disagree doesn't mean I am wrong ?!

In a manner of speaking....God is right behind you.
Your most recent retort will be handed to over to the angels and heaven.
They will ask me....
'Have you heard such things?.....who told you this?...did you believe him?'

They might then seek you out....to see if you have changed your mind.

If you can claim the moon is green cheese and make the angels smile.....
good for you.
 

Oryonder

Active Member
In a manner of speaking....God is right behind you.
Your most recent retort will be handed to over to the angels and heaven.
They will ask me....
'Have you heard such things?.....who told you this?...did you believe him?'

They might then seek you out....to see if you have changed your mind.

If you can claim the moon is green cheese and make the angels smile.....
good for you.

Wow !... I did not realize that the Angels in heaven actually consult with you.

That is impressive.

Is this how you know so much about God ?
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
Now that I have everyone's attention....
anyone care to make a rebuttal?

And let's try to stay on point.
This isn't history, nor is it rhetoric....

It's about the events in the garden.
 

BobbyisStrange

The Adversary
Now that I have everyone's attention....
anyone care to make a rebuttal?

And let's try to stay on point.
This isn't history, nor is it rhetoric....

It's about the events in the garden.

With all do respect you have been talking about everything accept the events in the garden.
 

sincerly

Well-Known Member
First off half the population of Egypt did not up and leave.

That figure is a figment of your assumptions---I only stated as the scriptures indicated---"a mixted multitude" came out with the Israelites.

Second .. if this would have happened the Egyptians would have recorded it.

Why? Pharaoh had denied GOD existed, should he have recorded the fact, that would admit him being wrong----concerning the living GOD of the Israelites; the years of enslavement of the Israelites,The plagues which GOD brought upon the Egyptians for their disobedience, etc.

Third.. we have no clue how many left .. you are making up rediculous numbers out of thin air.
see #1.

Of course God did not send Manna for 40 years. If God was to use "magic" then there is no reason to part the Red Sea and so forth .. he could have just wiggled is index finger.

Call a miracle--"magic"--if you will, but an allusion doesn't fill an empty stomach for 40 years nor actually part the waters so one walks upon dry land.
Both events were recorded for/as our examples of Faith in the Events produced and the power of the Almighty Creator COD.

Fourth .. "IF" God had been using magic to do all these things there is no way on hells green earth that "all" the people would have been looking for another God after Moses dissappears for a month. .. Especially not his Brother Aaron.

Use the brain that God gave you ?

I suggest that you take your advice. GOD was neither tricking the people with "parlor magic" nor "deluding" the people in any manner. Their Freedom of choice to disbelieve who HE IS and HIS MOTIVES continues to be choice the majority of the people exhibit today.
The recored events reveal that Aaron took a lot of molding by GOD to believe as did Moses.

Fifth.. upon Moses return there would have been no people that would have rebelled against him .. simply for fear of God's wrath.

This makes zero sense.

That's because you do not want it to "make sense". The people were not rebelling against Moses---- the rebelling was against GOD---in the making of a "god" to return them to Egypt/slavery.

A mixed multitude that was your made up number of 1 Million .. where did you get this from anyway ?

BTW .. if you actually use the rule of doubling .. and you take every generation at 30 years. In 400 years that is 13 doublings. Starting with a population of 10,000 you would have roughly 100 million people.

That would be 100 times my guesstamation, but I see you understand the how that 1 million would be very possible. Again, that was The Israelites and the "Mixed multitude".

Then it was Moses who associated Yahweh with El .. Abraham and son's did not know this.

Your reading comprehension is lacking, Or you are deliberately distorting what I have posted.
GOD revealed it; Moses recorded it. GOD is seen and referred to by many nmes it the Scriptures. Over a period of over 400 years, why the non-belief of that fact?

Since we do not have any copies of the Bible written in Egyptian .. the copies that were made were written by someone else since Moses was raised egyptian. The people that wrote/Edited the Bible lived at the time of Persia. They were the ones that put the name Yahweh in the Bible.

GOD wrote on the tablets of stone the Decalogue---Are you claiming that GOD was writing in the language of the Egyptians?? Moses recorded in the language of the Israelites. What's so odd concerning that fact?

Your source is ignoring the fact that from Moses to the end of the Babylonian captivity was roughly 1000 years.
Your source ignores that All Of the Israelite HISTORY; writings of the Prophets and GOD'S dealings with the Israelites and their surrounding neighbors, could NOT be done by the Israelites---but had to be from those who Denied the Creator GOD for their own hand made "gods"/beliefs.
Apparently, since you believe that the "nations" about the Israelites contributed to the "Beliefs" found in the Israelites "Writings"/Bible/Scriptures then it is your belief that the "editing" at that time has little to do with the instructions/principles given by GOD from Genesis until that day in Persia.

Daniel(3:26) wrote that Nebuchadnezzar made a decree that every people who speak anything amiss against the GOD of the three Hebrews should be cut to sunder.
Then Durius the Mede(6:26) did the same when Daniel survived the lion's den and just before the captivity ended. Those decrees went to all the provinces of the Babyononian and Medeo-Persian Empires.

What is this ? how can 8 people scatter throughout the world and become Chinese, Black and South American in 100 years ?

Again, that isn't what I wrote nor the scriptures expressed. What do you know about genetics? that would answer your question. Remember the human race began with two people---not Eight(those eight were on the Ark.). There was a lapse of 100 years from the landing of the Ark to the scattering from the tower of Babel.

How did they get to South America ? .. This is Absurd.

The Scriptures do not say. But you and the doubling of 13 generations in 400 years proved that over 100 million persons was possible.

In 2400-2300 BC Sargon of Akkad (where Akkadian writing comes from which was the language of commerce for 2000 years until 500 BC) conquered the city states of Sumeria to become the worlds first empire.

These cities had been there for not just centuries, but millenia prior to this happening.

There was no sudden flood that ended all this .. same in Egypt, China, India and so on.

SO??? The Flood was over by approx. 156 years when Sargon of Akkad started his empire. Again, plenty of time to populate the area.

These peoples all existed way before "The tower of Babel"

Not according to the dates you gave.


The only answer of course is "Magic" .. If God was using Magic there was no need for a Flood .. he could have just wiggled his middle finger and all the bad people would have disappeared.

As above---NO "Magic". However, you are negating the power of the Creator GOD as no more than what is seen in mankind.
ALL early civilizations came from the same source and, therefore, have retained or discarded what either pleased or displeased them.
That is scriptural(Rom.1:18-23) and no different from that seen in the peoples of the world today.
 

sincerly

Well-Known Member
See what I mean?

The Bible isn't just Chapter Two of Genesis. More details are seen of subjects in other places of the BIBLE.
In Luke, Jesus attests to seeing Satan cast out of heaven. In revelation, we are told of the "war in heaven" and Satan was cast out to earth. In JOB, Satan admits to "going to and fro in the earth and from walking up and down in it".
Just as Satan tempted JOB, So did he with Eve.

We are amused by a ventriloquist, but many deny that Satan could use a snake in deceiving Eve.( that wasn't the only time an animal was used to give a message to a human.)
Satan has made jack-***** out of many who are willing to speak his lies contradicting GOD.
 

Oryonder

Active Member
That figure is a figment of your assumptions---I only stated as the scriptures indicated---"a mixted multitude" came out with the Israelites.

It was you that gave the figure of 1 million. Obviously if all of Egypt was estimated to be 2million that is half.

Why are you accusing me of the assumption that you were responsible for ?




Why? Pharaoh had denied GOD existed, should he have recorded the fact, that would admit him being wrong----concerning the living GOD of the Israelites; the years of enslavement of the Israelites,The plagues which GOD brought upon the Egyptians for their disobedience, etc.

The Egyptian belief in God would have nothing to do with recording that 1/2 the population left ?


Call a miracle--"magic"--if you will, but an allusion doesn't fill an empty stomach for 40 years nor actually part the waters so one walks upon dry land.
Both events were recorded for/as our examples of Faith in the Events produced and the power of the Almighty Creator COD.

Do you believe that story that has been recorded throughout history is true ?

Why do you say things that you yourself do not believe.

I suggest that you take your advice. GOD was neither tricking the people with "parlor magic" nor "deluding" the people in any manner. Their Freedom of choice to disbelieve who HE IS and HIS MOTIVES continues to be choice the majority of the people exhibit today.
The recored events reveal that Aaron took a lot of molding by GOD to believe as did Moses.

What are you talking about ? It is the recorded events that I am referring to.

If a "Real God" had shown up .. parted the Red Sea and sent food from heaven .. there is no way these people would be looking for a new God a few weeks after Moses leaves.

Especially not his Brother Aaron.

That's because you do not want it to "make sense". The people were not rebelling against Moses---- the rebelling was against GOD---in the making of a "god" to return them to Egypt/slavery.

Of course I want things to "make sense" dont you ?

That these people would "rebel" against a "REAL all powerfull God" is absolutely absurd.

The mental delusion some will go to to maintain their beliefs is amazing.

It was Aaron .. Moses's own brother that made the God. Even if we assume that after a short period of time the people "forgot" about this God or think that this God had abandoned them ..

There is no way once Moses (the conduit to all powerfull God) shows back up again that these people are going to Rebel.

You are completely ignoring human nature.

That would be 100 times my guesstamation, but I see you understand the how that 1 million would be very possible. Again, that was The Israelites and the "Mixed multitude".

I have told you three times now that it is not about the math. It is about providing food, shelter, and water for 1 million wandering through the desert.

How many times do we have to go over this ? It is human to make a mistake .. however it is the fool who tries to maintain that mistake in the face of correction.

As far as Magic .. which is what would have been required .. If God had been performing all these miraculous miracles then the people would not have ran to another God who had performed zero miracles only a few weeks after Moses left .. and they certainly would not have rebelled onces Moses came back.


Your reading comprehension is lacking, Or you are deliberately distorting what I have posted.
GOD revealed it; Moses recorded it. GOD is seen and referred to by many nmes it the Scriptures. Over a period of over 400 years, why the non-belief of that fact?

I have no idea what you are talking about here ? What are all these names of God that were revealed.

400 years ? not sure where you get this number or what it refers to.


GOD wrote on the tablets of stone the Decalogue---Are you claiming that GOD was writing in the language of the Egyptians?? Moses recorded in the language of the Israelites. What's so odd concerning that fact?

Moses was raised Egyptian and that would have been his primary language. If he was educated then he would have also learned to write Akkadian.

I have no idea what language God would have written on the stones ?

What do you think the language of the Israelites was ?

Your source is ignoring the fact that from Moses to the end of the Babylonian captivity was roughly 1000 years.
Your source ignores that All Of the Israelite HISTORY; writings of the Prophets and GOD'S dealings with the Israelites and their surrounding neighbors, could NOT be done by the Israelites---but had to be from those who Denied the Creator GOD for their own hand made "gods"/beliefs.
Apparently, since you believe that the "nations" about the Israelites contributed to the "Beliefs" found in the Israelites "Writings"/Bible/Scriptures then it is your belief that the "editing" at that time has little to do with the instructions/principles given by GOD from Genesis until that day in Persia.

Obviously if Moses primary language was Egyptian .. that would have been the language he wrote in .. that or Akkadian which was the language of commerce.

Abraham .. being from Sumeria would have spoken this language and written in Akkadian.

1400 years later, when the OT was put to paper in any kind of coherent form, the language the Israelites were speaking was different.

There is no way that the language Moses was writing in was the same as the the language the Bible was written during the time of the Persians.

Sumerian (Elamite) and Sumerian were ideogramatic languages (Symbol for an idea) .. Phonetic languages (symbol for a sound) were not yet invented during the Israelite captivity.

Akkadian remained the language of commerce until fall of the Babylonian Empire around 500 BC. It was the Persians who introduced Phoenetics into the mainstream.

It was after the Persians (who detested human sacrifice and whose religion, Zoroastrianism was monotheistic) that Israel stopped sacrificing humans and worshiping multiple Gods.

Google Zoroastrianism/Judaism . and you can find out much about the similarities between the two .. right down to the Creation story.

Isaiah claims that King Cyrus was annointed by God. It was the Israelites that adopted Persian customs .. and not the reverse.


Again, that isn't what I wrote nor the scriptures expressed. What do you know about genetics? that would answer your question. Remember the human race began with two people---not Eight(those eight were on the Ark.). There was a lapse of 100 years from the landing of the Ark to the scattering from the tower of Babel
.

I know enough about Genetics to know that from 8 people from the same family, you do not get countries full of Chinese, Blacks, South Americans, Europeans, Greeks, Egyptians, in a couple of decades.

NOt that tis matters because these cutures existed continuously before and after any possible Biblical dates for the flood.

The Scriptures do not say. But you and the doubling of 13 generations in 400 years proved that over 100 million persons was possible.


For the 5th time .. population growth does not work like that. Even if it did 13 Generations is at least 325 years using 25 years as a generation.

The second thing is that I started with a population of 10,000 !

First off .. if a couple has 2 children all they do is maintain the current population.
Every woman would have to have 4 kids to get a doubling.. then there could be no death .. lack of food and so forth.

Infant mortality rates in Ancient Egypt were 30%

This is ok for the first few Generations but as the populations grow the doubling is not sustainable.

8, 16, 32, 64, 128, 256, 512, 1024, 2048, 4096, 8192 = 11 Generations of doubling to get to 10,000 .. approx 225 years. To get to 1 million from 10,000 takes another 7 doublings.

18 Generations = 450 years.


SO??? The Flood was over by approx. 156 years when Sargon of Akkad started his empire. Again, plenty of time to populate the area.

The big problem with your theory is in the Old Kingdom in Egypt the population was already well over 1 million people in 2800 BC and there was no sudden stop and rebuilding.

Your math is flawed .. and the earliest Biblical date of the flood is around the same time as Sargon was wandering around conquering the already existing city states of Sumeria/mesopotamia... Cities that had already been in existence for over 1000 years in some cases.

In the case of the link I gave you .. Abraham is dated 1950 to 1750.

That puts the flood at 2350 at the earliest and as late as 2150.

Sargon was wandering the Earth in 2350 and as you can see from the above Math that even after 10 generations (250 years) of doubling after the Ark made ground there would only have been 8000 people on the earth.

This would put the Flood back to 2600 BC and even then there would not be eough people for Sargon to Conquer in 2350 BC ... nevermind the fact that there were thriving civilizations in Egypt , China, Africa, Europe and South America at that time.

How do you figure the South Americans made it to South America with a global population of roughly 8000 people ?

That is scriptural(Rom.1:18-23) and no different from that seen in the peoples of the world today

That you would quote writings of Paul in relation to the OT is truly amazing.
 

sincerly

Well-Known Member
Originally Posted by sincerly
That figure is a figment of your assumptions---I only stated as the scriptures indicated---"a mixed multitude" came out with the Israelites.

It was you that gave the figure of 1 million. Obviously if all of Egypt was estimated to be 2million that is half.

Why are you accusing me of the assumption that you were responsible for ?

No, I'm not responsible for your assumptions. Of the Israelites who went to Egypt with 70 individuals, they came out after 430 years----and I gave a low estimate of 1,000,000 persons---including the "mixed multitude.

Your doubling every 30 years is unrealistic for that period of time. Babies are born in nine months. Yes, there is dying and maturing to consider, but during the 430 years the Israelites alone could have reached 9,000,000+ million. (In 18 doublings of the original 70---every 23 years)

The Egyptian belief in God would have nothing to do with recording that 1/2 the population left ?

Again, I never indicated any figure for the Egyptians who were in that "mixed multitude" that was your assumption.

Do you believe that story that has been recorded throughout history is true ?

Why do you say things that you yourself do not believe.

Yes, I believe in the Creator GOD and not in the myth of evolution.
Who are you to tell me what I believe or don't believe???

What are you talking about ? It is the recorded events that I am referring to.

It is,also, recorded events which I have posted.

If a "Real God" had shown up .. parted the Red Sea and sent food from heaven .. there is no way these people would be looking for a new God a few weeks after Moses leaves.
Especially not his Brother Aaron.

Again, that is your assumption, but isn't the recorded events.

Of course I want things to "make sense" dont you ?

And those recorded events do make sense. It is your assumptions which are absurd. The present day Rebellions/denials are an attestation that those motivations are as alive today as they were at that time and place.------Rebellion and denial by the multitudes are still the name of the game.----It is seen as "seeming right" in their eyes.

That these people would "rebel" against a "REAL all powerfull God" is absolutely absurd.

The mental delusion some will go to to maintain their beliefs is amazing.

It still is the order of the day, "Ye shall be as gods". Forget the REAL GOD.

Speak for youself.

It was Aaron .. Moses's own brother that made the God. Even if we assume that after a short period of time the people "forgot" about this God or think that this God had abandoned them ..

There is no way once Moses (the conduit to all powerfull God) shows back up again that these people are going to Rebel.

You are completely ignoring human nature.

Ditto!

I have told you three times now that it is not about the math. It is about providing food, shelter, and water for 1 million wandering through the desert.

How many times do we have to go over this ? It is human to make a mistake .. however it is the fool who tries to maintain that mistake in the face of correction.

So, why do you?

As far as Magic .. which is what would have been required .. If God had been performing all these miraculous miracles then the people would not have ran to another God who had performed zero miracles only a few weeks after Moses left .. and they certainly would not have rebelled onces Moses came back.

The rebellion was previous to the return---and the making of the "calf".
GOD didn't do "magic", HE preformed miracles. as--water from a hard rock. Manna for 40 years.

I have no idea what you are talking about here ? What are all these names of God that were revealed.

400 years ? not sure where you get this number or what it refers to.

"EL" and "Jehovah". The period from Abraham and Moses- Ex.6:3

I have no idea what language God would have written on the stones ?
What do you think the language of the Israelites was ?

What ever was written on those stones which the Israelites would understand.

That you would quote writings of Paul in relation to the OT is truly amazing.

Since there was no NT at the time of Paul, It was only the Writings which were recorded as instructed by GOD at the time of Moses and the recordings of the events of the Israelite via the scribes and prophets under the direction of the HOLY SPIRIT which Paul referred to in his teaching and preaching.

Rom.1:18-23, "For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed [it] unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Because that, when they knew God, they glorified [him] not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things."
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
The Bible isn't just Chapter Two of Genesis. More details are seen of subjects in other places of the BIBLE.
In Luke, Jesus attests to seeing Satan cast out of heaven. In revelation, we are told of the "war in heaven" and Satan was cast out to earth. In JOB, Satan admits to "going to and fro in the earth and from walking up and down in it".
Just as Satan tempted JOB, So did he with Eve.

We are amused by a ventriloquist, but many deny that Satan could use a snake in deceiving Eve.( that wasn't the only time an animal was used to give a message to a human.)
Satan has made jack-***** out of many who are willing to speak his lies contradicting GOD.

I might agree, though it would expand this alleged topic of the garden.

But then again...there seems little intent in this thread to stay on topic.

Chapter Two, SHOULD be the focus of this thread.
Several participants are simply running around the burning bush,
hoping to drown the premise, with rhetoric in every direction.

Did God alter the course of Man?.....yeah.
Does Chapter Two make a brief description of that effort?....yeah.
Does it give enough detail to be beyond discussion?.....nay.

If the terms of Genesis were definitive.....we would have nothing to talk about.

But discussion is supposed to be focused.
And this thread is badly unraveled.
 

Oryonder

Active Member
Originally Posted by sincerly
Your doubling every 30 years is unrealistic for that period of time. Babies are born in nine months. Yes, there is dying and maturing to consider, but during the 430 years the Israelites alone could have reached 9,000,000+ million. (In 18 doublings of the original 70---every 23 years)
"

You are right .. because Populations did not double every 30 years.

Again, I never indicated any figure for the Egyptians who were in that "mixed multitude" that was your assumption.

It is not possible for 1 million, wandering in the desert to survive.

Yes, I believe in the Creator GOD and not in the myth of evolution.
Who are you to tell me what I believe or don't believe???

I had forgotten a word. What I meant to say was .. Do you believe that 'every" story recorded throughout history is true in response to the post below.

The recored events reveal that Aaron took a lot of molding by GOD to believe as did Moses.

Again, that is your assumption, but isn't the recorded events.

That God parted the Red Sea was not a recorded event ?


The rebellion was previous to the return---and the making of the "calf".
GOD didn't do "magic", HE preformed miracles. as--water from a hard rock. Manna for 40 years.

A miracle is "magic" .. regardless what difference does it make what term is used for "miracles" People that have witnessed a "Real God" do not act like the folks of Israel.

"EL" and "Jehovah". The period from Abraham and Moses- Ex.6:3

Jehovah is never given as a name.


What ever was written on those stones which the Israelites would understand.

Egyptian or Akkadian.

Since there was no NT at the time of Paul, It was only the Writings which were recorded as instructed by GOD at the time of Moses and the recordings of the events of the Israelite via the scribes and prophets under the direction of the HOLY SPIRIT which Paul referred to in his teaching and preaching.

What does Paul have to do with Moses or the language that he spoke ?
 

Oryonder

Active Member
So you say, therefore, your own conclusions---or a repeating of your man opinionated site.

My conclusions are at least based on reason and evidence.

There is no reason nor evidence that you have provided for yoru idea that the exodus was 1 million people.

There is all kinds of evidence for continuous civilizations which negates the Biblical flood story. These are not my conclusions but the conclusions of all legitimate archaeologists and historians.
 

outhouse

Atheistically
this is a very negative aspect of religion

people read into scripture and pull out what ever their imagination allows, just because ancient men used their imagination in mythology.

inthis case they are pulling out satan where there obviously was never a satan figure in a mythical garden.. Its why people go to church and have priest teach them. The common ignorant man doesnt have the faculties or knowledge to interpret scripture without help. taking a ignorant defiant stance not only gives religion a bad name but has a negative impact on society.


the worse thing is this severe ignorance makes people in the USA look stupid as we are one of the few countries that have a problem with this.
 
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