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How do Muslims know that the Quran hasn't changed?

ZooGirl02

Well-Known Member
Muslims say that the Quran is the same today as it has always been. However, I question this. From what I understand, during the very early history of Islam, one of the caliphs, Uthman, had all the copies of the Quran destroyed so that way new copies would be made that were standardized. Apparently this was because there were varying readings of the Quran due to the lack of diacritical marks. So anyway, how are we supposed to know that the new one that was issued was the same as the one that Muhammad supposedly received from the angel?
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
Muslims say that the Quran is the same today as it has always been. However, I question this. From what I understand, during the very early history of Islam, one of the caliphs, Uthman, had all the copies of the Quran destroyed so that way new copies would be made that were standardized. Apparently this was because there were varying readings of the Quran due to the lack of diacritical marks. So anyway, how are we supposed to know that the new one that was issued was the same as the one that Muhammad supposedly received from the angel?
Quran was not written or authored by Muhammad. ‎It was revealed word for word on the heart of Muhammad and from him his companions ‎learnt it by heart, and it was the Primary Security Method of Quran, right?

It is only a Secondary Security Method that it was also committed to ‎writing immediately, right?

The method of learning/committing to heart from person to person still continues, right?
It ‎started from Muhammad and continues to date, right?
As Muhammad received Quran from God Allah ‎YHWH, he let his companions know of it and it was immediately committed to memory ‎by his companions.

Right?, @ZooGirl02 !

Regards
 
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Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Salam

That was the excuse. There's been a war to separate Quran and Ahlulbayt (A). The hadiths were forbidden to be written for a while. So what people did was write some hadiths in commentaries of Quran. To put stop to those Quranic commentaries, Uthman collected them and forbid it too. This is what Imam Reda (a) shows was the true intention of Uthman in tufaqal Uqool in a debate about difference between family of Mohammad (s) and nation in Quran.
 

ZooGirl02

Well-Known Member
I want to thank you all for your replies, but none of them really answered my question. How do you know that you can still trust the Quran? How do you know that the Quran you have today is the original one revealed to Muhammad?
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I want to thank you all for your replies, but none of them really answered my question. How do you know that you can still trust the Quran? How do you know that the Quran you have today is the original one revealed to Muhammad?

Peace,

This an answer that is multilayered.

I know because Quran to be is proven to me to be divinely spoken by the nature of it's design. Words are so calculated and fined tuned with respect to each other, in a way, that doors open other doors, and the Quran augments significantly that the more knowledge and wisdom you gain, the more Quran is journeyed in a way that it become more clear and manifest in it's hidden nature, and it's doors cannot be unlocked without fear of God. I know because the Quran never appears to me the same as before. And I know because the sorcery tries to keep us veiled from it but the sorcery can be defeated through companionship and help of the holy guides it calls to.

I know because also I've witnessed so many subtle signs of it that show eloquence and calculated speech beyond humans, some of it I can put to words and others I cannot.

And I know because even just sound wise, nothing sounds better, no matter how much humans can try. It's rhythm is also melodically calculated to the extent no one can replicate.

If someone wants to say sure humans cannot do it, but Genies/Jinn/Aliens can, then let them bring a book similar to it from their forces of aliens/genies/jinn. They won't be able to even if the humans and Jinn support and help one another in this regard.
 

ZooGirl02

Well-Known Member
Peace,

This an answer that is multilayered.

I know because Quran to be is proven to me to be divinely spoken by the nature of it's design. Words are so calculated and fined tuned with respect to each other, in a way, that doors open other doors, and the Quran augments significantly that the more knowledge and wisdom you gain, the more Quran is journeyed in a way that it become more clear and manifest in it's hidden nature, and it's doors cannot be unlocked without fear of God. I know because the Quran never appears to me the same as before. And I know because the sorcery tries to keep us veiled from it but the sorcery can be defeated through companionship and help of the holy guides it calls to.

I know because also I've witnessed so many subtle signs of it that show eloquence and calculated speech beyond humans, some of it I can put to words and others I cannot.

And I know because even just sound wise, nothing sounds better, no matter how much humans can try. It's rhythm is also melodically calculated to the extent no one can replicate.

If someone wants to say sure humans cannot do it, but Genies/Jinn/Aliens can, then let them bring a book similar to it from their forces of aliens/genies/jinn. They won't be able to even if the humans and Jinn support and help one another in this regard.

Are you saying that you trust the Quran because you believe it is a literary masterpiece?
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Are you saying that you trust the Quran because you believe it is a literary masterpiece?
That's one of the reasons and way to phrase it but keep in mind the gap between literary masterpieces and revelation from God is huge, just as powers from Sulaiman (a) vs sorcerers there is no comparison.

But this is not the only thing I stated. It's magical morphism where it ascends to whole new spiritual and majestic levels with dark magic being defeated with respect to that through the holy companions on the journey and guides to God it calls to is my biggest reason.

That has to begin with fear of God. If a soul will NOT FEAR God, the Quran becomes MORE AMBIGOUS OVER TIME and THE PERSON BECOMES FURTHER FROM THE BOOK.

The more we fear God, the more glorious Quran becomes, and more it's journeyed with knowledge from the Sunnah and hadiths of Ahlulbayt (a) as well, the more manifest it becomes as the hidden of it becomes outward, and there is more to be journeyed.

It morphs. The Quran does not appear the same. To dark hearts, they get further into ambiguities while the believers who understand build on clear signs and it changes so drastically for them, that a little of it appears the same as they were introduced to.
 

Dimi95

Прaвославие!
That's one of the reasons and way to phrase it but keep in mind the gap between literary masterpieces and revelation from God is huge, just as powers from Sulaiman (a) vs sorcerers there is no comparison.

But this is not the only thing I stated. It's magical morphism where it ascends to whole new spiritual and majestic levels with dark magic being defeated with respect to that through the holy companions on the journey and guides to God it calls to is my biggest reason.

That has to begin with fear of God. If a soul will NOT FEAR God, the Quran becomes MORE AMBIGOUS OVER TIME and THE PERSON BECOMES FURTHER FROM THE BOOK.

The more we fear God, the more glorious Quran becomes, and more it's journeyed with knowledge from the Sunnah and hadiths of Ahlulbayt (a) as well, the more manifest it becomes as the hidden of it becomes outward, and there is more to be journeyed.

It morphs. The Quran does not appear the same. To dark hearts, they get further into ambiguities while the believers who understand build on clear signs and it changes so drastically for them, that a little of it appears the same as they were introduced to.
You are using it as primal cause to submition.

I get the point , but you are eliminating the side-effects of it.What is after?
What does men do , when he learns life threw fear?
You must take circumstences that not everybody understand the message as it is.

Why do we need fear so we can acknowledge higher authority?

It becomes forcefull , by what you say..
 

dybmh

ויהי מבדיל בין מים למים
What does men do , when he learns life threw fear?

Why do we need fear so we can acknowledge higher authority?

Not directed to me, but, I have thought a lot about this, so, maybe this is useful? I hope so.

Fear is assumed to be a negative emotion, but, it is in fact useful beyond self protection. Fear is very close to excitement. People love horror movies. People love roller-coasters. ( Hopefully you know this word in english? roller-coaster? see below: )

Screenshot_20230823_133815.jpg

When a person cultivates fear, their heart is pounding, time slows down, it's a real experience outside the normal. Also, fear is humbling. The person's ego shrinks. This makes room for the divine, figuratively, so divinity can be recieved. If a person can do this when studying a divinely inspired text, it is useful for getting more out of the text. Maybe a simple way to think of it? The ego gets in the way sometimes, and cultivating fear is a remedy for this.

Some people replace the word for fear with awe when talking about it. I don't like to do this, I think it minimizes the potential for impact on the individual's study and/or practice.
 

Dimi95

Прaвославие!
Not directed to me, but, I have thought a lot about this, so, maybe this is useful? I hope so.

Fear is assumed to be a negative emotion, but, it is in fact useful beyond self protection. Fear is very close to excitement. People love horror movies. People love roller-coasters. ( Hopefully you know this word in english? roller-coaster? see below: )

View attachment 81189

When a person cultivates fear, their heart is pounding, time slows down, it's a real experience outside the normal. Also, fear is humbling. The person's ego shrinks. This makes room for the divine, figuratively, so divinity can be recieved. If a person can do this when studying a divinely inspired text, it is useful for getting more out of the text. Maybe a simple way to think of it? The ego gets in the way sometimes, and cultivating fear is a remedy for this.

Some people replace the word for fear with awe when talking about it. I don't like to do this, I think it minimizes the potential for impact on the invididual's study and/or practice.
I ackowledge that , but you are missing the importance of the side-effects.

"Fear stifles our thinking and actions. It creates indecisiveness that results in stagnation.Talented people procrastinate indefinitely rather than risk failure. Lost opportunities cause erosion of confidence, and the downward spiral begins.
Fear can drive people to destructive habits. To numb the pain of overbearing distress and foreboding, some turn to things like drugs and alcohol for artificial relief.
Fear steals peace and contentment. When we're always afraid, our life becomes centered on pessimism and gloom."

I think it's fair enough to point this things , would you not agree?
 

dybmh

ויהי מבדיל בין מים למים
I ackowledge that , but you are missing the importance of the side-effects.

"Fear stifles our thinking and actions. It creates indecisiveness that results in stagnation.Talented people procrastinate indefinitely rather than risk failure. Lost opportunities cause erosion of confidence, and the downward spiral begins.
Fear can drive people to destructive habits. To numb the pain of overbearing distress and foreboding, some turn to things like drugs and alcohol for artificial relief.
Fear steals peace and contentment. When we're always afraid, our life becomes centered on pessimism and gloom."

I think it's fair enough to point this things , would you not agree?

Yes, I definitely agree. From my point of view almost everything that exists can be applied for good or for not-good. Being afraid of God seems approriate to me. I try to always apply it for the good, like everything else. Although, my feelings about God are not limited to fear, of course.

Maybe these negative side-effects are produced when fear is excessive, out of balance, or in isolation of other emotions?
 

Dimi95

Прaвославие!
Yes, I definitely agree. From my point of view almost everything that exists can be applied for good or for not-good. Being afraid of God seems approriate to me. I try to always apply it for the good, like everything else. Although, my feelings about God are not limited to fear, of course.
Everybody does not have the same mindset of accepting things that way , that sort of details are crucial for choosing in what we should belive.
 

dybmh

ויהי מבדיל בין מים למים
Everybody does not have the same mindset of accepting things that way , that sort of details are crucial for choosing in what we should belive.

Hopefully I have explained one way in which 'fear' can be used to facilitate a deeper experience when engaging with a divinely inspired text and how it can be enriching in a person's relationship with God? Fear of God is a concept which is written about in scripture, so, maybe it's good to have an idea, maybe, how that idea can be applied in a positive way.

Everyone's different; everyone has different talents, flaws, affinities and aversions. Because of this I am grateful there are multiple ways for people to be religious in their own way and on their own terms. For me, I appreciate engaging in a comprehensive manner, and that includes fear.
 

Dimi95

Прaвославие!

Hopefully I have explained one way in which 'fear' can be used to facilitate a deeper experience when engaging with a divinely inspired text and how it can be enriching in a person's relationship with God? Fear of God is a concept which is written about in scripture, so, maybe it's good to have an idea, maybe, how that idea can be applied in a positive way.

Everyone's different; everyone has different talents, flaws, affinities and aversions. Because of this I am grateful there are multiple ways for people to be religious in their own way and on their own terms. For me, I appreciate engaging in a comprehensive manner, and that includes fear.
Agree

But then we go to the idea of one true God and everything falls in deep water.
Because we claim what we claim and we are where we are..
When we say "for ALL" , we must consider that not everybody can find the good in the bad.
Another important thing is our essence of sin
 

dybmh

ויהי מבדיל בין מים למים
Agree

But then we go to the idea of one true God and everything falls in deep water.
Because we claim what we claim and we are where we are..
When we say "for ALL" , we must consider that not everybody can find the good in the bad.
Another important thing is our essence of sin

For me, the idea of "one true God" means that it would be God for those who cannot find, and also for those who choose not look, just as much as it would be God for those who have found, and for those who are seeking. Each individual's capabilities and desires wouldn't change the concept.

Yes, sin is an important idea.
 

Dimi95

Прaвославие!
For me, the idea of "one true God" means that it would be God for those who cannot find, and also for those who choose not look, just as much as it would be God for those who have found, and for those who are seeking. Each individual's capabilities and desires wouldn't change the concept.

Yes, sin is an important idea.
Yes , i'm glad you mentioned it.
But what happens with that cathegory of people? Do they not deserve guidence because they don't understand it like us ?
If we speak about these things , we must consider that God who is above all thinks about all of us , not just specific groups.
At the end , he is All..
We are all equal in this life and we take our reward after.When we take the message as you explained , we consider ourselfs morally obligated to share it.
And that's where the problem start.
We think that everybody can apsorb information and knowledge like us , and sadly the reality is different.

Happy to share toughts with you , i like your last messege - it has moral standard.
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Why do we need fear so we can acknowledge higher authority?

It becomes forcefull , by what you say..
Peace,

I think human existence was not always planned by God. It was plan B, if the first sentient beings needed it. First, Jinn were Angels, all of them, not all God's close or chosen Angels, but they were saints, and Angel's definition is a saintly Jinn.

I think the first plan was these creatures were tuned and created in a world very close to God's reality, even their nature makes ascending to God very easy and makes God very easy to see. The Ahlulbayt back than didn't know they would become humans either.

Then the Angels became a bit to full of themselves. Their worship lacked humility and love it was more self-centered into themselves and they adored their own beings as worshipers of God almost as much as they adored God.

They're worship was become more and more vain, and so God came with a plan. The plan was to put the Authorities in volatile race where things can go wrong, and even bloodshed spilled by the volatile and vulnerable nature of the beings, and Angels all thought it was bad plan. But God told them he knows what they do not.

He created Adam and taught him knowledge higher than what Angels had, and made him the only means by which they can attain that knowledge.

Up to this point, there was no threat of hell for anyone. And if Angels enjoined each other sincerity and not self-praise, we might all have been created as Angels.

Then as you know Iblis refused to submit to God through Adam and prostrate to him. Then God intervened and asked him, what prevented him. Iblis instead of acknowledging his fault, sought to justify his action. Only way to justify is to disbelieve in God and his signs at this point. No one would dispute God's knowledge, but Iblis said he was better, so he doesn't believe in God nor the voice talking to him is of God at this point. So he disbelieved in God's signs after believing. Then asked for respite and when given it, as a final warning, God told him of hell. But he was too arrogant to even turn back to God then.

When Adam was warned, he wished deeply to be God's favorite and closest and highest, and so craved the authority that is everlasting and the position of the everlasting authority. So he too convinced himself Iblis was telling the truth, and forgot what he knew, due to his wish to become of the exalted ones (Ahlulbayt).

But the difference is when Adam noticed he deviated, he stopped himself quickly. He repented, and changed coursed. This means that his chosen status was not all diminished by Iblis' deceptions.

But there was further dispute as a result in the high council, and the spirits whether to become Jinn or Human, were are all confused. God then promised a guidance would come from him and there is temporary life we will have on earth.

Because God is hidden, and there are consequences in becoming like Iblis, he sent warnings through his Messengers.

The reality of hell is a destination that becomes unavoidable consequence of evil actions if we don't change and are not saved by God and his chosen, in regards to them.

Actions good and bad take on living form. Bad actions can consume us and make us blind and in darkness forever. God is the light of those consumed and surrounded by darkness to, but as a dim far away star.

From what I understand, fear of God when God is hidden, means we acknowledge our own fault, and see our evil, and see we are worthy of his wrath when we sin, and so this love trying to protect us (self-love perspective) and also acknowledge God's justice while he is hidden (love of God and his right to punish and his beautiful side of both mercy and wrath perspective).

Fear of God in Prophets because they know they are going to paradise, takes on a different form. They fear more so for people.

Quran at first can generate a lot of self-fear. In the long run, it makes you more worried for others. Empathy is a strong connection we all have, and mathematically it is correct to value others like you value yourself. If you fear hell for yourself, you should fear it for others.

The Quran emphasizes a lot that God is feared in regards to the hidden, that we don't perceive his hidden judgment fully. But we this belief in the hidden is praised.

People who hate God out of lust towards evil desires and the world, easily can do two things:

(1) Deny his Personality
(2) Deny the Creator's Existence all together

Yet, believers instead of letting lust they followed take over their souls so much so they justify it and deny God's right to punish their evil, acknowledge God's right to punish but attempt to change.

When they change, they hope for increase in blessings and proximity. When they hope, they act. When they act, they attain, and then they become lovers of God appreciating him.

However, even though they would have no worry with regards to themselves at this point, they fear regarding others. They also do not expose their purity and station with God, because, it's between them and God and they are not chosen Messengers that need to prove their purity through proofs.

The sign of their state is in their preaching. You can tell they act on what they preach despite them trying to hide their inward states of proximity to God and not claim it. The believers who follow and love God recognize each other through this.

Fear once attained to proximity of God becomes a guard that keeps the soul from deviating from the path knowing what they have with God is better then anything the world has to offer. But that fear begins to pale for personal as deviation becomes near impossible with more good deeds creating barriers of light protection. So the only fear that remains like their hope is through empathy, they fear for others.

Fearing and worrying for others is not easy, but it's while we can do something. When it's all over, the grief and severe sadness will change to laughter hysterically, and people will be at peace with the results as there is nothing that can be done, but accept God's judgment and justice at this point.

Grief will end eventually, but is very good in this world, because it means empathy and love is in the heart and it's not hardened.
 

Dimi95

Прaвославие!
@
Peace,

I think human existence was not always planned by God. It was plan B, if the first sentient beings needed it. First, Jinn were Angels, all of them, not all God's close or chosen Angels, but they were saints, and Angel's definition is a saintly Jinn.

I think the first plan was these creatures were tuned and created in a world very close to God's reality, even their nature makes ascending to God very easy and makes God very easy to see. The Ahlulbayt back than didn't know they would become humans either.

Then the Angels became a bit to full of themselves. Their worship lacked humility and love it was more self-centered into themselves and they adored their own beings as worshipers of God almost as much as they adored God.

They're worship was become more and more vain, and so God came with a plan. The plan was to put the Authorities in volatile race where things can go wrong, and even bloodshed spilled by the volatile and vulnerable nature of the beings, and Angels all thought it was bad plan. But God told them he knows what they do not.

He created Adam and taught him knowledge higher than what Angels had, and made him the only means by which they can attain that knowledge.

Up to this point, there was no threat of hell for anyone. And if Angels enjoined each other sincerity and not self-praise, we might all have been created as Angels.

Then as you know Iblis refused to submit to God through Adam and prostrate to him. Then God intervened and asked him, what prevented him. Iblis instead of acknowledging his fault, sought to justify his action. Only way to justify is to disbelieve in God and his signs at this point. No one would dispute God's knowledge, but Iblis said he was better, so he doesn't believe in God nor the voice talking to him is of God at this point. So he disbelieved in God's signs after believing. Then asked for respite and when given it, as a final warning, God told him of hell. But he was too arrogant to even turn back to God then.

When Adam was warned, he wished deeply to be God's favorite and closest and highest, and so craved the authority that is everlasting and the position of the everlasting authority. So he too convinced himself Iblis was telling the truth, and forgot what he knew, due to his wish to become of the exalted ones (Ahlulbayt).

But the difference is when Adam noticed he deviated, he stopped himself quickly. He repented, and changed coursed. This means that his chosen status was not all diminished by Iblis' deceptions.

But there was further dispute as a result in the high council, and the spirits whether to become Jinn or Human, were are all confused. God then promised a guidance would come from him and there is temporary life we will have on earth.

Because God is hidden, and there are consequences in becoming like Iblis, he sent warnings through his Messengers.

The reality of hell is a destination that becomes unavoidable consequence of evil actions if we don't change and are not saved by God and his chosen, in regards to them.

Actions good and bad take on living form. Bad actions can consume us and make us blind and in darkness forever. God is the light of those consumed and surrounded by darkness to, but as a dim far away star.

From what I understand, fear of God when God is hidden, means we acknowledge our own fault, and see our evil, and see we are worthy of his wrath when we sin, and so this love trying to protect us (self-love perspective) and also acknowledge God's justice while he is hidden (love of God and his right to punish and his beautiful side of both mercy and wrath perspective).

Fear of God in Prophets because they know they are going to paradise, takes on a different form. They fear more so for people.

Quran at first can generate a lot of self-fear. In the long run, it makes you more worried for others. Empathy is a strong connection we all have, and mathematically it is correct to value others like you value yourself. If you fear hell for yourself, you should fear it for others.

The Quran emphasizes a lot that God is feared in regards to the hidden, that we don't perceive his hidden judgment fully. But we this belief in the hidden is praised.

People who hate God out of lust towards evil desires and the world, easily can do two things:

(1) Deny his Personality
(2) Deny the Creator's Existence all together

Yet, believers instead of letting lust they followed take over their souls so much so they justify it and deny God's right to punish their evil, acknowledge God's right to punish but attempt to change.

When they change, they hope for increase in blessings and proximity. When they hope, they act. When they act, they attain, and then they become lovers of God appreciating him.

However, even though they would have no worry with regards to themselves at this point, they fear regarding others. They also do not expose their purity and station with God, because, it's between them and God and they are not chosen Messengers that need to prove their purity through proofs.

The sign of their state is in their preaching. You can tell they act on what they preach despite them trying to hide their inward states of proximity to God and not claim it. The believers who follow and love God recognize each other through this.

Fear once attained to proximity of God becomes a guard that keeps the soul from deviating from the path knowing what they have with God is better then anything the world has to offer. But that fear begins to pale for personal as deviation becomes near impossible with more good deeds creating barriers of light protection. So the only fear that remains like their hope is through empathy, they fear for others.

Fearing and worrying for others is not easy, but it's while we can do something. When it's all over, the grief and severe sadness will change to laughter hysterically, and people will be at peace with the results as there is nothing that can be done, but accept God's judgment and justice at this point.

Grief will end eventually, but is very good in this world, because it means empathy and love is in the heart and it's not hardened.
Peace be on you also

Intresting perspective , acceptable.
I would add and change some things in it to be better with my understanding of faith , but i will leave it for another time.
Thank you for taking the time to explain it.

I wanted also to ask you something else , i see that you know what you are talking.
I don't want to question your reason in what you belive, because i saw in your previous post the answer.
What do you think of the last words , specificly the last verses and how much impact they have on what we as belivers say, divine revelation?
How good do you know pre-Islamic and post-Islamic period in Arabia?
By post i meant the next 200-300 years.
 
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InvestigateTruth

Veteran Member
Muslims say that the Quran is the same today as it has always been. However, I question this. From what I understand, during the very early history of Islam, one of the caliphs, Uthman, had all the copies of the Quran destroyed so that way new copies would be made that were standardized. Apparently this was because there were varying readings of the Quran due to the lack of diacritical marks. So anyway, how are we supposed to know that the new one that was issued was the same as the one that Muhammad supposedly received from the angel?
It is just a belief. It cannot be scientifically proven.
 
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