Maybe you meant many people instead of literally everybody?
I have no idea of what my indigenous culture would be, for one.
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How do you feel about Universalists? (Non-Asatruar welcome)
- Thread starter Zephyr
- Start date
Maybe you meant many people instead of literally everybody?
I have no idea of what my indigenous culture would be, for one.
We've a pretty good idea about our family origins, at least genealogically speaking; so going back in the past 300 years my "indigenous culture(s)" includes (in no particular order):
People from all of the British Isles
People from the Southwestern German-speaking regions
People from the German Lowlands (Hesse, Denmark, the Netherlands, etc)
People of Norse background
People from Northern areas of France
People Native to North America
People Native to sub-Shaharan Africa
We strongly suspect also North African, and possibly Southwest Asia--although those may be further back than 300 years.
Going to get DNA testing done to perhaps confirm the tales and records of our ancestors.
So, which ethnic background should be predominant?
@LuisDantas
Everybody comes from indigenous tribal traditions, one way or another. If you're white, you're indigenous ancestry probably lies in either Italic, Hellenic, Celtic, Germanic or Slavic heritage, which by the way all were, at least at one point, tribal peoples who believed things not that dissimilar to the Native Americans.
Celts, which were the people of Gaul and Spain (before the Germanic peoples migrated there and Rome took it over) and the British Isles (again before the Germanic peoples came in). They believed in a wide variety of gods and even different pantheons. Gaul had deities such as Cernunnos and Ireland had deities such as Brigid, Danu and Dagda and Wales had deities such as Morrigan.
The Germanic Peoples were the peoples of Northern Europe who migrated throughout Europe, including France by the Franks, Poland, Italy and Spain by the Goths, Russia, Scandinavia and Iceland by the Vikings, Germany and central Europe by the Teutons and Britain by the Anglos, Saxons and Jutes. They were more similar to each other in their deities, even though the names highly varied, and their worldview. Some of their deities were Thor, Odin, Frey, Freya, Frigga and Tyr. Some tribes had local deities such as the English tribes and Eostre, who may be related to Freya. Then there's Zisa, in Germany, who may be the unnamed wife of Tyr, as her name is an etymological double of his German name Ziu.
The Greeks and Romans also were at one point more tribal and weren't as empire focused. Their gods, Jupiter, Hera, Venus, Saturn etc. were all worshiped by shamans and animistic peoples.
I have to admit, I don't know much about the Slavic people, but they're a tribal people too.
These gods didn't just come up as gods of an imperialistic society. They were tribal gods, spirits and powers
Everybody comes from indigenous tribal traditions, one way or another. If you're white, you're indigenous ancestry probably lies in either Italic, Hellenic, Celtic, Germanic or Slavic heritage, which by the way all were, at least at one point, tribal peoples who believed things not that dissimilar to the Native Americans.
Celts, which were the people of Gaul and Spain (before the Germanic peoples migrated there and Rome took it over) and the British Isles (again before the Germanic peoples came in). They believed in a wide variety of gods and even different pantheons. Gaul had deities such as Cernunnos and Ireland had deities such as Brigid, Danu and Dagda and Wales had deities such as Morrigan.
The Germanic Peoples were the peoples of Northern Europe who migrated throughout Europe, including France by the Franks, Poland, Italy and Spain by the Goths, Russia, Scandinavia and Iceland by the Vikings, Germany and central Europe by the Teutons and Britain by the Anglos, Saxons and Jutes. They were more similar to each other in their deities, even though the names highly varied, and their worldview. Some of their deities were Thor, Odin, Frey, Freya, Frigga and Tyr. Some tribes had local deities such as the English tribes and Eostre, who may be related to Freya. Then there's Zisa, in Germany, who may be the unnamed wife of Tyr, as her name is an etymological double of his German name Ziu.
The Greeks and Romans also were at one point more tribal and weren't as empire focused. Their gods, Jupiter, Hera, Venus, Saturn etc. were all worshiped by shamans and animistic peoples.
I have to admit, I don't know much about the Slavic people, but they're a tribal people too.
These gods didn't just come up as gods of an imperialistic society. They were tribal gods, spirits and powers
I always had this fear of adopting Germanic Heathenry because of all the silly and quite modern issues with "race" and ancestry, which only started in the 19th century Romantic revivalist movement. I'm half-black and my skin is brown so there's this fear that I won't be accepted, even though I do have a lot of Germanic (and Celtic) ancestry and I have the right to explore, celebrate and be a part of that, just as I have the right to explore, celebrate and be a part of my non-white ancestry (I have an interest in Vodoun but I don't think I'll ever practice it; funnily enough, I know a white Brit who happily practices Vodoun and I never thought to judge him for it!).
It's like, what about mixed people, like me? Are we supposed to be forever outcast by all "sides" of our ancestry because we don't neatly fit in anywhere? Much of it has to do with the culture you were raised in and identify with. I was raised by my white mother and never really had much to do with black culture, unfortunately. My mom tried to give me a balance, but it is what it is. I have experienced racism from both blacks and whites. It is difficult when you are obviously mixed to find a place where you belong. But those who judge on that basis are complete hypocrites because there is no such thing as "purity" in these matters. Many of them aren't even native Europeans. They are Americans, for example. So what gives them the right to decide who is an Asatruar or not? Asatruar in Iceland, from where we get most of the Lore of the Germanic peoples, tend to be very progressive and completely denounce any form of racism, "folkish"views and are accepting of LGBT people. So what gives these mutts from places like America and Australia the right to create boundaries when the actual maintainers of the culture we admire say no to it?
I also notice that, of all the European revival religions, the Norse way is the one that is most often caught up in bickering over this matter. It happens in Slavic Polytheism too, because they have a huge problem with neo-Nazis in Eastern Europe. I don't see Hellenic Polytheists fighting over this, for example.
Anyway, my view is that if you have ancestors from the ethnic tradition you're following, I don't see the problem, no matter how mixed you are or what color you are. Most of it has to do with the culture you most closely identify with. After all, when we hail our ancestors, all of us are going to be hailing ancestors who weren't Germanic or had fair skin since all peoples evolved out of dark-skinned Africans. So no one has the right to judge me because it just so happens that some of the ancestors I hail are more recently non-white. There's no evidence that the pre-Christian Germanic people were racists and obsessed with "purity". That's a modern notion and it stems from imperialism and colonialism. What business do we have lending credence to such things? That is antithetical to the Germanic spirit of freedom and autonomy that I hope that we aspire to.
So I'm somewhere in the middle, but closer to universalism. They tend to have the best historical research and are the most serious about spirituality in the first place. The racists and the folkish types tend to put spirituality on the back burner and sacrifice it on the altar of their political agenda. They miss the point and are bastardizing the tradition and dishonoring themselves and their ancestors.
It's like, what about mixed people, like me? Are we supposed to be forever outcast by all "sides" of our ancestry because we don't neatly fit in anywhere? Much of it has to do with the culture you were raised in and identify with. I was raised by my white mother and never really had much to do with black culture, unfortunately. My mom tried to give me a balance, but it is what it is. I have experienced racism from both blacks and whites. It is difficult when you are obviously mixed to find a place where you belong. But those who judge on that basis are complete hypocrites because there is no such thing as "purity" in these matters. Many of them aren't even native Europeans. They are Americans, for example. So what gives them the right to decide who is an Asatruar or not? Asatruar in Iceland, from where we get most of the Lore of the Germanic peoples, tend to be very progressive and completely denounce any form of racism, "folkish"views and are accepting of LGBT people. So what gives these mutts from places like America and Australia the right to create boundaries when the actual maintainers of the culture we admire say no to it?
I also notice that, of all the European revival religions, the Norse way is the one that is most often caught up in bickering over this matter. It happens in Slavic Polytheism too, because they have a huge problem with neo-Nazis in Eastern Europe. I don't see Hellenic Polytheists fighting over this, for example.
Anyway, my view is that if you have ancestors from the ethnic tradition you're following, I don't see the problem, no matter how mixed you are or what color you are. Most of it has to do with the culture you most closely identify with. After all, when we hail our ancestors, all of us are going to be hailing ancestors who weren't Germanic or had fair skin since all peoples evolved out of dark-skinned Africans. So no one has the right to judge me because it just so happens that some of the ancestors I hail are more recently non-white. There's no evidence that the pre-Christian Germanic people were racists and obsessed with "purity". That's a modern notion and it stems from imperialism and colonialism. What business do we have lending credence to such things? That is antithetical to the Germanic spirit of freedom and autonomy that I hope that we aspire to.
So I'm somewhere in the middle, but closer to universalism. They tend to have the best historical research and are the most serious about spirituality in the first place. The racists and the folkish types tend to put spirituality on the back burner and sacrifice it on the altar of their political agenda. They miss the point and are bastardizing the tradition and dishonoring themselves and their ancestors.
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I'm not a universalist myself, but neither am I folkist. I'm a pluralist.
The OP made a comparison to a "European becoming a Sioux." I find this comparison invalid, because "European" refers to someone who is either native to, or has a lot of ancestry in, the continent of Europe(not exactly a small or even remotely homogeneous place). This can include someone who was born in Europe, but whose parents or grandparents may have immigrated from elsewhere (though different countries may have different views on that). A more appropriate equivalent might be a Suebi becoming a Sioux. Thing is, those Tribes basically don't exist anymore. The days of European Tribalism are, let's face it, dead.
I don't know what Tribes I'm descended from. I know I have dominant ancestry in Ireland, England, and Greece. But that's not narrow enough; Ireland and England alone had dozens of Tribes, and I'm likely descended from all of them. Not including the Migration Age mixing everything up so much that who knows the degree to which I have French, Scandinavian, Dutch, and German? To say nothing of how much Roman I may have. That's not even getting into being Greek.
Therefore, I chose instead to focus on cultural and linguistic ancestry, in terms of the path I follow. I speak English, which is a Germanic language. I was born and raised in the US, which is culturally descended from England, and by extension the Tribes that have lived there over the eons. The songs and stories I grew up on were primarily rooted in Celto-Germanic folklore; I wasn't really introduced to Greek lore until I was older (in the form of Disney's Hercules.)
Besides, blood is irrelevant. Loki and Odin were from different Tribes, and yet were Blood Brothers. Vanir became Aesir and Aesir became Vanir. Today, as far as I'm concerned, family is not relevant to blood, but to relationship. Because of my upbringing, I have a closer relationship to English culture than I do Irish or Greek culture, even though I probably have that least of the three.
Different strokes for different folks? Remember that the word "Tribe" is Latin-rooted. The Germanic word for the same general concept was "Folk". Northern European Folks were not homogenous, tied only loosely by a few linguistic roots (not just Celtic or Germanic), and a loose pan-culture. Different Folks had different customs, stories, songs, and variations on the Lore. None of them could be declared "correct." Likewise, today, I do not believe Universal Asatru can be considered "wrong." Different groups can choose to be universalist, folkist, pluralist, or something else entirely.
The OP made a comparison to a "European becoming a Sioux." I find this comparison invalid, because "European" refers to someone who is either native to, or has a lot of ancestry in, the continent of Europe(not exactly a small or even remotely homogeneous place). This can include someone who was born in Europe, but whose parents or grandparents may have immigrated from elsewhere (though different countries may have different views on that). A more appropriate equivalent might be a Suebi becoming a Sioux. Thing is, those Tribes basically don't exist anymore. The days of European Tribalism are, let's face it, dead.
I don't know what Tribes I'm descended from. I know I have dominant ancestry in Ireland, England, and Greece. But that's not narrow enough; Ireland and England alone had dozens of Tribes, and I'm likely descended from all of them. Not including the Migration Age mixing everything up so much that who knows the degree to which I have French, Scandinavian, Dutch, and German? To say nothing of how much Roman I may have. That's not even getting into being Greek.
Therefore, I chose instead to focus on cultural and linguistic ancestry, in terms of the path I follow. I speak English, which is a Germanic language. I was born and raised in the US, which is culturally descended from England, and by extension the Tribes that have lived there over the eons. The songs and stories I grew up on were primarily rooted in Celto-Germanic folklore; I wasn't really introduced to Greek lore until I was older (in the form of Disney's Hercules.)
Besides, blood is irrelevant. Loki and Odin were from different Tribes, and yet were Blood Brothers. Vanir became Aesir and Aesir became Vanir. Today, as far as I'm concerned, family is not relevant to blood, but to relationship. Because of my upbringing, I have a closer relationship to English culture than I do Irish or Greek culture, even though I probably have that least of the three.
Different strokes for different folks? Remember that the word "Tribe" is Latin-rooted. The Germanic word for the same general concept was "Folk". Northern European Folks were not homogenous, tied only loosely by a few linguistic roots (not just Celtic or Germanic), and a loose pan-culture. Different Folks had different customs, stories, songs, and variations on the Lore. None of them could be declared "correct." Likewise, today, I do not believe Universal Asatru can be considered "wrong." Different groups can choose to be universalist, folkist, pluralist, or something else entirely.
I'm inclined to agree with this. I'm a universalist to the extent that everyone's religion is right for them. I recently read that was the approach the Norse took... you have your gods, I have mine, and it's all good.
Truth be told, I found the o.p. highly elitist, exclusivist, even verging on racist.
We've discussed this before... it was true then and it's true now. I really don't know who or what I am, but I want to know. I do want to have an identity beyond that of my grandparents being laborers in southern Italy and Sicily. That is, I do not believe we have predominately Roman (who came from the east) blood.
I never gave this consideration until you mentioned it once before, and imo it is indeed valid. Our laws are based on Germanic laws, not Roman or Greek. So whether I have Germanic, Slavic, Italian or whatever blood (I'm still doing that DNA test
), because I speak a Germanic language and live in a country founded primarily by Germanics, the substrate of my culture is Germanic, not Italian or Mediterranean. This may sound like I'm trying to talk myself into being Germanic, but it's simply to point out how invalid the o.p.'s position is.
Much of this obsession about ethnicity is a modern invention due to 19th century Romantic Nationalist influence on native Germanic revivalism and not something that existed among pre-Christian European peoples. It's not worth worrying about and you'll drive yourself mad trying to come up with exact percentages of what your heritage is. You go with what your heart tells you.
Yes, and not only Germanic. Much of it also comes from the dividing up of what was once the European empires, which spanned large geographic areas... the Holy Roman Empire; the Prussian Empire; Austria-Hungary; the Byzantine Empire (OK, largely eastern Mediterranean and Asian). Fledgling states scrambled to establish themselves as individual entities and nationalities. If you asked a Serb what language he spoke, he'd say Serbian; if you asked a Croat what language he spoke, he'd say Croatian. Guess what... it's all the same language.
Well, since we're discussing Germanic ancestry cred...my maternal great-grandparents were from Heidelberg, Germany. They were big, blond German folk. So there's that, and also Danish and Dutch ancestry on my mom's side. Oh, and my last name is embarrassingly English.
I've been joking that I might be the world's shortest Viking if my ancestors were indeed Germanic and/or Norman (who were Norse anyway). Nuh uh... the average height for a male Norse was... drumroll please... 5'6" - 5'7". I am about 5'5" (OK, after hanging all night by the neck, I might go 5'4 3/4"
I've been joking that I might be the world's shortest Viking if my ancestors were indeed Germanic and/or Norman (who were Norse anyway). Nuh uh... the average height for a male Norse was... drumroll please... 5'6" - 5'7". I am about 5'5" (OK, after hanging all night by the neck, I might go 5'4 3/4"
Hahaha! I'm about 5'6" or 5'5". Cheers, brother!
Manlets Unite!
Triumphant_Loser
Libertarian Egalitarian
Isn't religion about believing a set of religious dogmas to be true? If they believe Asatru to be true, what is wrong with them practicing it?
The o.p. hasn't posted in almost 5 years, but I think this is a good subject to keep alive, especially for people (lurkers) who are drawn to Heathenry but are put off by comments like the o.p.
Sees
Dragonslayer
If religion = traditional Christianity or maybe sects of Islam
Most religion is more about how you live and general alignment with principles and ideals than specifics of detailed belief like dogmas.
The problem is Christians and cultural Christians trying to compartmentalize religion and spirituality based off their dogmatic, belief-based traditions.
Sees
Dragonslayer
Manlets Unite!
Hobbits?
Most people in my family are under 5'11"...my grandfather and I are the freaky ones. He was 6'3" and I'm right at 6'2".
Tru dat. And while Asatru does mean faithful to the gods, it's really the code of living that is what's faithful to the gods. If Odin did not want us to know the values of honesty, sacrifice for the greater good, and hospitality, I don't think he would have permitted it to be known that he regretted stealing the 3 cauldrons of mead; that he gave his eye so he could learn and share wisdom; and that he regretted treating Loki as inhospitably as he did.
Hobbits?
Most people in my family are under 5'11"...my grandfather and I are the freaky ones. He was 6'3" and I'm right at 6'2".
Pretty much.
Men and Elves were about 6' (Elves a little taller). Dwarves about 4'.
Triumphant_Loser
Libertarian Egalitarian
If religion = traditional Christianity or maybe sects of Islam
Most religion is more about how you live and general alignment with principles and ideals than specifics of detailed belief like dogmas.
The problem is Christians and cultural Christians trying to compartmentalize religion and spirituality based off their dogmatic, belief-based traditions.
So, you are not required to actually believe in the gods in order to be Asatru? If not, why even practice it? (Wow... that sounded a lot less rude in my head, sorry.
)
Sees
Dragonslayer
So, you are not required to actually believe in the gods in order to be Asatru? If not, why even practice it? (Wow... that sounded a lot less rude in my head, sorry.
It's rare to discuss but there are people who are basically Atheistic Ásatrúar or Philosophical Ásatrúar...belief in Gods in itself is very broad and no two people could have or will have the same perceptions, conceptions, etc. concerning theology. Some see them as ancient ancestors who rose up to divinity, some as powerful spirits, some as multiple male and female replacements for Sunday school Jehovah, some as individual personifications of mysterious, divine energy, some as psychological archetypes....
Main thing that matters is how you celebrate and share life and your focus, values, etc. aligning with the old traditional ways. There is multiple strains past and current, each location and land and tribe and clan and family having a different flavor of Ásatrú (modern name) to varying degrees. There are atheists in the sagas...nobody would care much if they lived well.