how does a christian understand the bible?

[waitasec]

Good guide. I have seen the Bible twisted and made an evil book by those wishing to push their agenda. I would add to your post saying that after the 4 things you mentioned that the intent of the reader is a big thing.

for the record, i don't have an agenda to twist anything. reaching a logical conclusion is just that, no agenda.
if one is going to twist the bible for an illogical agenda, racism as you pointed out, that is clearly not based on reasonable logic but based on prejudice.
my purpose for pointing out the inconsistencies of the bible is just that, to point out the illogical inconsistencies by using the bible against itself in the most logical and reasonable way i know how not based on any biases, for it was when i began to study the bible from the point of view that it was the word of god that i came to understanding the bible is illogical.

A person can read the Bible and come up with some twisted things when that is their intent. I gave my daughter and example of this. I told her that if I were in the Klan I could easily twist the Bible to control an immature and uneducated person (in the Lord) to make them believe in seperation of races. I could show them where God separated us and made us all different. From there I could go to the rules of war and Judges to justify murdering a Black man and raping his wife and daughter in the name of the Lord.

The Intent of the reader is very important and Familiarity of scripture is important for anyone that is a Christian. I have told my daughter to question everything and look for other instances in the Bible concerning similar situations.

I have taught her to use the concordance and accompanying Bible word dictionary/lexicon. I do not want her falling for blatant lies.

So what I am saying is don't just use one liners because chapter and verse were simply put in there for reference. Taking a verse out of context is a vary dangerous thing.

Study the Bible to learn read the Bible to relax.

well if were to learn anything from history this is a very dangerous stance.

 

[Archer]

for the record, i don't have an agenda to twist anything. reaching a logical conclusion is just that, no agenda.
if one is going to twist the bible for an illogical agenda, racism as you pointed out, that is clearly not based on reasonable logic but based on prejudice.
my purpose for pointing out the inconsistencies of the bible is just that, to point out the illogical inconsistencies by using the bible against itself in the most logical and reasonable way i know how not based on any biases, for it was when i began to study the bible from the point of view that it was the word of god that i came to understanding the bible is illogical.



well if were to learn anything from history this is a very dangerous stance.

Oh no I was not speaking of you I was speaking of a lot of organized religious or should I say Churches and some denominations.

The one thing that I think is missing from all of this is the Calvinist doctrine. The what and why to it are a bit to swallow but some are incapable of believing. I don't want to go into things but Omnipotent, Omniscient and Omnipresent are used to describe a God and we are simply corporeal beings that can not even grasp and control our emotions much less infinity of eternity. Hell most scientists believe the expanse of the universe is limited thought this mindset is as changing slowly. Instead of the "the" term "our" is being used to describe this universe.

I bring this up because if Gods knowledge and wisdom being as such the end has already happened and the beginning is yet to come. Those who are allowed to believe have already done so. People say how can a god know these things? Because they have always been and the beginning and end are one.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

lets talk

How did Jesus understand the Bible?

According to Scripture by age 12 Jesus already had a well-rounded biblical education because the could intelligently converse with the spiritually older men .
Jesus often prefaced his statements with the words : "it is written".
That would mean written in the Hebrew Scriptures.

So, Christians can understand the Bible in the same way Jesus did by referring back to already existing Scripture as their source material.
By topic or subject arrangement one can check corresponding or parallel accounts or verses along the same line of thought.

For example: Many are familiar with the verse about the meek will inherit the earth. Jesus was referring to an old Psalm. At Psalm 37vs11,29 not only does it say the meek will inherit the earth it goes on to say those righteous one will possess it forever.

So, Christians can be like the people of Acts 17vs11,27 who searched the Scriptures each day to see if what they are learning is really so, or really found in Scripture.

 

[waitasec]

How did Jesus understand the Bible?

According to Scripture by age 12 Jesus already had a well-rounded biblical education because the could intelligently converse with the spiritually older men .
Jesus often prefaced his statements with the words : "it is written".
That would mean written in the Hebrew Scriptures.

are you referring to the tanakh?

So, Christians can understand the Bible in the same way Jesus did by referring back to already existing Scripture as their source material.
By topic or subject arrangement one can check corresponding or parallel accounts or verses along the same line of thought.

how so if they do not have the tanakh, well 99.5% of them at least?

For example: Many are familiar with the verse about the meek will inherit the earth. Jesus was referring to an old Psalm. At Psalm 37vs11,29 not only does it say the meek will inherit the earth it goes on to say those righteous one will possess it forever.

these are nice teachings that do not prove a thing about the bible being the word of god. i understand that as simply saying those who are honest and humble will have a sense of self dignity

how about the teaching, do unto others as you would have them do unto you?
this is a very nice way to live, i agree with this wholeheartedly, however, it seems this is not looked at close enough because there are christian believers out there that actually think their inalienable rights are subjected to be voted on... would you want someone to vote on your right to use your left hand because that is your innate preference?

i am all for teachings that improve the way we treat each other and ourselves these wise sayings come from everywhere, so i still don't understand why one would use these teachings as a sign that it's gods word.
otherwise there would only be one religion and one way of interpreting god.

So, Christians can be like the people of Acts 17vs11,27 who searched the Scriptures each day to see if what they are learning is really so, or really found in Scripture.

from the tanakh perhaps, but then they would find many more contradictions about the origins of christianity.

 

[Civil Shephard]

but isn't the bible supposed to be the eternal word? so why would somethings be understood as a metaphor and others not? for instance, the creation story?
many believe it is literal and others do not...
or the stories where god condones genocide, slavery, human trafficking, rape...
are those to be taken literal or not?

You know... those portions of scripture where God is being described that way are something I've always had a hard time with meself. But I'm no bible scholar... sorry. I was being a bit tongue in cheek with the comment you're responding to. I can only say that I don't believe in the bible as an infallible God in a box. I rather believe in it as folks giving their impression of our Creator from several different vantage points. I don't think everything in the bible accurately portrays God. But I do believe in the validity of most scripture as for my part it is spiritually explained by the immortal words of Jesus. However I don't think I could explain adequately in words the real life reasons blessing ones enemy holds such power. I live in South Central Los Angeles and I've been in the lions cage... where things got literal real quick. But the Lord delivered me from the mouths of the young lions... just cause I asked.

 

[waitasec]

Oh no I was not speaking of you I was speaking of a lot of organized religious or should I say Churches and some denominations.

The one thing that I think is missing from all of this is the Calvinist doctrine. The what and why to it are a bit to swallow but some are incapable of believing. I don't want to go into things but Omnipotent, Omniscient and Omnipresent are used to describe a God and we are simply corporeal beings that can not even grasp and control our emotions much less infinity of eternity. Hell most scientists believe the expanse of the universe is limited thought this mindset is as changing slowly. Instead of the "the" term "our" is being used to describe this universe.

I bring this up because if Gods knowledge and wisdom being as such the end has already happened and the beginning is yet to come. Those who are allowed to believe have already done so. People say how can a god know these things? Because they have always been and the beginning and end are one.

i didn't think you were referring to me. but when i read that i thought i should make my intentions clear.

i wouldn't use the word corporeal exclusively, although i agree with the gist of what you said. however, we do have the ability to grasp the metaphysical and quantum physics within our reasoning to a limited extent, very limited.

this maybe a bit off topic...but i think this point does apply if you bear with me.
if we were to agree that science is the search for empirical truth by the use of the scientific method to weed out the biases, then why is faith constantly at odds with it?
from what i understand being skeptical means being free from the boundaries of fear. do you know what i mean? so, why the fear of skepticism if faith is about having truth? some believers, like yourself, are not afraid to skeptical however, there are more people of the opinion that the bible can never be the subject of skepticism. i wonder if that is because they fear doubt and where doubt could lead them to as if doubt would lead them to a lie...

i have been feeding these feral cats for sometime now and from what i noticed is that the hungry ones are the more fearful. the cats that are less fearful of me walk right up to me when i have their food and the fearful ones run off and hide until i leave or i'm far enough away for them to feel safe, meanwhile the the fearless kitties are eating their food... go figure

 

[waitasec]

You know... those portions of scripture where God is being described that way are something I've always had a hard time with meself. But I'm no bible scholar... sorry. I was being a bit tongue in cheek with the comment you're responding to. I can only say that I don't believe in the bible as an infallible God in a box. I rather believe in it as folks giving their impression of our Creator from several different vantage points. I don't think everything in the bible accurately portrays God. But I do believe in the validity of most scripture as for my part it is spiritually explained by the immortal words of Jesus. However I don't think I could explain adequately in words the real life reasons blessing ones enemy holds such power. I live in South Central Los Angeles and I've been in the lions cage... where things got literal real quick. But the Lord delivered me from the mouths of the young lions... just cause I asked.

i find that to be very agreeable.
thank you for sharing.

 

[starlite]

the religious organization you belong to...but can you see not everyone believes the same as you? that is the point i am making.

My purpose in wording my post as I did was an acknowledgment of the fact that others do not believe as I do.

 

[starlite]

.
where god condones genocide, slavery, human trafficking, rape...

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]

God never approved of rape. Rape is a major crime in God’s eyes. Under the Mosaic Law, a man who raped a woman was to die. Deuteronomy 22:25, 26 states 25 “If, however, it is in the field that the man found the girl who was engaged, and the man grabbed hold of her and lay down with her, the man who lay down with her must also die by himself, 26 and to the girl you must do nothing. The girl has no sin deserving of death, because just as when a man rises up against his fellowman and indeed murders him, even a soul, so it is with this case.[/FONT]

 

[Archer]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]

God never approved of rape. Rape is a major crime in God’s eyes. Under the Mosaic Law, a man who raped a woman was to die. Deuteronomy 22:25, 26 states 25 “If, however, it is in the field that the man found the girl who was engaged, and the man grabbed hold of her and lay down with her, the man who lay down with her must also die by himself, 26 and to the girl you must do nothing. The girl has no sin deserving of death, because just as when a man rises up against his fellowman and indeed murders him, even a soul, so it is with this case.[/FONT]

I think the post was in reference to what people believe. Killing all the males and taking the women was not rape but what else does it say? They have been taken now what do you do with them? They would be hostile toward you so other than an hostile slave which no body wants the only other use is breeding stock.

I am not saying that is what happened but look at Judges 21:15 The people grieved for Benjamin, because the LORD had made a gap in the tribes of Israel. 16 And the elders of the assembly said, “With the women of Benjamin destroyed, how shall we provide wives for the men who are left? 17 The Benjamite survivors must have heirs,” they said, “so that a tribe of Israel will not be wiped out. 18 We can’t give them our daughters as wives, since we Israelites have taken this oath: ‘Cursed be anyone who gives a wife to a Benjamite.’ 19 But look, there is the annual festival of the LORD in Shiloh, which lies north of Bethel, east of the road that goes from Bethel to Shechem, and south of Lebonah.” 20 So they instructed the Benjamites, saying, “Go and hide in the vineyards 21 and watch. When the young women of Shiloh come out to join in the dancing, rush from the vineyards and each of you seize one of them to be your wife. Then return to the land of Benjamin. 22 When their fathers or brothers complain to us, we will say to them, ‘Do us the favor of helping them, because we did not get wives for them during the war. You will not be guilty of breaking your oath because you did not give your daughters to them.’”
23 So that is what the Benjamites did. While the young women were dancing, each man caught one and carried her off to be his wife. Then they returned to their inheritance and rebuilt the towns and settled in them.



Would any woman want to be taken and forced into marriage (other than some countries where it is the way of things)? By our standards today these are war crimes and rape.


I also believe the lesson taught is not meant to condone rape but rather teach people not to allow cultures to die. It was not about taking the women it was about giving the tribe a fighting chance and the ability to carry on. Some see it as an excuse to rape while missing the point of the story which is survival of culture.

 

[waitasec]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]

God never approved of rape. Rape is a major crime in God’s eyes. Under the Mosaic Law, a man who raped a woman was to die. Deuteronomy 22:25, 26 states 25 “If, however, it is in the field that the man found the girl who was engaged, and the man grabbed hold of her and lay down with her, the man who lay down with her must also die by himself, 26 and to the girl you must do nothing. The girl has no sin deserving of death, because just as when a man rises up against his fellowman and indeed murders him, even a soul, so it is with this case.[/FONT]

well there is reference to raping a woman in Dt 22:28-29 and if she was the property of another man the rapist is to be killed however if she wasn't, the rapist is to pay the victims father 50 pieces of silver and marry her...so yes rape was condoned if the girl was not pledged to another man...
what about genocide and slavery or human trafficking? doesn't those things 'cause some sort of conflict within your reasoning?

 

[Crown College ofthe Bible]

Orly

im laughing so hard its hard to type.

Please give an example of how you believe the Bible is not straitfoward.

 

[waitasec]

Please give an example of how you believe the Bible is not straitfoward.

jesus never condemned slavery or homosexuality. he didn't speak out against the notion that women were second class citizens. the good samaritan story would have made more sense if it were the jew helping the samaritan instead.
when healing the sick, he never educated people on how to protect them from diseases. for example, giving them the knowledge of how to create these antibiotics; dapsone, rifampin and clofazimine for the prevention of leprosy. jesus was god so surely he knew we would figure it out eventually but let the ones he didn't have a chance to heal suffer anyways.



but i think outhouse was really commenting on your unintended mis-spelling of the word orally

 

[Kathryn]

This thread is degenerating.

 

[Civil Shephard]

As a Christian, if a non Christian asked me the best way to understand the bible, I would say "Start by reading the New Testament all the way through." It's really not that hard - and I'd encourage them to skip out on Revelations the first time or two that they read through the New Testament - can always come back to it later.

Then I would say, start reading through the Old Testament, and you can skip the "begats" and all those directions about how to build the temple if you want as well, for now. Read the "story" books first, I'd say - then Proverbs, Psalms, and Ecclesiastes, Song of Solomon, the story of Ruth - these very human stories and timeless words of wisdom should ring true to most people, regardless of religious beliefs.

Get to know the historical context and the audience the words were originally intended for.

That's enough for starters. Once you've done all that, it's time to dig deeper.

Hey Kathryn!

I like that answer to the threads original question or aim. I say much the same thing except I go with the Gospel of John then Matthew, Mark and Luke approach.

I think however the question of understanding the bible is secondary to understanding our Creator God through the accounts written in the bible. Or at least I'm biased enough to actually believe the bible is a good way to seek out who and what God is. When I meet truly humble people who follow Christ without the hinderance of wanting an intellectual understanding I have found their EQ much preferrable to my IQ but anywho...

Hey waitasec,

who started this thread? Or I mean as a statment "waitasec who started this thread" I believe you do want to understand why we Christians believe in Christ given the many glaring and difficult passages contained in the Bible. I respect that because the OT portion of the bible really does come on with a Marine styled "kill um all let god sort them out" approach. For my part I notice the love of God inserted into many OT stories that can be missed... I believe these hidden highlights point to the fact that there are very few who actually believe and trust in the love and mercy of our creator I AM.

Perhaps a thread of this sort with a more specific aim. I believe it's hard to take the whole bible and make accurate generalizations without perhaps exploring particular Characters like say... Moses. I can explain why I believe Moses was a man of God and why I believe the events in his life recorded in Scripture point to a very gentle and humble man surrounded by folks who didn't really want to understand the love and mercy of our creator.

 

[waitasec]

This thread is degenerating.

perhaps you might not have not seen my response;

With common sense. When you read the bible, take into consideration the following:

1. Literary style

2. Historical setting

3. Intended audience

4. Original language

That's a good start in determining whether a book or passage is intended to be taken literally or figuratively - or whether or not it applies to your particular situation.

even within the boundaries of what we call christian faith there are disagreements between the sects based on this criteria.
for instance, are you aware that the OT in your bible is not the same as the tanakh? and this is the supposed to be the basis for the christian faith.
how do you interpret the book of mormon for instance. christians believe the bible is complete and do not accept the book of mormon, why not?
the NT is the same thing to the tanakh as the the book of mormon is to the NT...for mormons. so why make that judgement call as the general understanding of the book of mormon?
please don't say your are not here to judge others beliefs, if this is what one believes, they already have judged others beliefs...
i'm not trying to put words in your mouth, can you deny the majority of the people who are followers of the NT exclusively believe this?

 

[waitasec]

Hey waitasec,

who started this thread? Or I mean as a statment "waitasec who started this thread" I believe you do want to understand why we Christians believe in Christ given the many glaring and difficult passages contained in the Bible. I respect that because the OT portion of the bible really does come on with a Marine styled "kill um all let god sort them out" approach. For my part I notice the love of God inserted into many OT stories that can be missed... I believe these hidden highlights point to the fact that there are very few who actually believe and trust in the love and mercy of our creator I AM.

emphasis by me;
well it's hard for me to see how anyone can say the god of the bible is a god of love or is benevolent. the love that you see is the love given to those who have reciprocated by means of faith. here in lies the funny thing about this religion;
jesus said, love your enemies, why then did god create a place, for those who do not believe in him, as a place of eternal torment? that's not loving your enemy it's a retaliation. don't you find humanity in that concept. from my point of view, this ideal of the god in the bible was a humanistic creation.

Perhaps a thread of this sort with a more specific aim. I believe it's hard to take the whole bible and make accurate generalizations without perhaps exploring particular Characters like say... Moses. I can explain why I believe Moses was a man of God and why I believe the events in his life recorded in Scripture point to a very gentle and humble man surrounded by folks who didn't really want to understand the love and mercy of our creator.

the fact that there are so many different ways people understand the bible goes to show that "spiritual truth" is subjective truth. if god were true, then the need for a religious faith would not be required.

 

[Civil Shephard]

the fact that there are so many different ways people understand the bible goes to show that "spiritual truth" is subjective truth. if god were true, then the need for a religious faith would not be required.

Well... for my part and perhaps heretical by some standards I believe that there is a truth in our universe that transcends the sign on the door. As I've tried to communicate in this forum and others in the past there are those who know our Creator God and who do not have a specific faith. I believe that Paul points to such a justification when he says in Romans 2 14 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.) 16 This will take place on the day when God judges people’s secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares. (New International Version, ©2010)

That is but one verse that for my part points to a faith of heart over and above a faith given to technicalities. I believe in the story of the Roman Centurian of whose faith Jesus in Matthew 8 says, “Truly I tell you, I have not found anyone in Israel with such great faith. 11 I say to you that many will come from the east and the west, and will take their places at the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven. 12 But the subjects of the kingdom will be thrown outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”

For my part there are many warnings in the bible of chosing faith by association over a faith that pleases God. So to me I find your questions to be valid and take no offense at them. It's like the first time I heard a teacher say "the only stupid question is the question you don't ask"...

 

[waitasec]

Well... for my part and perhaps heretical by some standards I believe that there is a truth in our universe that transcends the sign on the door. As I've tried to communicate in this forum and others in the past there are those who know our Creator God and who do not have a specific faith. I believe that Paul points to such a justification when he says in Romans 2 14 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.) 16 This will take place on the day when God judges people’s secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares. (New International Version, ©2010)

That is but one verse that for my part points to a faith of heart over and above a faith given to technicalities. I believe in the story of the Roman Centurian of whose faith Jesus in Matthew 8 says, “Truly I tell you, I have not found anyone in Israel with such great faith. 11 I say to you that many will come from the east and the west, and will take their places at the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven. 12 But the subjects of the kingdom will be thrown outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”

For my part there are many warnings in the bible of chosing faith by association over a faith that pleases God. So to me I find your questions to be valid and take no offense at them. It's like the first time I heard a teacher say "the only stupid question is the question you don't ask"...

i appreciate that. however, the attributes we place on god is ultimately our attributes. everyone lives under some sort of law, that's obvious and i think what paul was referring to was perhaps the common understanding of morality. if you were to look at our species, we need to have a sense of empathy otherwise we would not survive.
and this is when our understanding of god comes to play when paul says,
"This will take place on the day when God judges people’s secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares."
why would god care? really. why is faith in him required. and even within certain faiths there is a criteria to be fulfilled, why?
i am a decent good hearted person. i am honest and straightforward. i have empathy for those that are less fortunate, and i try the best i can without riding on some ones curtails. isn't that what it's about? doing the best you can with a sense of integrity and self respect and dignity? why does god have to be in the sequential array of life? sure, he may be the uncaused cause but do you really think that giving him the attribute of needing or wanting our faith in it would really make any difference?

 

[Civil Shephard]

i appreciate that. however, the attributes we place on god is ultimately our attributes. everyone lives under some sort of law, that's obvious and i think what paul was referring to was perhaps the common understanding of morality. if you were to look at our species, we need to have a sense of empathy otherwise we would not survive.
and this is when our understanding of god comes to play when paul says,
"This will take place on the day when God judges people’s secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares."
why would god care? really. why is faith in him required. and even within certain faiths there is a criteria to be fulfilled, why?
i am a decent good hearted person. i am honest and straightforward. i have empathy for those that are less fortunate, and i try the best i can without riding on some ones curtails. isn't that what it's about? doing the best you can with a sense of integrity and self respect and dignity? why does god have to be in the sequential array of life? sure, he may be the uncaused cause but do you really think that giving him the attribute of needing or wanting our faith in it would really make any difference?

I do think it's about good old fashioned friendliness. But I don't think we can easily ignore the fact that some folks allow themselve to do and say things to folks out an evil heart. These folks affect others in ways that are not good and some even make this life hell on earth for others. I think that's why God cares... he wants us to get along with eachother and also get along with him for an ultimate society in heaven. I believe we exsist with this purpose and that Gods concern isn't so much for technical criteria but for the values you mention. My only addition would be that a seeking for ultimate truth be a value... as I like to joke with a friend who doesn't believe in absolute truth I asked if she believed that absolutely.