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How does your faith rationalize god allowing the existence of evil, death, and suffering?

Jabar

“Strive always to excel in virtue and truth.”
In Scripture, all angels are sons of God - Genesis 6:2; Genesis 6:4 Job 1:6; Job 2:1 <- for example
Only Jesus is called as God's only-begotten Son. That is because the pre-human heavenly Jesus was considered as first born in the heavens - Colossians 1:15; Revelation 3:14 B.
In Scripture, there are humans who are considered as ' adopted ' sons of God - Romans 8:14
That would make those humans then as being a ' brother ' (spiritual brother) of Jesus - Matthew 25:40 - they have a first or earlier resurrection to heaven - Revelation 20:6; 2:10

Because God gave Jesus the power of the resurrection - Revelation 1:18 - then Jesus is given the title of being ' everlasting father '- Isaiah 9:6
Since Jesus will do physical resurrecting during his 1,000-year governmental rulership over Earth, then Jesus will be ' father ' ( life giver ) to Moses, Abraham, David, etc. when Jesus resurrects them back to happy-and-healthy sound physical life on Earth with the opportunity to live forever on an Earth free from sickness and death.
- Isaiah 25:8; Isaiah 33:24; 1 Corinthians 15:24-46; Revelation 21:4-5.

Brother you know this begotten is an interpolation, a concoction, and fabrication.

It was thrown out of the Bible because 33 CHRISTIAN SCHOLARS of the highest eminence said it was a interpolation, concoction, and fabrication.

Son Of God, is a reference to Prophets and such like believers who follow the commandments.

Jesus was never born in heavens. Adam was.

Now if you are to say Jesus is literally the Son Of God because he was born without male intervention that would make Adam a greater Son Of God in your perspective as he was born without a mother or father, same with Eve but as a greater child of God, daughter.

Now do you think it is logical?

Nope.

:)
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
Earth will be enough?

Please notice Psalms 115:16 that God gifted Earth to mankind.
God's original purpose at Genesis 1:28 is that we all be descendants from father Adam and mother Eve.
We were to fill ( populate ) the Earth until it is populated or full. Not overfilled or overpopulated.
We Now have to wait until the new books or new scrolls are opened - Revelation 20:12 - to find out what happens beyond Jesus' millennial rulership over Earth.
If Earth is Not enough, then surely the universe is BIG enough to support more human life.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
Brother you know this begotten is an interpolation, a concoction, and fabrication.
It was thrown out of the Bible because 33 CHRISTIAN SCHOLARS of the highest eminence said it was a interpolation, concoction, and fabrication.
Son Of God, is a reference to Prophets and such like believers who follow the commandments.
Jesus was never born in heavens. Adam was.
Now if you are to say Jesus is literally the Son Of God because he was born without male intervention that would make Adam a greater Son Of God in your perspective as he was born without a mother or father, same with Eve.
Now do you think it is logical?
Nope.
:)

First born in the heavens - Colossians 1:15 - Not meaning like a physical human birth, but that God as Father gave him life first before all other creation.- Revelation 3:14 B
Since Adam was created from the dust of the ground, and ' returned ' to the dust of the ground - Genesis 2:7; Genesis 3:19 - then Adam started right here on Earth.
How can a person ' return ' to a place he never was before ?
Adam simply ' returned ' to where he started - Genesis 3:19
 

Jabar

“Strive always to excel in virtue and truth.”
First born in the heavens - Colossians 1:15 - Not meaning like a physical human birth, but that God as Father gave him life first before all other creation.- Revelation 3:14 B
Since Adam was created from the dust of the ground, and ' returned ' to the dust of the ground - Genesis 2:7; Genesis 3:19 - then Adam started right here on Earth.
How can a person ' return ' to a place he never was before ?
Adam simply ' returned ' to where he started - Genesis 3:19

No, i believe that is not what it is saying.

Colossians 1:15:

Actually, it is saying that Jesus was the first and last in his commandments and law of God Whatever he taught, had to be followed. It is not literally saying he was the first. In fact other verses say he was the last, so does that mean he is literally? NO! So, you see? Besides, there were many Prophets before Jesus and even his mother, how could he be the first???

IF that is not the case, then this is describing God himself.
Revelation 3:14:

Ruler does not mean he was first. But he spread the message and commandment as the dominant force of truth.

Keep in mind i do not believe in everything the Bible is saying right now. Allah made him in heaven, then he ate the fruit and was sent to earth and was a Prophet. In the Quran it says he will be brought to Earth not that he will be returned to dust of that ground.

He never had a punishment just removed from kingdom of heaven since God is All-Merciful, and Adam never experienced Satan trying to trick him.


:)
 
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anonymous9887

bible reader
When you say things are bad what do you mean?
Bad for who?

Thats two questions please.
Bad is all the negative things going on around us and the rebellious attitude towards mankind and god, natural disasters and such. The bad is bad for all. All mankind is suffering in one way or another or faces serious trials.
I will give you a better answer now that I have time. In another post.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
Oops, sorry I was Not more clear. Please notice the word ' day ' at Genesis 2:17

but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will certainly die. - Genesis 2:17 (TNIV)

You know why there is no "DAY" in that? The word for day is Yowm. In the day is beyowm. That means when, not an epoch of time.

If Day is a 1000 years, then Genesis 1:14 calls a day Hayyowm. One day with day and night.

And God said, “Let there be lights in the vault of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark seasons and days and years, Genesis 1:14.

Also look at the same Beyowm as Genesis 2:17 here

For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil

You quoted Psalms to mean a day in the bible is a thousand years.

A thousand years in your sight are like a day that has just gone by, or like a watch in the night

Its like a day, not is a day. It is also like a 'watch in the night'. Why have you picked only the day part?
Also, the word there is "keyowm" that means like a day or as a day. Check out the immediate next word. Its "Yesterday" which is in hebrews "etmowl" which is part of speech. Is that yesterday a 1000 years backwards?

Mate, we have eyes and everyone can study the bible. Know how the language works. If I pull out all the occurance of "day" in the bible its gonna be havoc.

Understand the language. Not learn Hebrew, I mean understand how the language works.

Also, Man was made on the 6th day. Did he not live beyond the 7th day? No, it is after the seventh day that he ate the fruit and the hullabaloo happened. Thus, if a day is 1000, he would have already lived a 1000 years for the 7th day to end.

Mate, let me candidly say that this is nonsense.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
Bad is all the negative things going on around us and the rebellious attitude towards mankind and god, natural disasters and such. The bad is bad for all. All mankind is suffering in one way or another or faces serious trials.
I will give you a better answer now that I have time. In another post.

So you are saying that because of ones action, a little child suffers and dies. Ill tell you what mate, lets just end this discussion. I cant see any point. You cannot answer any proper question.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
First born in the heavens - Colossians 1:15 - Not meaning like a physical human birth, but that God as Father gave him life first before all other creation.- Revelation 3:14 B
Since Adam was created from the dust of the ground, and ' returned ' to the dust of the ground - Genesis 2:7; Genesis 3:19 - then Adam started right here on Earth.
How can a person ' return ' to a place he never was before ?
Adam simply ' returned ' to where he started - Genesis 3:19

Do you know, that if Jesus is first born, Ephraim is also first born? So is Israel!

First born = Prototokos (Koine Greek)
Ephraim = Israel = Jesus (All Protokos)

You serious?
 

Jabar

“Strive always to excel in virtue and truth.”
Do you know, that if Jesus is first born, Ephraim is also first born? So is Israel!

First born = Prototokos (Koine Greek)
Ephraim = Israel = Jesus (All Protokos)

You serious?

Exactly, this is what i am saying.

:)
 

anonymous9887

bible reader
So you are saying that because of ones action, a little child suffers and dies. Ill tell you what mate, lets just end this discussion. I cant see any point. You cannot answer any proper question.
Ok first of all my phones Internet connection sucks.
2nd a takes a long time to type from my phone which is why I stay brief.
But here is an explanation.

Who is the ruler of the world?
Obviously we would both agree that God is the Sovereign.
1. The bible tells us who really rules the world.
1 John 5:19
2 Corinthians 4:4
John 14:30
Luke 4:6
Revelation 12:9

Now the question is why does god allow Satan to rule?
1. Genesis 3:1-5 this is vital for doctrine. God is the creator and sovereign of the universe and this is his creation so he has the right to rule, I'm sure you agree.
2. Satan in Genesis 3:4 he basically is calling the Sovereign of the universe a liar.
So 2 things were done:
- he called god a liar.
- he challenged gods right to rule. Remember everything god made was good genesis 1:31. So by challenging the perfect men he is challenging that what god created or the way god is doing things is wrong. Otherwise provide another explanation as to why.

3. So god had 2 options:
- destroy Satan and that will be the end of that, but that would leave Satan's challenge unanswered leaving room for future rebellion or
- by letting Satan remain god gives a time to prove satan a liar and that's why Jesus is so vital because he being the 2 perfect man or 3rd perfect person has answered Satan's challenge of a perfect man being able to remain faithful to god. Once Satan's challenge is answered once it will be answered for all time.

So god proving Satan a liar and showing that gods way is best, is why he allowed Satan to remain.

How do we know Satan thought that a man would not remain faithful?
Job 2:4 a man will give anything in exchange for his life.
Revelation 12:10 the accuser(satan) of our brothers has been hurled down who accuses them night and day.

What kind of power does Satan have?
Job 1:15 attacked using ungodly people
Job 1:16 fire from heaven (which they "thought" was from god)
Job 1:17 again influenced human beings
Job 1:19 he used natural disasters
Job 1:17 infirmities were used.
All these things people thought were from god, but it was Satan the whole time accusing him and people today.
Also Job could not answer the charge fully because he was not perfect.

which is why Jesus was essential
1. Jesus remained perfect without sin (1 Peter 2:22-24) Jesus came to fulfill the law Matthew 5:17
2. A perfect man fulfilling gods law proves Satan a liar to this charge Job 2:4
3. We not being perfect cannot prove this charge because we don't have the capacity, but Jesus was perfect paid for our sins Romans 5:12,18
4. Jesus did so much for us.

so in a nut shell:
1. God intentionally creates everything good.
2. God is not responsible for evil or suffering, it is our own actions, and satan is the ruler of this world.
3. Satan challenged gods rulership and called god a liar. So 2 scenarios to handle the situation.
4. God does not try nor does he himself try anyone.
 

anonymous9887

bible reader
Do you know, that if Jesus is first born, Ephraim is also first born? So is Israel!

First born = Prototokos (Koine Greek)
Ephraim = Israel = Jesus (All Protokos)

You serious?
Well if you read Ephraim it has a context.

If you read colossians 1:15 it is talking about the creation account so firstborn meaning firstborn is within context.
 

anonymous9887

bible reader
No, i believe that is not what it is saying.

Colossians 1:15:

Actually, it is saying that Jesus was the first and last in his commandments and law of God Whatever he taught, had to be followed. It is not literally saying he was the first. In fact other verses say he was the last, so does that mean he is literally? NO! So, you see? Besides, there were many Prophets before Jesus and even his mother, how could he be the first???

IF that is not the case, then this is describing God himself.
Revelation 3:14:

Ruler does not mean he was first. But he spread the message and commandment as the dominant force of truth.

Keep in mind i do not believe in everything the Bible is saying right now. Allah made him in heaven, then he ate the fruit and was sent to earth and was a Prophet. In the Quran it says he will be brought to Earth not that he will be returned to dust of that ground.

He never had a punishment just removed from kingdom of heaven since God is All-Merciful, and Adam never experienced Satan trying to trick him.


:)
Colossians 1:15 Jesus was and is the first and only creation created directly by god.

Jesus in John chapter 8:58 says before abraham was I am (or have existed)

Jesus existed before the incarnation.

God created all things through Jesus.
John 1:9,10
Simple
 

Jabar

“Strive always to excel in virtue and truth.”
Colossians 1:15 Jesus was and is the first and only creation created directly by god.

Jesus in John chapter 8:58 says before abraham was I am (or have existed)

Jesus existed before the incarnation.

God created all things through Jesus.
John 1:9,10
Simple

But if Jesus existed before?

What about Moses writing the Law and about Jesus.

You are now saying Jesus is God incarnate?

I thought you did not believe in the incarnation?
 

Jabar

“Strive always to excel in virtue and truth.”
Colossians 1:15 Jesus was and is the first and only creation created directly by god.

Jesus in John chapter 8:58 says before abraham was I am (or have existed)

Jesus existed before the incarnation.

God created all things through Jesus.
John 1:9,10
Simple

Abraham is not the first human.

Adam is.

:)
 

anonymous9887

bible reader
But if Jesus existed before?

What about Moses writing the Law and about Jesus.

You are now saying Jesus is God incarnate?

I thought you did not believe in the incarnation?
Ok here is the thing.
Jesus is not god.
- God created Jesus colossians 1:15 context creation. Revelation 3:14.
- God created all things through Jesus. God is the main planner. We can see this delegation in genesis 1:26
- Jesus was a spirit creature(angelic being)
- Jesus emptied himself and became human. philippians 2:6
- Jesus is the 2nd highest name in the universe. Only YHWH is higher than Jesus.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
Colossians 1:15 Jesus was and is the first and only creation created directly by god.

Jesus in John chapter 8:58 says before abraham was I am (or have existed)

Jesus existed before the incarnation.

God created all things through Jesus.
John 1:9,10
Simple

I know very well that Jesus is exalted. But Firstborn is not about context, it has a meaning.

The thing is you don't try to understand the bible in context, you pick your context the way you feel to propagate a recent man made theology.

Cheers.
 

anonymous9887

bible reader
I know very well that Jesus is exalted. But Firstborn is not about context, it has a meaning.

The thing is you don't try to understand the bible in context, you pick your context the way you feel to propagate a recent man made theology.

Cheers.
Not at all. I want you to look at all the meanings of Protokos in the NT and in the septuagint. You will see that it can mean 2 things.
1. 1st in regards to something
Or
2. It is actually used as firstborn examples
Luke 2:7, Luke 2:23, psalm 78:51, And so many other passages it is used as an actual 1 offspring of the parent.

Man made ok that's your opinion, but I say even if it is man made which is not let's look at the context.
Colossians 1:15 because he is the image of the invisible god the first born of all creation
Then
Colossians 1:16 because by him all things were made to created in the heavens and on the earth, the things visible and invisible, Whether they are thrones or lordships, Governments or authorities all things were created for him by him.
Colossians 1:17 also he is before all things, and by means of him all things were made to exist.

Context: I see it related to creation.
 

anonymous9887

bible reader
I know very well that Jesus is exalted. But Firstborn is not about context, it has a meaning.

The thing is you don't try to understand the bible in context, you pick your context the way you feel to propagate a recent man made theology.

Cheers.
If it is man made and I don't know what I'm talking about please enlighten me. What is the context in colossians 1:15,16,17?
 

anonymous9887

bible reader
I know very well that Jesus is exalted. But Firstborn is not about context, it has a meaning.

The thing is you don't try to understand the bible in context, you pick your context the way you feel to propagate a recent man made theology.

Cheers.
What will you tell me about Protokos it appears 134 times
125 in the septuagint
9 in the NT

Examine every usage and you will see it means 1st born sometimes, or 1st in something
Strongs : 1st born, eldest. Strongs # 4416
 
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