How in the world can ANYBODY think the Jews and Christians have the same god, that Jesus is messiah?

[Harmonious]

Emotion is a physical reaction. An emotion is expressed by a physical means, supplied by a physical means.

An emotion is physical.

Emotions are spiritual. The way they work in physical beings is via chemistry.

Love isn't caused by a rush of hormones. Lust, the biological urge, is. Love is not. Love is caused by a desire to give to another.

Anger isn't caused by a biological reason. Turning red is. A palpitating heart is. But the feeling that someone has wronged you or slighted you is NOT biological.

Emotions are NOT physical. The reactions we have that cause the emotions are.

 

[Faybull]

Emotions are spiritual. The way they work in physical beings is via chemistry.

Love isn't caused by a rush of hormones. Lust, the biological urge, is. Love is not. Love is caused by a desire to give to another.

Anger isn't caused by a biological reason. Turning red is. A palpitating heart is. But the feeling that someone has wronged you or slighted you is NOT biological.

Emotions are NOT physical. The reactions we have that cause the emotions are.

You negate the entirety of your premise when using the term "feeling".

It is like the oxymoron of "mind over matter"...whereas the mind is matter.
Anger is a reaction, a physical reaction to an external of internal stimuli.
That experience, is a physical experience.

An emotion is a physical reaction. Thus, an emotion is physical.


We can agree to disagree.

 

[Willamena]

You negate the entirety of your premise when using the term "feeling".

It is like the oxymoron of "mind over matter"...whereas the mind is matter.

Not surprisingly, your perspective is based on what you think "spiritual" means rather than what she does.

 

[Thana]

Do you accept that truth exists in the Hebrew and Christian scriptures or not? If yes then my beliefs have no effect on truth and if no you wouldn't be here debating. As you obviously noted by pointing out my non-Jewish religion I am a Luciferian, meaning I hold truth and logic to such a high degree you could almost call it worship, they are almost deified. Therefore, ALL arguments are technicly relevant to my beliefs, and even assuming I wasn't technically jewish and the religion meant nothing to me, the illogical and plain silly conclusion that the Christian god is the same as the Hebrew god, and that Jesus is the messiah the Hebrew god promised, is my concern.

You still didn't answer my question, Why would a Luciferian defend Judaism as having more 'truth' than Christianity when by being Luciferian means you believe neither has the truth.

 

[1137]

You still didn't answer my question, Why would a Luciferian defend Judaism as having more 'truth' than Christianity when by being Luciferian means you believe neither has the truth.

I did answer your question.

As you obviously noted by pointing out my non-Jewish religion I am a Luciferian, meaning I hold truth and logic to such a high degree you could almost call it worship, they are almost deified. Therefore, ALL arguments are technicly relevant to my beliefs, and even assuming I wasn't technically jewish and the religion meant nothing to me, the illogical and plain silly conclusion that the Christian god is the same as the Hebrew god, and that Jesus is the messiah the Hebrew god promised, is my concern.

 

[Thana]

I did answer your question.

That's not answering it, All you're saying is truth is relevant to you and you look for it but that doesn't explain why you believe that Judaism has more truth than Christianity when clearly you believe that neither the Hebrew God or the Christian God are real.

And it's irrelevant whether or not you think HaShem is different to the 'Christian God', Either way you think both aren't real so again, Why would you say that Judaism has more truth?

 

[1137]

That's not answering it, All you're saying is truth is relevant to you and you look for it but that doesn't explain why you believe that Judaism has more truth than Christianity when clearly you believe that neither the Hebrew God or the Christian God are real.

I am not even saying that Judaism has more truth than Christianity (though it almost certainly does, assuming there is any spiritual truth). What I am saying is that the two Gods are quite obviously not the same, and the whole act of accepting Jesus as the messiah rejects the Hebrew scriptures and spits in the face of the Hebrew God, who by believe is the same god.

And it's irrelevant whether or not you think HaShem is different to the 'Christian God', Either way you think both aren't real so again, Why would you say that Judaism has more truth?

You think that non-belief impacts truth? So because I reject the existence of the deities it automatically makes the deities false? You make legitimately no sense.

As far as "belief" goes, it is all irrelevant. Logic and evidence do not require belief, no matter how much people like you believe otherwise (see what I did there?). Whether I believe or not matters absolutely 0% if you believe the entities exist in the real world. The logic is undeniable. If the Hebrew scriptures are truth and truly the word of the true god - something that Christianity must accept as fact - then Christianity itself is a blasphemous perversion of the first and quite obviously not the true religion of the true god. In these SOUND conclusions, where does my belief even factor in? Nowhere.

 

[Thana]

I am not even saying that Judaism has more truth than Christianity (though it almost certainly does, assuming there is any spiritual truth). What I am saying is that the two Gods are quite obviously not the same, and the whole act of accepting Jesus as the messiah rejects the Hebrew scriptures and spits in the face of the Hebrew God, who by believe is the same god.

You are saying it and you just said it.
All you've done is say it's blasphemous and wrong but you haven't quoted any scripture or made any arguments to support your theory.

You think that non-belief impacts truth? So because I reject the existence of the deities it automatically makes the deities false? You make legitimately no sense.

As far as "belief" goes, it is all irrelevant. Logic and evidence do not require belief, no matter how much people like you believe otherwise (see what I did there?). Whether I believe or not matters absolutely 0% if you believe the entities exist in the real world. The logic is undeniable. If the Hebrew scriptures are truth and truly the word of the true god - something that Christianity must accept as fact - then Christianity itself is a blasphemous perversion of the first and quite obviously not the true religion of the true god. In these SOUND conclusions, where does my belief even factor in? Nowhere.

No you legitimately make no sense. If you reject the existence of deities then yes they are automatically false, to you! And this debate is about you and your beliefs so you saying Judaism has the truth makes no sense because you don't actually believe Judaism has the truth otherwise you'd be a practicing Jew! Do you understand now because I don't know how I can spell it out anymore than I already have.

 

[1137]

You are saying it and you just said it.
All you've done is say it's blasphemous and wrong but you haven't quoted any scripture or made any arguments to support your theory.



No you legitimately make no sense. If you reject the existence of deities then yes they are automatically false, to you! And this debate is about you and your beliefs so you saying Judaism has the truth makes no sense because you don't actually believe Judaism has the truth otherwise you'd be a practicing Jew! Do you understand now because I don't know how I can spell it out anymore than I already have.

You're a troll

 

[wizanda]

I'd be more inclined to believe in God if He didn't expect me to "read between the lines" or choose which "prophet" is His True Mouthpiece".

You've got to read between the lines to see the perverseness, and you need to be looking outside of the books written and edited by man, to find God.

The word, and therefore condemnation of jesus means exactly squat to Judaism. I may as well claim to be the Messiah and it would be equally validm

You say you use logic:
Which is more logical Zechariah 11 which prophesied the 2nd temple destruction, was fulfilled by Yeshua, 30 pieces of silver were paid and put in the Potters Field in the house of Israel, which disannulled their covenant...
or from a Jewish understanding, they were being violent to each other....So were brutally destroyed and cast out amongst the nations?

Personally find it far more logical to accept prophetic fulfillment to the letter, than make up a story that doesn't justify God divorcing them, and casting them out of a promise he made to protect them in the land.

I was asking why someone who doesn't even believe in HaShem would defend Judaism as more valid than Christianity.

His statements are correct and any Jew can tell you Christianity is blasphemous, it defiles most of the 10 commandments, breaks tons of laws and doesn't fit.
Though on the other hand Yeshua stated it right; it is the additions that have made it corrupt by John, Paul and Simon the stone (petros).

According to prophecy, God has established a marvelous work, which has caused some to be adulterous, idolatrous and blasphemous, to establish who the workers of iniquity are, and then remove the whole lot in one go.
So unfortunately that means many Jews who curse the holy spirit, many Christians who have blatantly followed darkness, as if it is light.
If you look in the apocalypse of Abraham, it clarifies it quite well in terms of stating it is to end the age of ungodliness.
It is far easier to catch people out, when you make them believe they're going the right way; which if they reasoned it out, they should notice the deliberate mistakes within it, that are clearly explained by the prophets and the law.

 

[rosends]

God has emotion. A physical characteristic of a living being.

According to Judaism, God does not have emotions. We ascribe emotion to God and use the language of emotion to help ourselves make some sense of the divine.

 

[Desert Snake]

I am not even saying that Judaism has more truth than Christianity (though it almost certainly does, assuming there is any spiritual truth). What I am saying is that the two Gods are quite obviously not the same, and the whole act of accepting Jesus as the messiah rejects the Hebrew scriptures and spits in the face of the Hebrew God, who by believe is the same god.

Well, if you are saying that in this context, if Jesus is not deific, then your argument is superior, I agree. In the context of Judaism, where many xians seem to relegate their beliefs, it is incorrect to say that Jesus is the "Messiah". It's only correct in the context of a Deific Jesus, because that argument includes the authority of God, ie the Deity,/Jesus.

 

[Desert Snake]

Polytheism - "Polytheism" refers to the worship of or belief in multiple deities usually assembled into a pantheon of gods and goddesses, along with their own religions and rituals.
Monotheism - "Monotheism" is defined as belief in the existence of one god or in the oneness of God.



The Holy spirit isn't a God/deity and Jesus isn't a God/deity. There is only one God, Therefore Monotheism.


Source - Christianity - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I don't know what part of 'Judaism doesn't recognize Jesus as the Messiah" is so difficult to understand. The only reason Jesus is the Messiah is because He is Deific. When you say Jesus isn't Deific, then not only is Jesus not the messiah, but He's merely a rebel quasi-Rabbi. I seriously do not understand what position you are trying to take here, it doesn't make sense.

 

[Harmonious]

You've got to read between the lines to see the perverseness, and you need to be looking outside of the books written and edited by man, to find God.

You say you use logic:
Which is more logical Zechariah 11 which prophesied the 2nd temple destruction, was fulfilled by Yeshua, 30 pieces of silver were paid and put in the Potters Field in the house of Israel, which disannulled their covenant...
or from a Jewish understanding, they were being violent to each other....So were brutally destroyed and cast out amongst the nations?

Personally find it far more logical to accept prophetic fulfillment to the letter, than make up a story that doesn't justify God divorcing them, and casting them out of a promise he made to protect them in the land.

Being cast from the land is one thing. Being divorced and nevermore countenanced is quite another.

Either you believe God when He said, "and I will remember My covenant [with] Jacob, and also My covenant [with] Isaac, and also My covenant [with] Abraham I will remember. And I will remember the Land,... But despite all this, while they are in the land of their enemies, I will not despise them nor will I reject them to annihilate them, thereby breaking My covenant that is with them, for I am the Lord their God" (Leviticus 26:42,44) or you don't.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

According to Judaism, God does not have emotions. We ascribe emotion to God and use the language of emotion to help ourselves make some sense of the divine.

… one of the few jewels to be found in the thread.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

If the Hebrew scriptures are truth and truly the word of the true god - something that Christianity must accept as fact - then Christianity itself is ....

Talk about a soggy premise …

 

[wizanda]

Being cast from the land is one thing. Being divorced and nevermore countenanced is quite another.

Either you believe God when He said, "and I will remember My covenant [with] Jacob, and also My covenant [with] Isaac, and also My covenant [with] Abraham I will remember. And I will remember the Land,... But despite all this, while they are in the land of their enemies, I will not despise them nor will I reject them to annihilate them, thereby breaking My covenant that is with them, for I am the Lord their God" (Leviticus 26:42,44) or you don't.

That was clearly fulfilled whilst that covenant was in-effect and even then, God also took them back after the Babylonian exile.

Zec 11:10 And I took my staff, even grace, and cut it asunder, that I might break my covenant which I had made with 'all the people'.

Only covenant i know of made with 'all people' is the one made with Abraham, which is also the one to protect them in the land. Thus with that nullified, the second temple could be destroyed and the people cast out; if the covenant had been in-effect at the time, it couldn't have happened.
As Yeshua said, the vine yard will be given to another group of people, those invited to the wedding supper are no longer the original guests.
So there is no longer a chosen people, instead it is out of the tribes of the world, they've been chosen to 'reign with God' in the messianic age.

Just to clarify this simply, if you don't accept Yeshua, how can you understand that 'God is our salvation', as they mean the same thing.

 

[Yes]

I'm literally just straight curious. Not only is this a belief, it's a common one despite the two deities being inherently contradictory in nature and Jesus fulfilling little to NONE of the messianic prophesy. Not to mention the whole idea of Christ contradicts Judaism, and Christianity has blatantly perverted the Hebrew texts. If the deities are suppose to be the same, as Christianity seems to believe, as in they worship the Hebrew god, isn't the religion absolute pure blasphemy?

All the Jews who came to Jesus and believed...they came to him and believed because they already belonged to God, and they recognized what Jesus said as God's Word.

John 6:45 It is written in the Prophets: 'They will all be taught by God.' Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me.

It is obvious you do not have understanding.

You are giving your opinions about Jesus. If you want to speak from knowledge, then do what Jesus says to do to know if what he says is true, and that is to get his teachings and obey them. See John 7:17. Otherwise, you are only giving worthless opinions.

 

[rosends]

That was clearly fulfilled whilst that covenant was in-effect and even then, God also took them back after the Babylonian exile.

Only covenant i know of made with 'all people' is the one made with Abraham, which is also the one to protect them in the land. Thus with that nullified, the second temple could be destroyed and the people cast out; if the covenant had been in-effect at the time, it couldn't have happened.
As Yeshua said, the vine yard will be given to another group of people, those invited to the wedding supper are no longer the original guests.
So there is no longer a chosen people, instead it is out of the tribes of the world, they've been chosen to 'reign with God' in the messianic age.

Just to clarify this simply, if you don't accept Yeshua, how can you understand that 'God is our salvation', as they mean the same thing.

So the covenant with the other people, requiring them not to harm the children of Israel was nullified and the temple destroyed. However the covenant with the children of Israel, itself, was not nullified. The nullification with the nations of the world was accomplished by God (as the verse pretty clearly states) in the past tense, written by Zech, some 60 years after the destruction of the first temple. He then speaks to the people considering building a second one (with the coffer of "silver" which is desire towards righteousness) and its eventual destruction. None of it necessitates Jesus.

 

[Harmonious]

That was clearly fulfilled whilst that covenant was in-effect and even then, God also took them back after the Babylonian exile.

It is in effect from when God made the promise until eternity. That is what the words of the verse say.

Only covenant i know of made with 'all people' is the one made with Abraham, which is also the one to protect them in the land. Thus with that nullified, the second temple could be destroyed and the people cast out; if the covenant had been in-effect at the time, it couldn't have happened.

The only thing that was "nullified" was that God wouldn't let the nations of the world harm the Jews.

Perhaps you are unfamiliar with how Jews interpret our various prophets. What God told Moses is above whatever any other prophet says. If one of the prophets contradicts what is said anywhere from Genesis to Deuteronomy, it has to be reinterpreted, as it cannot be literal: none of the prophets after Moses can gainsay what God commanded Moses.

Therefore, even if God told Zechariah that the covenant that God made with all people (regarding Israel) was nullified, it was temporary, or it would gainsay the promise that God gave to Israel in Leviticus.

Just to clarify this simply, if you don't accept Yeshua, how can you understand that 'God is our salvation', as they mean the same thing.

You might have missed the fact that Chanuka has just passed. When Jews say that God is our salvation, we refer to saving us PHYSICALLY from our tormentors, oppressors, and would-be annihilators. Over the eight days of Chanuka, we specifically gave thanks to God for saving us from the cruel oppression from the ancient Greeks who tried to deny the Jews the right to circumcise, the right to learn Torah, the right to family purity, the right to keep the Sabbath. They tried to force the Jews to sacrifice pigs in the Temple, as they otherwise defiled it.

With a miraculous victory, the small, untrained army led by Mattitias and his sons beat the well-trained and far more powerful Greek army. God was literally our salvation from destruction and assimilation.

Jesus doesn't feature in anything Jewish. In anything at all. Besides in the desires of the Christians who wish it to be so.