I.S.L.A.M617
Illuminatus
Who says anyone came first?
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How is it true "Jesus is God"?
- Thread starter savagewind
- Start date
Who says anyone came first?
The One existing from forever to forever is God The Father. A believer in the trinity will say, I guess, the son existed with The Father from forever, But then, how is he his son?
According to the way I see it forever has no beginning. How can it?
According to the way I see it forever has no beginning. How can it?
The very definition of "son" means someone who was not but is now, which means a beginning. Huh?
Muffled
Jesus in me
For the record, Jesus is only God to trinitarians who accept the doctrine of trinity. It is not true according to the word of God, Jesus or any of his disciples as recorded in the bible.
That being said...my question for you is: "Where in the bible does it say (or who said) that this belief is relevant to your salvation?
Isa 43:11 I, even I, am Jehovah; and besides me there is no saviour.
I beleive that is due to the fact that trinitarians form their beliefs from the Bible.
I beleive it depends on which doctrine one is talking about. If it is the one based on the Athenasian creed, it is one I don't believe in. If it is the one based on the Nicene Creed, I do believe in it.
I believe this statement reveals that you don't understand scripture very well.
I.S.L.A.M617
Illuminatus
The word isn't "besides", it's "beside"... Small visual difference, but that last "S" makes all the difference in the world. Basically, God is saying there is no savior on the same level as himself ("beside"). Doesn't necessarily follow that there is no other savior. If anything, the passage you have given contradicts the theory that Jesus and God are one and the same.
budha3
Member
The Muslim religion is correct when they disagree with our worshiping Jesus. Jesus didn't even want us to worship him, and yet we do it anyway.
Yes
Oh how I love the Word of God!
Jesus was worshiped and did not stop anyone from doing so.
At the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth.
BadDog
BadDog
SavageWind,
Nice thread. I'm coming late to it, I see.
Actually, scripture does teach that Jesus is God (deity). It also teaches that the Son is one with the Father, and so hence of the same essence. It does not teach that the Son and the Father are the same Person. For example regarding the latter, remember when Jesus was baptized? When He was coming up out of the water of the Jordan the Holy Spirit descended upon Him in the form of a dove and at the same time a voice from the Father came down from the sky saying that this was His beloved Son and He was well-pleased with Him. We see three distinct persons there.
In John 8 Jesus said that before Abraham was, "I am" (EGO EIMI in the Greek - "I am" - it is a very strong emphasis and was intended to remind the listeners of the "I am" and the burning bush where Moses encountered God on the mountain before being commissioned by God.
In John 10:29-33 Jesus said "I and the Father are one." The Jews listening to Him picked up stones to stone Him, and Jesus asked them why they were doing that. Their response was, "You being a man make yourself out to be God." Jesus did not correct their thinking. So we could say that Jesus was another created being of the Father, but then He was a liar, or we could say that He was crazy, but He cannot be a good man, used by God, if He is not deity. That option is not left available to us. I believe CS Lewis was the first to use that argument.
Anyway, as I see it, the Son and the Father are one in essence, but distinct Persons. IOW, He is not the Father, He is one with the Father. This particular theology is referred to as the hypostatic union. for those interested in researching such.
Take care, and have a good weekend.
BD
outhouse
Atheistically
No it doesn't.
That was actually determined after basically a court hearing type setting, with the council of Nicea, and it was fiercely debated for months before Constantine forced the decision to define it that way, because he wanted unity. He really did not care who won the debate, but he did demand unity or else.
When the text was written views were very diverse, and the different communities that wrote the early books had their own diverse views and opinions on how divine he was.
If you read closely, you will see they all have different times when he came divine, so we have some contradictions there.
outhouse
Atheistically
Ah but only in that book.
Other books say he is divine at birth
Another at death I believe.
But not in one entity.
They talk about three, but make no mention they are all connected or one in the same.
Robert.Evans
You will be assimilated; it is His Will.
He could still be an expression of that same Divine could he not? A chip off the old block must surely be made of the same stuff, mustn't it? So how can he not be God? I am talking about now, not then.
outhouse
Atheistically
They called the Emperor god while he was alive. Actually he was "son of god" before Jesus was born.
So to answer your question, only certain people claim he is god and define him to meet their personal needs.
outhouse
Atheistically
That is one place they are factually wrong, correct?
Who are they to dictate who and what other religions should worship?
It is only your personal opinion.
I know that Jesus Christ is our Lord and God. I know this for many reasons. First as a child I asked Jesus to be healed from a physical problem, and I was healed.
As an older child a hand and arm came through my attic bedroom’s ceiling, and touched me. I was given the knowledge that it was God/Jesus’ hand.
As an adult in my late thirties Jesus filled my room up with a beautiful odor, and told me for about a half hour that he loved me, and told me to open up my heart to let his light shine.
Jesus then called me into his ministry, and waited for two years for me to give him an answer. During those two years Jesus gave me several gifts of the Holy Spirit to walk in.
Near the end of those two years I had a daughter who was born blind, and through our prayers, my wife’s, and mine our daughter was healed.
I accepted Jesus’ call to his ministry, and give him my life as he ask me to do. I gave Jesus my life even though the Holy Spirit told me I would lose everything owned by me, if I gave my life to Jesus. I lost or gave away everything owned by me.
Then Jesus told me not to read about him that he would teach me about him.
Jesus has been personally teaching me about him for the last forty some years.
Jesus has told me he is God, and that the Christian Bible is God’s written Word. I have seen Jesus. He has sat next to me, and had me open the bible to teach me.
Many miracles, healings, other blessed events have been done through me in Jesus’ name, over the last forty years.
The true test that I am being led by Jesus our Lord and God is the fruits coming from that relationship.
Jesus has given me the grace to live God’s Word, and that includes committing any wrongdoing/sin.
Jesus' power does not prove he is God. God gave him God's throne. Jesus is he who does God's will from Heaven.
outhouse
Atheistically
The rest of us will deal with universities and real professors
Instead on your personal perception that only carries credibility with you.
BadDog
BadDog
OutHouse,
I agree that Constantine was more interested in the council coming to a resolution so that there would be peace in the cap. In the Council of Nicea we find that the agreement about the deity of Christ was over 300 to 2. Only 2 took the Arian stance. That was because the idea that the Son was deity was almost unanimously held. It is difficult to find other stances before this controversy.
The early church assumed the deity if Christ.
In Jesus' time on earth, the Pharisees and scribes understood that He was claiming deity, which is why they tried to stone Him.
God's Word is clear on His deity.
The koine Greek of the NT is clear regarding His deity.
That's how I see it.
BD
BadDog
BadDog
By books, do you mean books of the NT? This event is told in all 3 of the synoptic gospels (Matthew 3, Mark 1 and Luke 3).
The OT says that God is one, and Jesus said that He was one with the Father. That is saying that they are one in essence.
The baptism I referenced earlier shows that they were three distinct Persons. This is standard trinitarian theology. If you
disagree - fine. But how else do you get scripture to align?
BD
outhouse
Atheistically
There was no early church. In Pauls time they were meeting in houses. The Koine Greek word means "assembly"
And just so you know, there was no orthodoxy for hundreds of years. And these people all had diverse views on divinity itself. Heck the Emperor was divine. But people all had different views on just how divine he was and when he became divine.
Nicea wasn't an argument or debate about divinity itself, they all assumed he was divine including the Arians.
This was written later by people making the Jews look bad, so this new movement would not be persecuted or looked at like Jews to the Romans. They were divorcing cultural Judaism.
With almost half a million people in the temple at Passover, only his actions were noticed that got him killed, not his words or teachings. He was literally invisible in the large crowds.
That's fine, you have a good grasp on things. Im still picking up pieces and relearning what the professors taught me.