HOW is the healthcare bill unconstitutional? Any explanations?

[TheKnight]

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.

I get a feeling that sooner or later, a large amount of Americans will take this part of the Declaration of Independence to heart and start causing problems.

 

[Alceste]

I get a feeling that sooner or later, a large amount of Americans will take this part of the Declaration of Independence to heart and start causing problems.

And I have a feeling that more and more Americans are going to mistake the Declaration of Independence for a legal document or part of the Constitution. IMO, the US needs to spend more money on schools and less money on wars.

 

[Walkntune]

Are you kidding me? You think the government controls the mainstream news? It's the opposite, I'm afraid. The tail really does wag the dog.

Well first please explain where I am saying the Govy is controlling mainstream news.
I will agree that the Govy is being used as pawns the same as mainstream news.

 

[Falvlun]

I believe you will loose all of your rights on how your medical issues will be dealt with and it will be controlled by what is more financially beneficial to the to big drug industry.

Um... how is that any different than it is now? This is a common rant for those opposed to the gov stepping in on healthcare in any way: That means the government will control my medical decisions! Do they not realize that their medical decisions are currently being made by a company whose only goal is to make more money?

I think this bill is a start, but I also think that it can be a loose cannon if another bill isn't passed in the next couple of years going even further. As it stands, it really does seem to be a big gift to the insurance industry. It's great that they can no longer reject you based upon pre-existing conditions, but it doesn't say what your premiums will be. They'll probably be exorbitant. And it's great that we are getting stipends to buy insurance and a state run insurance pool for high risk or low income consumers, but it really would be a lot more efficient if the insurance companies were either non-profit, or the government offered a public option.

 

[Walkntune]

Um... how is that any different than it is now? This is a common rant for those opposed to the gov stepping in on healthcare in any way: That means the government will control my medical decisions! Do they not realize that their medical decisions are currently being made by a company whose only goal is to make more money?

Do you not have the ability to discuss treatment options with your doctor for any medical issues you deal with? I know Doctors are lets say benefited for pushing treatment options now but you have a say so in your treatment plan . Well now that those who have been rewarding doctors have now lobbied the Govy into the largest drug deal in the world and history, your rights in deciding what method you would like to use for treatment will be controlled.Not only will it be their way but you also have no choice but to buy into it. In the end it will all be about the profit off of the drugs.
It is the largest forced drug deal ever.
The only good I see is doing away with all of the drug commercials. Why? BECAUSE THEY WON'T HAVE TO ADVERTISE!
They can be forced with any treatment plan.

On top of this they have your money so you can refuse the services or treatment plans they offer. They can't force you "Yet" to take what they prescribe but they can offer what they want and if you refuse then oh well.
I wonder if they will allow people to get help with issues like mental illness who may feel they just want counselling but try and force medicines or say they refuse the services? Of course the drug industry is going to want everybody and everything on prescription medicines. That's a lot of money and power for these corporations.They will soon own America!

 

[Falvlun]

Do you not have the ability to discuss treatment options with your doctor for any medical issues you deal with? I know Doctors are lets say benefited for pushing treatment options now but you have a say so in your treatment plan . Well now that those who have been rewarding doctors have now lobbied the Govy into the largest drug deal in the world and history, your rights in deciding what method you would like to use for treatment will be controlled.Not only will it be their way but you also have no choice but to buy into it. In the end it will all be about the profit off of the drugs.
It is the largest forced drug deal ever.
The only good I see is doing away with all of the drug commercials. Why? BECAUSE THEY WON'T HAVE TO ADVERTISE!
They can be forced with any treatment plan.

This is all conjecture. Right now, with government stipends for insurance, you can still talk with your doctor about medical decisions, and you can still choose which treatment option you want. The only difference is that some Americans may now be able to afford necessary treatment options where before they were just outta luck. We actually have more choice in treatment than before.

On top of this they have your money so you can refuse the services or treatment plans they offer. They can't force you "Yet" to take what they prescribe but they can offer what they want and if you refuse then oh well.
I wonder if they will allow people to get help with issues like mental illness who may feel they just want counselling but try and force medicines or say they refuse the services? Of course the drug industry is going to want everybody and everything on prescription medicines. That's a lot of money and power for these corporations.They will soon own America!

Exactly how does having insurance mean that you are forced to partake in a particular treatment plan or drug regimen? If this were the case, then we would have seen forced treatment a long time before now.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

Every American, I have known, that has come to the UK to work has used our national health service.
Some have had company paid health insurance, but have quickly found that our health services has no personal limits or exclusions, so have use it in preference to a private service.

With the possible exception of optional minor operations, which can be handled very quickly in private hospitals. Whilst the health service is always in the background to gather up the pieces when things go wrong.

 

[Walkntune]

Exactly how does having insurance mean that you are forced to partake in a particular treatment plan or drug regimen? If this were the case, then we would have seen forced treatment a long time before now.

There is a difference between having health insurance and and having forced health insurance.You can't be forced into a treatment plan but all they have to do is offer what they want and if you refuse then like I said oh well.They will probably be trying to turn away as many as possible anyway.

 

[Autodidact]

This new health care bill is unconstitutional because it is going to grant the Federal Government more authority over health care when the States are supposed to have more. I don't approve of the new bill anyway because all it is going to do is give more authority to the Federal Government, causing more corruption... like we need any more. I can guarantee that it is going to get to the point where shots are going to be mandatory. We aren't going to have any freedom on anything in the future. The larger the Government corruption grows, the less freedoms we are going to have on decision making for ourselves.

What provision of the constitution do you believe it violates?

 

[Autodidact]

Something else that makes me angry is Obama trying to pass a bill on NO FISHING anywhere... this is supposed to save the environment. HA! Even though there is SO MUCH pollution in the air, our environment is already going down hill... Look at what acid rain does... Kills the reproductive organs in fish... haha What is the difference? Is Obama going to make any other laws that help make the environment better? DOUBT IT. He's just taking away our freedoms to fish. lol Just one more thing!

You've been lied to.

How do you feel about the people who lied to you?

 

[Autodidact]

Your healthcare and benefits will be dealt with the same way Govy helped and dealt with Katrina?

No they won't; we voted the Republicans out.

 

[Falvlun]

There is a difference between having health insurance and and having forced health insurance.You can't be forced into a treatment plan but all they have to do is offer what they want and if you refuse then like I said oh well.They will probably be trying to turn away as many as possible anyway.

Why do you not understand that the health insurance industry had this exact same power before the government did anything?

They say, "We will cover this treatment but not that one. We will cover up to this amount, but not a penny more. We will cover you if you are a perfectly healthy person, but if you had a case of the sniffles back in 1992, then sorry, that's a pre-existing condition."

The government is finally trying to regulate the industry so they can't do things like this anymore.

EDIT: If they continue to do these things, ie, limit treatment options, then it is not the government's fault for doing something; it's the government's fault for not doing enough.

 

[Twilight Hue]

They say, "We will cover this treatment but not that one. We will cover up to this amount, but not a penny more. We will cover you if you are a perfectly healthy person, but if you had a case of the sniffles back in 1992, then sorry, that's a pre-existing condition."

The government is finally trying to regulate the industry so they can't do things like this anymore.

That's a major crux of the problem here. The insurance companies are not intended or set up to fully provide coverage for everyone with every ailment. It never was meant or designed to be that way. It's strictly an assessment and risk venture. To suddenly force all insurance companies to provide payout coverage on virtually everything will all for the most part eliminate the industry.

I would think Pres. Obama could have saved a lot of headaches and frustration for a lot of people had he just let the system be and just tightened up the review process so that anybody who is denied coverage, or has monetary issues could more easily and speedily appeal should their conditions be serious enough to warrant expedition.

I don't see how the government can make the very exact same thing work well or somehow make it any cheaper for anybody simply by placing blanket mandates on a system that cannot possibly pay out more than it could take in as it stands. All that extra cash for increased insurance payouts has to come from somewhere!?!?!

Blanket deals never work in a free economy IMO.

 

[Walkntune]

Why do you not understand that the health insurance industry had this exact same power before the government did anything?

They say, "We will cover this treatment but not that one. We will cover up to this amount, but not a penny more. We will cover you if you are a perfectly healthy person, but if you had a case of the sniffles back in 1992, then sorry, that's a pre-existing condition."

The government is finally trying to regulate the industry so they can't do things like this anymore.

EDIT: If they continue to do these things, ie, limit treatment options, then it is not the government's fault for doing something; it's the government's fault for not doing enough.

They haven't had the governments influence yet who are influenced by lobbyists.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Why do you not understand that the health insurance industry had this exact same power before the government did anything?

They say, "We will cover this treatment but not that one. We will cover up to this amount, but not a penny more. We will cover you if you are a perfectly healthy person, but if you had a case of the sniffles back in 1992, then sorry, that's a pre-existing condition."

The government is finally trying to regulate the industry so they can't do things like this anymore.

One thing that got the amateur auto racing community up in arms a few years back was a rash of "hazardous pursuit" exclusions: there was a clause in many policies allowing exclusion of benefits on the grounds that you participated in "hazardous pursuits", but I guess it wasn't worded carefully enough, because many people found themselves excluded when they sought coverage for things completely unrelated to their "hazardous pursuit".

For instance, if you got hurt in an auto collision driving to work, your insurance company would deny your hospital claim on the grounds that on your weekends you rode a horse or a motorcycle, raced stock cars at your local circle track, or liked to skydive.

 

[Reverend Rick]

One thing that got the amateur auto racing community up in arms a few years back was a rash of "hazardous pursuit" exclusions: there was a clause in many policies allowing exclusion of benefits on the grounds that you participated in "hazardous pursuits", but I guess it wasn't worded carefully enough, because many people found themselves excluded when they sought coverage for things completely unrelated to their "hazardous pursuit".

For instance, if you got hurt in an auto collision driving to work, your insurance company would deny your hospital claim on the grounds that on your weekends you rode a horse or a motorcycle, raced stock cars at your local circle track, or liked to skydive.

Wait till the insurance companies can tell you to lose weight or lower your cholesterol numbers.

 

[Mister_T]

I believe you will loose all of your rights on how your medical issues will be dealt with and it will be controlled by what is more financially beneficial to the to big drug industry.

As someone who works in the industry, I can guarantee you that the system we have now is already geared towards what is more beneficial to big drug and big insurance, rather than people and their well being. Profit is the main focus of both, people's well being is secondary. Having this reform should change that, and while it's not perfect, it's better than doing nothing.

Your healthcare and benefits will be dealt with the same way Govy helped and dealt with Katrina?

Are the same people who handled Katrina handling your healthcare? We shouldn't label all the goverment as bad; just because one group of people screwed something up beyond belief, doesn't mean that those that precede them will.

Just expect healthcare costs to keep rising.

Healthcare costs are supposed to drop after the initial influx of new people getting insured, not rise. That's been explained in detail more than a few times now in the past few months.

I have no idea what the civilian security force was needed for. Maybe you will elaborate.

I'm not even sure what the civilian security force is, nor am I sure how it is at all related to helathcare. Mind explaining?

One thing I know for sure is that a house divided against itself is sure to fall!

Or you could just vote those who are purposly causing those divisions, out.

I assumed it was fishy for those who only see surfacely and can't read into the humour.

Not sure I follow.

I don't buy anything just because it is mainstream news no matter the party.Whenever they try to convince the herd I admit I do get suspicious.

I don't either, which is why I try my best to research things myself and see who's more accurate, and who's more full of it.

I think republicans and democrats play against each other and a 3rd party is what is needed to get out of the mess.

I think what is needed is politicians who will actually care about the overall well being of their citizens as best as they can.

 

[Walkntune]

Or you could just vote those who are purposly causing those divisions, out.

Hmmm! I wonder what half the country will leave?

As someone who works in the industry, I can guarantee you that the system we have now is already geared towards what is more beneficial to big drug and big insurance, rather than people and their well being. Profit is the main focus of both, people's well being is secondary. Having this reform should change that, and while it's not perfect, it's better than doing nothing.

I guarantee this bill is still geared toward big drug and govy is jumping on the bandwagon.

Are the same people who handled Katrina handling your healthcare? We shouldn't label all the goverment as bad; just because one group of people screwed something up beyond belief, doesn't mean that those that precede them will.

No it will be the same game, just different pawns.

Healthcare costs are supposed to drop after the initial influx of new people getting insured, not rise. That's been explained in detail more than a few times now in the past few months.

Give me an instance when the Govy has estimated the price of a bill and has been even close to accurate???
Usually they say it will cost 1 billion and it cost five billion. Usually they say it will save a billion and it costs one billion?

I think what is needed is politicians who will actually care about the overall well being of their citizens as best as they can.

I guess you can consider Jesus a politician!

 

[Mister_T]

Hmmm! I wonder what half the country will leave?

I wasn't aware that we were able to vote people out of the country. I was talking about politicians, which is what I thought you were talking about.

I guarantee this bill is still geared toward big drug and govy is jumping on the bandwagon.

If you can guarantee it, then you can provide some factual basis for it, correct?

No it will be the same game, just different pawns.

Fortunatley, that is not the reality of the situation. No government administration is perfect by any means, but to lump every administration in with the horrible ones reeks of sterotypes and generalizations....which is funny, because most of those same anti-government people will turn around and vote the for the govenrment official who uses the phrase "don't trust the government!", simply because he/she uses that phrase, and ignoring the fact said person is in fact part of big government himself.

Give me an instance when the Govy has estimated the price of a bill and has been even close to accurate???
Usually they say it will cost 1 billion and it cost five billion. Usually they say it will save a billion and it costs one billion?

Healthcare costs (which is what I responded to) and the estimated price of the bill are two different subjects. Pick one, and I'll be happy to discuss it with you.

I guess you can consider Jesus a politician!

I have no problem with Jesus as a politician. However, others (most of whom use Jesus for their mascot) would label him a commie liberal and would put a bullseye on whatever state he was representing.

 

[Walkntune]

If you can guarantee it, then you can provide some factual basis for it, correct?

Only evidence of past bills Govy puts their hands on like social security.

Fortunatley, that is not the reality of the situation. No government administration is perfect by any means, but to lump every administration in with the horrible ones reeks of sterotypes and generalizations....which is funny, because most of those same anti-government people will turn around and vote the for the govenrment official who uses the phrase "don't trust the government!", simply because he/she uses that phrase, and ignoring the fact said person is in fact part of big government himself.

When Republicans take over will they vote this bill out or twist it into use for their benefit?Sorry you are right I don't trust Govy and I think they will loot this healthcare plan the same as social security???
In the end the bad will override the good and the whole system will be twisted into more profits and power.I am not saying it as purposeful intentions but greed naturally runs it's course!