How much does the Christian God really love us?

[Debunker]

I understand that this blanket statement is a reflection of your inability to intelligently respond to any of the points I brought up. That's fine with me.

I have no problem with seeing God as the Law - the Laws of Nature. These Laws can also include natural values such as honesty, generosity, freedom, and equality. I discuss these values here: Natural Philosophy of Life

I have no problem with seeing God as these Laws. But these Laws have nothing to do with the Biblical God (which is a man-made fictional character), or with the fictitious dimensions that were made up in the New Testament (heaven, eternal life, Trinity, Covenant with God, etc.), or the laws of the Old Testament. All these have nothing to do with nature and its laws.

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Natural Philosophy of Life - a simple, elegant, and powerful alternative to religious dogma

God is in favor of allowing you to reap what you sow. God created the scientific method and does use it with men.

 

[Debunker]

I can understand your frustration, you are looking for answers and allways come out with empty hands, this mayby is what you are looking for.
Hebrews 8:7-13 but in the old testament you will find it in jeremiah 31:31-34.
"7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion sought for a second.
8 For finding fault with them, he says. Behold, days are coming, says the Lord, when I will effect a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah;
9 Not like the covenant, which I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; for they did not continue in my covenant, and I did not care for them, says the Lord.
10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel. After those days, says the Lord: I will put my laws into their minds, and I will write them upon their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
11 And they shall not teach everyone his fellow citizen, and everyone his brother, saying know the Lord, for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest of them.
12 For I will be merciful to their iniquities, and I will remember their sins no more,
13 When he said, a new covenant, he has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear."

What do you have to say to that

Old blind one, do you not see that the Old and new was one and the same covenant and the difference being that the new was written in our minds and our heart? If you are going to use the Bible as your authority for knowledge, you best learn to read what it is saying. You keep missing the point in what the Bible is saying.

 

[Debunker]

I can understand your frustration, you are looking for answers and allways come out with empty hands, this mayby is what you are looking for.
Hebrews 8:7-13 but in the old testament you will find it in jeremiah 31:31-34.
"7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion sought for a second.
8 For finding fault with them, he says. Behold, days are coming, says the Lord, when I will effect a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah;
9 Not like the covenant, which I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; for they did not continue in my covenant, and I did not care for them, says the Lord.
10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel. After those days, says the Lord: I will put my laws into their minds, and I will write them upon their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
11 And they shall not teach everyone his fellow citizen, and everyone his brother, saying know the Lord, for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest of them.
12 For I will be merciful to their iniquities, and I will remember their sins no more,
13 When he said, a new covenant, he has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear."

What do you have to say to that

My last post was meant for the OP and not you free spirit.

 

[Debunker]

That's just a poor excuse, to supposedly challenge our ability to comprehend the world.

When you buy a computer from Dell, and then it turns out that the computer doesn't work, you go back and complain about it to their service department.

No one would accept the excuse that the computer only seems to not work because you don't understand the superior intelligence of Dell engineers. And that the computer actually works perfectly fine.

No one is that gullible (except for religious people, apparently).

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Natural Philosophy of Life - a simple, elegant, and powerful alternative to religious dogma

The fallacy here is that God does not work in the way you define God. He does work the way the bible defines God.

 

[Debunker]

The world is all there is. If a "spiritual" dimension exists it is also of this world.

If it is not of this world then there's nothing to comprehend, because it doesn't exist.

_____________________
Natural Philosophy of Life - a simple, elegant, and powerful alternative to religious dogma

Therefore, you do not believe in any ontology whatever? That is half of all philosophy right there. Man, you are really deep to be able to dismiss half the source of learning altogether in one step. Nothing narrow minded about you, is there?

 

[Debunker]

This is patently not true. Otherwise, how would you explain the fact that people can be brainwashed to do all sorts of unethical things? How can you explain the crimes of the Nazis, child-soldiers, etc.?

Also, Jeremiah 31 clearly and unambiguously says: "all shall know me, from the least to the greatest of them."

It means everyone, from all ages. Everyone would know God.

My nephew had no idea what "God" is. Even after I tried to explain it to him, he didn't seem to "recognize" what I was referring to.

So there's no room for theological acrobatics here. Jeremiah's prophecy was not fulfilled.

_____________________
Natural Philosophy of Life - a simple, elegant, and powerful alternative to religious dogma

The deception here is the fact that a 4 year old has not developed the vocabulary necessary to express what he knows. You have no way of knowing what he knows or what he does not know. See, its all a trick of words as to what you really know.

 

[Luminous]

scriptural idolatry is inferior to agnostic philosophy and will be severily eradicated from filthed souls by God's cleansing hell fire.

 

[Enoughie]

did anybody mention circular thinking on this thread as yet?

Yes. In reference to what you said:

You must obey God first (a condition), then God's love is unconditional.

But contrary to your claim, I didn't use circular reasoning in my post. It was merely your poor understanding of the argument I was making. There was nothing circular in my statement.

_____________________
Natural Philosophy of Life offers a simple, elegant, and powerful alternative to religious dogma. This philosophy has a firm foundation in nature, science, and reason, and it is centered on the core values of honesty, generosity, equality, and

 

[Enoughie]

The deception here is the fact that a 4 year old has not developed the vocabulary necessary to express what he knows. You have no way of knowing what he knows or what he does not know. See, its all a trick of words as to what you really know.

The deception here is that you're implying here that a 4 year old actually knew what god is, even though you claim that no one can know what the 4 year old knows because he hasn't developed the vocabulary. When I was 4 I had no idea what god is. I learned about god only when I was around 6. This utterly refutes your deceptive assertion to the contrary.

_____________________
Natural Philosophy of Life offers a simple, elegant, and powerful alternative to religious dogma. This philosophy has a firm foundation in nature, science, and reason, and it is centered on the core values of honesty, generosity, equality, and

 

[Enoughie]

Therefore, you do not believe in any ontology whatever? That is half of all philosophy right there. Man, you are really deep to be able to dismiss half the source of learning altogether in one step. Nothing narrow minded about you, is there?

I don't believe in anything supernatural. I don't just not believe in it, I can prove through logic and reason that such dimension cannot exist. Life is natural, our consciousness is an evolutionary development. It can only exist in a living body. There cannot be life after death, because after you die your body no longer sustains your life. Since there is no supernatural dimension, nothing else can sustain your "spirit" either.

I don't accept delusional thinking. That is not narrow-mindedness. That is called being reasonable.

_____________________
Natural Philosophy of Life offers a simple, elegant, and powerful alternative to religious dogma. This philosophy has a firm foundation in nature, science, and reason, and it is centered on the core values of honesty, generosity, equality, and

 

[Debunker]

If acts of kindness prove in any way the fulfillment of Jeremiah 31, then acts of evil certainly disprove it.

The assertion that people know what is good and what is evil, and still choose to do evil is far from being universally accepted.

Socrates, for example, claimed that: "If one knows the good, one will always do the good. It follows, then, that anyone who does anything wrong doesn't really know what the good is."

I come across many people who do bad things because they truly believe that what you're doing is good.

So unless you demonstrate that everyone knows exactly what good is, you cannot even come close to claim that any part of Jeremiah 31 was fulfilled.


I don't know what sort of god you believe in. But I cannot accept the obnoxious idea that, for example, a homosexual lifestyle is in any way sinful. Or that slavery is OK. But that is what the Biblical God would want us to believe. Which means that the Biblical God cannot possibly be the loving and benevolent God that (supposedly) governs the world.

_____________________
Natural Philosophy of Life offers a simple, elegant, and powerful alternative to religious dogma. This philosophy has a firm foundation in nature, science, and reason, and it is centered on the core values of honesty, generosity, equality, and freedom.

I am pleased that you mentioned homosexuality. I thought for a while that I was going to have to apologies to you. I believe your belief is based on hedonism and not on what the Bible says. That is the motivation for your attempt to discredit the Bible. It disagrees with your lifestyle and you therefore attack the Bible in an attempt to justify your personal philosophy of life. I am not literally saying that homosexual behavior is a personal flaw but the Bible does. I don't attack homosexuals but they really don't like what the Bible says about this as a sin.Now we at least have a reason for why you twist so much of what the Bible says.You just lost your objectivity. You did fine until now but we all know your philosophy of life is a counter statement of the Bible.

 

[Luminous]

I am pleased that you mentioned homosexuality. I thought for a while that I was going to have to apologies to you. I believe your belief is based on hedonism and not on what the Bible says. That is the motivation for your attempt to discredit the Bible. It disagrees with your lifestyle and you therefore attack the Bible in an attempt to justify your personal philosophy of life. I am not literally saying that homosexual behavior is a personal flaw but the Bible does. I don't attack homosexuals but they really don't like what the Bible says about this as a sin.Now we at least have a reason for why you twist so much of what the Bible says.You just lost your objectivity. You did fine until now but we all know your philosophy of life is a counter statement of the Bible.

hahahaha homosexuals are superior to scriptural idolaters.
specifically, scriptural idolaters are morally inferior to homosexual monkeys.

 

[Debunker]

Silly.....God did not give us anger, hate or evil.....He gave us the ability for those things.
The only thing He gave us is LOVE, and regardless of what anybody thinks or says, His love is not deterred the least bit.

Love or hate comes by what one makes it to be.

Blessings, AJ

Look here Look. I can make a real strong Biblical argument that God hates atheist/agnostics in the book of Romans. You are not suppose to wish evil doers God speed either according to Jesus. What is with this blessing thing to everybody? do you have a good reason for blessing everybody? Where is that old dust your feet thing that Christ talked about? You show too much weakness in the face of the enemy. Let's see a little more of standing, which will bring the salvation of God. Don't give place to evil, not one inch. Bless you brother and that is for real.

 

[Enoughie]

I am pleased that you mentioned homosexuality. I thought for a while that I was going to have to apologies to you. I believe your belief is based on hedonism and not on what the Bible says. That is the motivation for your attempt to discredit the Bible. It disagrees with your lifestyle and you therefore attack the Bible in an attempt to justify your personal philosophy of life. I am not literally saying that homosexual behavior is a personal flaw but the Bible does. I don't attack homosexuals but they really don't like what the Bible says about this as a sin.Now we at least have a reason for why you twist so much of what the Bible says.You just lost your objectivity. You did fine until now but we all know your philosophy of life is a counter statement of the Bible.

I did not lose my objectivity, but you lost your credibility of your arguments being based on facts or reason. They are not. Your arguments are based on sophism, empty rhetoric, and baseless assumptions.

You cannot defend your religion through arguments that are based on evidence or reason because the foundation to your religion is entirely fictional.

I can easily refute your assertions in this post simply by this: I'm not a homosexual. I respect people who are homosexual, and who lead a homosexual lifestyle, because it is a harmless lifestyle.

On the other hand, your religion promotes bigotry and intolerance toward a harmless lifestyle, which makes your religion morally bankrupt.

Now that you lost all credibility as a sensible debater, I can say what motivates me and my philosophy. It is very simple:

I want to live in a better world; a world with more honesty, generosity, freedom, and equality. And with less bigotry, intolerance, self-righteousness, ignorance, and hypocrisy. The latter are all qualities that your religion promotes.

_____________________
Natural Philosophy of Life offers a simple, elegant, and powerful alternative to religious dogma. This philosophy has a firm foundation in nature, science, and reason, and it is centered on the core values of honesty, generosity, equality, and

 

[Debunker]

What some people fail to understand is that the various theistic blasphemies upon God merely fail in their logic because they rely upon none. Since 'supernatural' is an oxymoron, the existance of it outside of an idea means that reality is meaningless.

That is bull.

 

[Luminous]

That is bull.

what a substantive reply. much expected from a scriptural idolater.

 

[Debunker]

It is the biblical god's responsibility to the extent that the biblical god doesn't allow people to make informed decisions about life.

See this thread: http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/religious-debates/109630-why-does-biblical-god-not-want.html
And specifically these posts: http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/2317007-post105.html and http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/2312192-post61.html

_____________________
Natural Philosophy of Life offers a simple, elegant, and powerful alternative to religious dogma. This philosophy has a firm foundation in nature, science, and reason, and it is centered on the core values of honesty, generosity, equality, and freedom

More bull will not correct your errors.

 

[Debunker]

That is an absolutely fallacious claim. You can have morality, and a great incentive to live in accord with this morality without ever invoking God. I demonstrate this fact here: Natural Philosophy of Life
Not only that, but unlike the morality of the biblical god, this morality is not based on credulity, and doesn't go against reason.

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Natural Philosophy of Life offers a simple, elegant, and powerful alternative to religious dogma. This philosophy has a firm foundation in nature, science, and reason, and it is centered on the core values of honesty, generosity, equality, and freedom

Hedonism is noted by philosophers as the pig philosophy and for good reason. You now are trying to make hedonism a respectful way of life.

 

[Debunker]

I thought your god said that nothing good dwells in men.

Now, I didn't say the biblical god has to make decisions for me. I said the biblical god should allow me to make informed decisions about how to live life.

If he doesn't give us evidence for the existence of heaven, or for eternal life, or for his own existence, we cannot make an informed decision on following him.

I have no problem living a moral life. I derive my morality from nature. But the moral life I live is in contradiction to some of the claims of the biblical god. For example, I see no value in the institution of marriage - in fact, I think the institution of marriage is amoral.

So if the biblical god wants me to live my life according to his rules, he should provide evidence that his claims are true. If he doesn't do that, then it is his fault that people don't follow his bizarre rules.

_____________________
Natural Philosophy of Life offers a simple, elegant, and powerful alternative to religious dogma. This philosophy has a firm foundation in nature, science, and reason, and it is centered on the core values of honesty, generosity, equality, and freedom

You do not learn these things from natural philosophy but from your personal premises of pleasure being the main objective of knowledge. Natural philosophy teaches you about God and all that other stuff is pure hedonism or better known as the pig philosophy.

 

[Enoughie]

Hedonism is noted by philosophers as the pig philosophy and for good reason. You now are trying to make hedonism a respectful way of life.

You continue making fallacious claims that have no foundation in reality. My philosophy has absolutely nothing to do with hedonism. If you claim that is does, demonstrate it!

You resort to making false accusations, because you cannot defend your morally bankrupt religion.

You have to stop using empty rhetoric, sophism, and fallacious assertions. Otherwise, I cannot respect you as an intellectually honest debater.

_____________________
Natural Philosophy of Life offers a simple, elegant, and powerful alternative to religious dogma. This philosophy has a firm foundation in nature, science, and reason, and it is centered on the core values of honesty, generosity, equality, and