How Odd Is Putin's Russia?

[Aupmanyav]

Ukraine wanted to join NATO precisely because of that war you mentioned (invasion actually).

That was its undoing. Had it kept balance between West and Russia, it would have been safe.

 

[Aupmanyav]

You say "concerns", but the reality is "warmongering ambitions".
Them trying to join NATO is exactly the opposite of "disregarding" Russia.

I don't understand how people feel like the best course of action for someone is to allow themselves to be oppressed by bullies.

Taking cognizance of neighbors concerns is not submission. It is wisdom. US and India do not recognize Taiwan as an independent country because of China's concerns.

 

[Magic Man]

That was its undoing. Had it kept balance between West and Russia, it would have been safe.

Sure, just like an abused wife should just do everything she can to appease her husband so as not to get beaten again. Rather than going to authorities to protect her from him. Kind of amazing that you blame Ukraine, rather than the actual country that invaded.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Sure, just like an abused wife should just do everything she can to appease her husband so as not to get beaten again.

Even a wife should not knowingly make her husband very angry. Was how the Russians will react, not known to Ukraine? They just did not care (thought Uncle Sam will take care of everything).

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Taking cognizance of neighbors concerns is not submission. It is wisdom.

They don't have legitimate "concerns". They have warmongering ambitions. I'm sorry that you seem hellbend on not understanding the difference.

US and India do not recognize Taiwan as an independent country because of China's concerns.

Not comparable.
Ukraine is a sovereign nation and it can make its own decisions.
It's also not NATO demanding or even inviting them to join NATO. It is Ukraine's own sovereign decision.
And it does so because it feels threatened by Russia.

And the past years have shown that their concerns are very much right on point.
Why don't you care about Ukraine's concerns, for that matter?

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

That was its undoing. Had it kept balance between West and Russia, it would have been safe.

That's delusional.

The problems started when the people of Ukraine ousted the Russian puppet regime and democratically elected its own leaders instead of Russian muppets.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Even a wife should not knowingly make her husband very angry. Was how the Russians will react, not known to Ukraine? They just did not care (thought Uncle Sam will take care of everything).

Serious question: why, do you think, does Ukraine want to join NATO so desperately?

 

[Estro Felino]

Serious question: why, do you think, does Ukraine want to join NATO so desperately?

Let me tell you that I have heard rumors. Dangerous rumors.
That if those warmongers succeed in provoking world war three, many countries will quit the NATO.
So... I would suggest these politicians thirsty for war to favor an escalation, because the army is armed, They aren't.

 

[Magic Man]

Even a wife should not knowingly make her husband very angry.

Yet again, blaming the victim. Obviously spouses should treat each other well, but that's not what we're talking about. A spouse should not beat their partner. Whether or not the partner did something that annoyed or angered them is irrelevant. The point is still that, just like an abused wife should not be blamed for "provoking" her abusive husband into beating her, Ukraine can't be blamed for "provoking" Russia into invading them.

Was how the Russians will react, not known to Ukraine? They just did not care (thought Uncle Sam will take care of everything).

Let's recap:

Ukraine: We want to join NATO because of the possibility of Russian aggression.
Russia: *Invades*
Ukraine: See? This is exactly why we wanted to join a defensive alliance to protect us from this very thing.

And here you are blaming the victim. "Well, Ukraine knew what would happen but did it anyway." "Well, Mary knew that by talking to police about how her husband abuses her, her husband would probably beat her, but she did it anyway."

It's pretty disgusting actually.

 

[Magic Man]

Let me tell you that I have heard rumors. Dangerous rumors.
That if those warmongers succeed in provoking world war three, many countries will quit the NATO.
So... I would suggest these politicians thirsty for war to favor an escalation, because the army is armed, They aren't.

I'm sorry; was this meant to make sense or respond to the question you quoted?

Also, I don't think anyone is interested in "rumors you heard".

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

You sound like Verhofstadt...sometimes.
How can I know you're not him?

I haven't heard about the dude in years and I am not aware of him making any such statements.
This is just another example of you again trying to derail into oblivion.
Desperately trying to find something (or someone) new to rant about in an attempt to distract.

So boring

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Let me tell you that I have heard rumors. Dangerous rumors.
That if those warmongers succeed in provoking world war three, many countries will quit the NATO.
So... I would suggest these politicians thirsty for war to favor an escalation, because the army is armed, They aren't.

Did you get these "rumors" from what-you-like-to-call "european media" which in reality really is the russian ministry of foreign affairs?




And as usual, no actual addressing of the post quoted. Instead, just another distraction meant to derail. Nothing more, nothing less.
Anything to avoid discussing the matter at hand.

So boring

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Yet again, blaming the victim. Obviously spouses should treat each other well, but that's not what we're talking about. A spouse should not beat their partner. Whether or not the partner did something that annoyed or angered them is irrelevant. The point is still that, just like an abused wife should not be blamed for "provoking" her abusive husband into beating her, Ukraine can't be blamed for "provoking" Russia into invading them.

Let's recap:

Ukraine: We want to join NATO because of the possibility of Russian aggression.
Russia: *Invades*
Ukraine: See? This is exactly why we wanted to join a defensive alliance to protect us from this very thing.

And here you are blaming the victim. "Well, Ukraine knew what would happen but did it anyway." "Well, Mary knew that by talking to police about how her husband abuses her, her husband would probably beat her, but she did it anyway."

It's pretty disgusting actually.

"Jews knew they would be rounded up by Nazi's and yet they didn't change their name, reject their religion, etc... so they had it coming and don't have a right to complain".

 

[Aupmanyav]

They don't have legitimate "concerns". They have warmongering ambitions. I'm sorry that you seem hellbend on not understanding the difference.
Ukraine is a sovereign nation and it can make its own decisions. .. It is Ukraine's own sovereign decision.
Why don't you care about Ukraine's concerns, for that matter?

Unfortunate that you consider the concerns of one party as illegitimate.
Ukraine's sovereign decision has made it suffer a two and a half year war which shows no sign of ending.
I care about Ukraine, that is why I say that Ukraine should engage is peace-talks rather than trying to defeat Russia.

 

[Aupmanyav]

The problems started when the people of Ukraine ousted the Russian puppet regime and democratically elected its own leaders instead of Russian muppets.

They should have elected some moderate wise person, not Don Quixotes like Poroshenko and Zelensky.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Serious question: why, do you think, does Ukraine want to join NATO so desperately?

Sovereign decision, like you said. Decisions have consequences.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Ukraine can't be blamed for "provoking" Russia into invading them.

Ukraine: We want to join NATO because of the possibility of Russian aggression.
Russia: *Invades*
Ukraine: See? This is exactly why we wanted to join a defensive alliance to protect us from this very thing.

It's pretty disgusting actually.

Who else can I blame for 'provoking' Russia?

Ukraine 1: We do not want Yanukowych, but here is a person, Tanukowych, who can live with you. We are not joining NATO.
Russia: That seems to be OK.
Ukraine 2: We do not want Yanukowych, we want Ranukowych. We will join NATO.
Ranukowych: Don't worry. I will take care of it. I have talked to my friend, Joe Biden. 'Army, Language, Religion' slogan attributed to Ranukowych. (Petro Poroshenko - Wikipedia)
Russia: OK, you will soon see the results.
Joe Biden: I expanded NATO. I am ruling not just USA but the whole world.

Yeah, it is disgusting how NATO used Ukraine to fight its war with Russia.

 

[Magic Man]

Who else can I blame for 'provoking' Russia?

Russia.

Ukraine 1: We do not want Yanukowych, but here is a person, Tanukowych, who can live with you. We are not joining NATO.
Russia: That seems to be OK.
Ukraine 2: We do not want Yanukowych, we want Ranukowych. We will join NATO.
Ranukowych: Don't worry. I will take care of it. I have talked to my friend, Joe Biden. 'Army, Language, Religion' slogan attributed to Ranukowych. (Petro Poroshenko - Wikipedia)
Russia: OK, you will soon see the results.
Joe Biden: I expanded NATO. I am ruling not just USA but the whole world.

I always have to wonder whether people who say this utter nonsense expect anyone to believe it.

Biden is not ruling anything. Ukraine wanted to join NATO due to fears of Russian aggression. Then when it was made public that they wanted to join NATO, what happened? Russian aggression! It's almost like their fears were well-founded and proven right.

Yeah, it is disgusting how NATO used Ukraine to fight its war with Russia.

No, it's disgusting how you like to blame victims. No one used Ukraine. Ukraine wanted to join because of exactly what happened. NATO doesn't have a war with Russia. They have an alliance in case of Russian aggression. You know, the Russian aggression we're seeing right now. It's very easy to see unless you close your eyes to reality and only accept Putin's propaganda.

 

[Tomef]

Set aside the humor of Putin walking in to Darth Vader's Imperial March.
Consider the short man (a little Napoleon) entering the huge fabulously
gilded palace. His right arm largely immobile, while the left one swings.
Watch all the froufrou uniformed guards as all in unison, they so formally
turn their uplifted gaze slowly & synchronously in Putin's direction as he
passes, making his way toward into the palace.
It all suggests that if Napoleon, Caligula, Hitler, & Stalin mixed their DNA
together to create an unholy spawn, it would be Vladimir Vladimirovich Putin.

The whole of Putinist Russia, representing the ruling kleptocrats and the broad, largely little educated mass of the populace, live in a world of mythology. In Kremlin mythology, Russia is the saviour of the world. Even the medievally brutal and pointless Afghan war is portrayed as both a humanitarian mission and, in some strange sense, a victory. In Putin myth land, the KGB was a force for good, Stalin was basically a great guy and Russia is always and ever only the victim.

What they really, really need as a nation is a reckoning with reality. There was a brief period in the 90s when there was a bit more honesty from the top level, and some Afghan war veterans wrote honest accounts of the conduct of Russian forces during the war (castrating whole villages of Afghan men, shooting up schools and weddings, the routine annihilation of whole villages), but the only film about it (9th Company) that has remained popular is a total whitewash. Most Russians just don’t want to hear about it. They prefer their fantasy histories.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Unfortunate that you consider the concerns of one party as illegitimate.

When that concern amounts to "I want to be able to attack this sovereign nation without having to worry about others coming to its aid", then yes, I don't consider that "concern" to be legitimate.

Why do you?

Ukraine's sovereign decision has made it suffer a two and a half year war which shows no sign of ending.
I care about Ukraine, that is why I say that Ukraine should engage is peace-talks rather than trying to defeat Russia.

If you cared about Ukraine, you would also care about Ukraine's concerns, but apparently you do not.

Why not? Why are Russia's war-mongering "concerns" more important / legitimate then Ukraine's concerns of self-defense?
Might makes right?