How on earth can the Qur'an be considered the perfect book?

[LuisDantas]

Aren't you asking us to doubt what is said in the Qur'an now?

 

[use_your_brain]

Aren't you asking us to doubt what is said in the Qur'an now?

do you ask me? let us examine the Quran together.

 

[LuisDantas]

I have had plenty enough of the Qur'an, thanks. I think most anyone has. I have no desire to encourage the very common mistake of treating scripture as something to be worshipped.

What do you say? Bonus points if you can do it without quoting from the Qur'an.

 

[FearGod]

It is not "twisting the meaning". It is pointing out how feeble the claim is.

Edited to add: complaining that some site or person is "anti-islam" is in effect no objection at all. I truly have to wonder why the attempt is even made.

It should not and does not matter whether someone is predisposed towards or against Islam. The arguments must stand or fall on their own merits.

I don't agree with you that the claim is feeble but the twisting was intended since the meaning is clear,
you're only trying to make the anti Islam website looks as honest and innocent while it isn't.

 

[LuisDantas]

I don't agree with you that the claim is feeble but the twisting was intended since the meaning is clear,

Quite on the contrary. It is vague and needs so much artistic license as to be non-existent.

you're only trying to make the anti Islam website looks as honest and innocent while it isn't.

I do not have to even try. Nor does it even make a difference whether it is "anti Islam".

It just does not matter, nor should it.

 

[Useless2015]

What do you mean by white trash?

Not a typical white person. Grew up in a rough neighborhood, lived under wellfare. Didnt have a dad, his mom was doing drugs all the time.

 

[morphesium]

First let me just say, since I know people need to be explicitly told about nuance otherwise they rage hard, I'm not saying all Muslim's think the Qur'an is the perfect book or that they necessarily subscribe to what i'm saying here. Nevertheless, I've heard it multiple times from different Muslims that the Qur'an just has to be the perfect book.

I found it to consist of highly questionable stories and boring poetry. The same kind of stories and patterns tend to show up in other holy books too like the Bible and the Torah, which tells me that's its just a rehashing of these two faiths with a new spin and a new prophet. I also can't understand why Muhammad is supposed to be so great. He was a great military leader, but otherwise i don't see any reason why I should listen to him, over say Siddhartha.

Furthermore, I know some Muslims like to note that the Arabic writing in the true Qur'an is just so sophisticated and beautiful that it just has to be the perfect word of God. But a truly perfect book from God wouldn't rely on the language it was written in--the book would be perfect in all languages for the most part because that's part of what being perfect is--not subject to ambiguity.

However, if there was such a thing as a perfect book, I would spend all my free time reading it. I would just read it over and over again whenever I could because its perfect and would never get boring. Instead I got tired of the Qur'an very quickly; a perfect book would not bore me that fast. I couldn't hope to get through it and finish it at this point. Thus I think that Muslim's also don't think the Qur'an is the perfect book. Muslims are normal people who have many hobbies and do a variety of things other than reading their holy book or going to their Mosque. Why would Muslims have other hobbies if the Qur'an was the perfect book?

So basically i'm wondering what the criteria for a perfect book is and how exactly the Qur'an fits that description. Also, why do you accept the validity of the Qur'an and Muhammad over the Bible and Jesus Christ Muslims? Personally if I was going to pick a prophet it would be the son of God instead of a warlord who consummated a marriage with a little girl. Also one final question: why do some Muslims consider themselves to be a race? That's just silly.

The reason why Muslims accept Quran the way they do is because of brain washing. They are taught that way from a very young age ( just 6 or 7 years old). Only they can say "this is the perfect book" or that " there is no false in it" when actually the book is filled with absurdities and acts of poor morale.

 

[Shad]

What do you mean by dirt ? and how dirt can be smoke

Smoke contains solid materials, it is not just gases. Dirt can be one of the many solids within it. You do not understand the difference between smoke and gases.

 

[paarsurrey]

Isn't that what we call misplacement of the burden of proof?
People are entitled to simply disagree.

No, it is not.
Muhammad on whom it was revealed did not claim having authored Quran the Recitation. The inner evidence of Quran the Recitation also speaks loudly that it is authored by G-d and none else.
Regards

 

[outhouse]

The inner evidence of Quran the Recitation also speaks loudly that it is authored by G-d and none else

If this was true, why did he copy Israelite mythology that never took place?

 

[FearGod]

Smoke contains solid materials, it is not just gases. Dirt can be one of the many solids within it. You do not understand the difference between smoke and gases.

That was a great point, yes it was smoke and not just gases.
i agree with you.

 

[LuisDantas]

No, it is not.
Muhammad on whom it was revealed did not claim having authored Quran the Recitation. The inner evidence of Quran the Recitation also speaks loudly that it is authored by G-d and none else.
Regards

You did not even attempt to answer my question. Do you realize that?

 

[muhammad_isa]

The reason why Muslims accept Quran the way they do is because of brain washing. They are taught that way from a very young age ( just 6 or 7 years old). Only they can say "this is the perfect book" or that " there is no false in it" when actually the book is filled with absurdities and acts of poor morale.

The same can be said about science education ie. They are taught that way from a very young age ( just 6 or 7 years old)

It is your lack of understanding that you consider religion to be "a social subject" rather than a Divine one..

..if I'm brainwashed, then so be it. I do not like ignorance and agression, but neither am I a pacifist. However, "there is no force in religion" as far as I'm concerned, and so I'll stick to what I consider to be the truth.

 

[gnostic]

what is your conclusion?
can we review them one by one?
let us start from: satan denied prostating before adam.

Before I start with Satan disobeying God by not bowing down to Adam, and I will do you one better than just going one by one, by starting with this.

To me, all scriptures - not just the Qur'an - comprised of allegories, parables, myths, folklore, etc, more so than they contain historical facts.

And allegories, parables, myths and folktales were never mean to be taken literally or historically or scientifically to be true.

Historically, Adam don't exist. Adam is an invention made by ancient Israelite during the 1st millennium BCE, said to be the first man and an ancestor to all. Jews, Christians and Muslims accept Adam to be real, but he doesn't exist: Adam is a myth.

Satan is also a myth.

1. Satan is an angel according to the Jews, and still is an angel, doing god's bidding.
2. Christians believe him to be a demon (the Devil) and an ex-angel (fallen angel).
3. Muslims believe that Satan, or Iblis, was never an angel, but a jinn, and all jinns were creatures made of smokeless fire.

Regardless of whether Satan is an angel, demon/fallen angel or jinn, none of them exist, except in books of myths.

Jinns are mythological beings that were invented by pagan Arabs before Muhammad. They (jinns) don't exist, so that mean Satan/Iblis don't exist.

And if Satan don't really exist and if Adam don't exist, except in religious myths, then why should I believe that the story of Satan refusing to obey God, by not bowing down to Adam (Qur'an 5:32).

Second, both the Tanakh and the Bible, don't have this episode of Satan refusing to prostrate before Adam. So where this story come from?

The episode of Adam and Satan come from a rabbi or sage, who invented the story of Satan refusing to obey God, by not bowing down to Adam, from the Midrash and Aggadah, rabbinical texts.

A translation to the Aggadah can be found in the Legends of the Jews, volume 1, chapter 2 (Adam), translated into English by Louis Ginzberg (1909); look up the chapter for the FALL OF SATAN.

Here, I will quote the relevant bit to you, after Adam won the contest of naming each kind of animals and birds, God demanded that all the angels to bow down to Adam:

Nevertheless he broke out in wild outcries that reached the heavens, and he refused to do homage unto Adam as he had been bidden. The host of angels led by him did likewise, in spite of the urgent representations of Michael, who was the first to prostrate himself before Adam in order to show a good example to the other angels.

The Qur'an version may not be exact copy of the the Aggadah version, the idea is still a borrowing from the rabbinic text.

Why would Muhammad used a source that come from a rabbi, not a prophet?

Thirdly, if I don't believe in the existence of jinns, why should I believe that angels are any more real?

Muhammad being visited by angel Gabriel... Questionable.

So if angels are myths and don't exist, then Muhammad claiming that Gabriel had visited him, not real. And this make Muhammad claim to be questionable, if Gabriel don't exist.

By knocking down the existence of jinns and angels, everything else that I find questionable in the Qur'an, makes the whole Qur'an fall apart.

 

[Shad]

That was a great point, yes it was smoke and not just gases.
i agree with you.

Problem is smoke's solids change depending on the current environment it is from. If there are no solids, as per early cosmology, then your verse is wrong as it is no longer smoke. In the end you agreed that the Quran is wrong. You did so since you are ignorant of what smoke is, what it contains, why it contains such materials, gases, liquids and cosmology.

 

[muhammad_isa]

..You did so since you are ignorant of what smoke is, what it contains, why it contains such materials, gases, liquids and cosmology.

Big deal! Do you think that Almighty God doesn't know why people play with words, and play the 'superior scientist' card?

He knows all .. nothing is hidden from Him.

 

[use_your_brain]

Before I start with Satan disobeying God by not bowing down to Adam, and I will do you one better than just going one by one, by starting with this.

To me, all scriptures - not just the Qur'an - comprised of allegories, parables, myths, folklore, etc, more so than they contain historical facts.

And allegories, parables, myths and folktales were never mean to be taken literally or historically or scientifically to be true.

Historically, Adam don't exist. Adam is an invention made by ancient Israelite during the 1st millennium BCE, said to be the first man and an ancestor to all. Jews, Christians and Muslims accept Adam to be real, but he doesn't exist: Adam is a myth.

Satan is also a myth.

1. Satan is an angel according to the Jews, and still is an angel, doing god's bidding.
2. Christians believe him to be a demon (the Devil) and an ex-angel (fallen angel).
3. Muslims believe that Satan, or Iblis, was never an angel, but a jinn, and all jinns were creatures made of smokeless fire.

Regardless of whether Satan is an angel, demon/fallen angel or jinn, none of them exist, except in books of myths.

Jinns are mythological beings that were invented by pagan Arabs before Muhammad. They (jinns) don't exist, so that mean Satan/Iblis don't exist.

And if Satan don't really exist and if Adam don't exist, except in religious myths, then why should I believe that the story of Satan refusing to obey God, by not bowing down to Adam (Qur'an 5:32).

Second, both the Tanakh and the Bible, don't have this episode of Satan refusing to prostrate before Adam. So where this story come from?

The episode of Adam and Satan come from a rabbi or sage, who invented the story of Satan refusing to obey God, by not bowing down to Adam, from the Midrash and Aggadah, rabbinical texts.

A translation to the Aggadah can be found in the Legends of the Jews, volume 1, chapter 2 (Adam), translated into English by Louis Ginzberg (1909); look up the chapter for the FALL OF SATAN.

Here, I will quote the relevant bit to you, after Adam won the contest of naming each kind of animals and birds, God demanded that all the angels to bow down to Adam:


The Qur'an version may not be exact copy of the the Aggadah version, the idea is still a borrowing from the rabbinic text.

Why would Muhammad used a source that come from a rabbi, not a prophet?

Thirdly, if I don't believe in the existence of jinns, why should I believe that angels are any more real?



So if angels are myths and don't exist, then Muhammad claiming that Gabriel had visited him, not real. And this make Muhammad claim to be questionable, if Gabriel don't exist.

By knocking down the existence of jinns and angels, everything else that I find questionable in the Qur'an, makes the whole Qur'an fall apart.

the grave or tomb of Adam is the evidence that Adam did exist.

 

[outhouse]

the grave or tomb of Adam is the evidence that Adam did exist.

That's tomb has ZERO historicity as being biblical adams tomb.

It is not Abrahams either

 

[gnostic]

the grave or tomb of Adam is the evidence that Adam did exist.

What tomb are you are talking about use_your_brain? Where?

If you are going to say it is in Mecca, then I am going to have to assume you're sprouting propaganda.

There have been no evidence that any tomb has ever been associated with Adam.

 

[outhouse]

What tomb are you are talking about use_your_brain? Where?

If you are going to say it is in Mecca, then I am going to have to assume you're sprouting propaganda.

There have been no evidence that any tomb has ever been associated with Adam.

There is an eves tomb, that has no historicity.