How on earth can the Qur'an be considered the perfect book?

[FearGod]

That doesn't make sense. The oceans are on top of the land, not the land on the water. Its called the crust, which has water on top of it.

Lol, how you know which one is on the top of which.
The fact remains that most of earth is of water and our lands are on water.

 

[LuisDantas]

if they can't then stop comparing islam with other religions. I can prove that islam is correct.

This is really interesting. We are obviously working with clashing understandings of what is being discussed here.

 

[use_your_brain]

This is really interesting. We are obviously working with clashing understandings of what is being discussed here.

so please focus on Islam only. When I say: I believe islam is true, Quran is correct, dont try to compare it with other religions that believe in the same thing.

 

[LuisDantas]

so please focus on Islam only. When I say: I believe islam is true, Quran is correct, dont try to compare it with other religions that believe in the same thing.

Then why should I discuss whether Islam is true at all?

Why should I even attempt to consider whether a religion that makes a point of holding unlikely beliefs, is utterly theistic, considers disbelief a sin and has awful apologists could possibly be true?

Of course it is untrue.

Edited to add: I may as well add that it is also a religion that fails disastrously at reminding its adherents of the rather obvious need to treat homosexuality as normal and homosexuals as fully entitled citizens.

 

[FearGod]

How about the quote I just gave?


Is not He (better than your gods) Who has made the earth as a fixed abode, and has placed rivers in its midst, and has placed firm mountains therein, and has set a barrier between the two seas (of salt and sweet water). Is there any ilah (god) with Allah? Nay, but most of them know not.
Qur'an 27:61
(Is not He Who has made the earth as a fixed abode,) meaning, stable and stationary, so that it does not move or convulse, because if it were to do so, it would not be a good place for people to live on. But by His grace and mercy, He has made it smooth and calm, and it is not shaken or moved


What does the word "fixed" or "stable and stationary" mean to you? To me it means not moving, having no kinetic energy, unchanging, constant, etc. How does one have a spinning, fixed and stationary planet that orbits the sun?

This contradicts the fact that the earth moves quickly around the sun and the fact that earth has a wobble, and that earthquakes and a molten interior mean the earth does convulse and is churn constantly. Not to mention the interaction with the moon causes the earth to adjust. Even filling the three gorges dam in china cause the day to change by 1 microsecond. The earth is wobbling, spinning, churning, and speeding around the sun. What part of that seems like stationary, stable and a fixed abode?

The verse says that God made earth a fixed place for us to live in,IOW make it suitable
for us to live in, fixed for us and not fixed and a stationary planet, twisting the meaning
by such anti Islam websites is only understood by people who don't want to use their
own minds.

 

[LuisDantas]

It is not "twisting the meaning". It is pointing out how feeble the claim is.

Edited to add: complaining that some site or person is "anti-islam" is in effect no objection at all. I truly have to wonder why the attempt is even made.

It should not and does not matter whether someone is predisposed towards or against Islam. The arguments must stand or fall on their own merits.

 

[use_your_brain]

Then why should I discuss whether Islam is true at all?

Why should I even attempt to consider whether a religion that makes a point of holding unlikely beliefs, is utterly theistic, considers disbelief a sin and has awful apologists could possibly be true?

Of course it is untrue.

Edited to add: I may as well add that it is also a religion that fails disastrously at reminding its adherents of the rather obvious need to treat homosexuality as normal and homosexuals as fully entitled citizens.

"why should I discuss whether Islam is true?"
what should we discuss then?

 

[LuisDantas]

"why should I discuss whether Islam is true?"
what should we discuss then?

Why you believe it, mainly.

What you see as convincing in it, and more specifically in the Qur'an, that you might want other people to consider.

This thread, far as I understand its purpose, is asking for reasons not to dismiss claims about the perfection of the Qur'an as simply obviously wrong.

Telling us non-believers (I take it that "kafir" is the word?) that we can't prove it is wrong and that you believe it anyway is avoiding the matter completely.

We are not asking whether you have the means and the right to believe in it; you obviously do, and there is nothing we can do about that except perhaps attempt to convince you to reconsider.

But... how come so many people insist so fiercely in affirming the perfection and worth of such an obviously flawed book?

It is and probably will always be very difficult to understand, and harder to accept.

 

[use_your_brain]

Why you believe it, mainly.

What you see as convincing in it, and more specifically in the Qur'an, that you might want other people to consider.

This thread, far as I understand its purpose, is asking for reasons not to dismiss claims about the perfection of the Qur'an as simply obviously wrong.

Telling us non-believers (I take it that "kafir" is the word?) that we can't prove it is wrong and that you believe it anyway is avoiding the matter completely.

We are not asking whether you have the means and the right to believe in it; you obviously do, and there is nothing we can do about that except perhaps attempt to convince you to reconsider.

But... how come so many people insist so fiercely in affirming the perfection and worth of such an obviously flawed book?

It is and probably will always be very difficult to understand, and harder to accept.

I do believe in Islam because it is a true correct religion. If the Buddhism, Scientology, Mormon and so on were the true correct religions then I would believe in them as well. AND IF ANYONE ABLE TO PROVE THAT THEIR RELIGION WERE TRUE THAN ISLAM, THEN I WOULD LEAVE ISLAM AND EMBRACE THEIR RELIGION.

what I see as convincing in it? : logic, miracles, teaching, sciences, biography, tradition/records, quran, sufy, archaeology, history, prophecies, distinctness, and many things the list goes on.

I accept for a while that Quran is "not perfect". But i keep silent if any one ask my standpoint on the perfection of the Quran.

 

[LuisDantas]

I do believe in Islam because it is a true correct religion.

That much I know to be untrue. Islam is not even particularly convincing, let alone true or correct.

You may well believe it so, but that is really just something we kafirs will have to accept as part of reality: that you and over a billion other people believe in a demonstrably false religion.

That by no means makes it correct, nor true.

If the Buddhism, Scientology, Mormon and so on are the true correct religions then I would believe in them as well.

That is not even a question worth asking. There is no one "true, correct" religion, although many religions may be beneficial to specific people if practiced with enough wisdom and proper support.

Quite a few religions are all-out poisonous and should be discouraged by any reasonable means available.

People's beliefs matter, but not always in a pleasant way, nor in a way that implies that they should not be challenged, fiercely if necessary.

AND IF ANYONE ABLE TO PROVE THAT THEIR RELIGION WERE TRUE THAN ISLAM, THEN I WOULD LEAVE ISLAM AND EMBRACE THEIR RELIGION.

If you say so. I find the whole question difficult to even parse. Religion does not work like that. It is a very personal matter.

what I see as convincing in it? : logic, miracles, teaching, sciences, biography, tradition/records, quran, sufy, archaeology, history, prophecies, distinctness, and many things the list goes on.

I... I just don't know quite what to say. It boggles the mind.

I accept for a while that Quran is "not perfect". But i keep silent if any one ask my standpoint on the perfection of the Quran.

And keeping silent is a good thing, I assume, because...?

 

[use_your_brain]

That much I know to be untrue. Islam is not even particularly convincing, let alone true or correct.

You may well believe it so, but that is really just something we kafirs will have to accept as part of reality: that you and over a billion other people believe in a demonstrably false religion.

That by no means makes it correct, nor true.




That is not even a question worth asking. There is no one "true, correct" religion, although many religions may be beneficial to specific people if practiced with enough wisdom and proper support.

Quite a few religions are all-out poisonous and should be discouraged by any reasonable means available.

People's beliefs matter, but not always in a pleasant way, nor in a way that implies that they should not be challenged, fiercely if necessary.




If you say so. I find the whole question difficult to even parse. Religion does not work like that. It is a very personal matter.




I... I just don't know quite what to say. It boggles the mind.




And keeping silent is a good thing, I assume, because...?

But I can prove Islam is true. and how could you come to the claim that ".. I know to be untrue..." yet you deny the "true and false" term? you deny also to disprove Islam.

How could you say islam is untrue yet you don't know what the truthness criteria is?

 

[LuisDantas]

One question: how do you know and why do you expect a true religion to exist?

Why would it be one and just one?

Assuming that there is exactly one true, correct religion, would it even make sense for it to attempt to convince people of its worth from the merits of its scripture?

Assuming that to be the case, would vague prophecies that can be understood to have some measure of prediction power if one is feeling very generous even have a place in the arguments to support claims of its truth?

My answer to each and every one of those questions is a plain "no".

 

[LuisDantas]

But I can prove Islam is true. and how could you come to the claim that ".. I know to be untrue..." yet you deny the "true and false" term? you deny also to disprove Islam.

How could you say islam is untrue

Islam says that I am either a sinner due to my disbelief or else it (Islam) is wrong.

Therefore, Islam is wrong.

Edited to add: Were I uncertain of my acceptability to a hypothetical God due to my disbelief, I would still know Islam to be untrue because it fails to inspire nearly enough wisdom in its adherents. Would a true religion fail to encourage acceptance of homosexuals, for instance?

yet you don't know what the truthness criteria is?

Why do you think I do not know it?

 

[use_your_brain]

Islam says that I am either a sinner due to my disbelief or else it (Islam) is wrong.

Therefore, Islam is wrong.


Why do you think I do not know it?

All of us the sinners, except the forgiven one. Just because Quran entitles you as a disbeliever it doesn't mean the Quran is wrong. It is the fact that you disbelieve the religion, i.e. Islam.
Can you propose your personal criteria about the truth ?

 

[LuisDantas]

All of us the sinners, except the forgiven one. Just because Quran entitles you as a disbeliever it doesn't mean the Quran is wrong.

Actually, it does indeed mean that the Qur'an is wrong.

It is the fact that you disbelieve the religion, i.e. Islam.
Can you propose your personal criteria about the truth ?

When it comes to whether a supposed God has the right to brand me a sinner?

Yes, I sure can, and in fact I should.

 

[use_your_brain]

One question: how do you know and why do you expect a true religion to exist?

Why would it be one and just one?

Assuming that there is exactly one true, correct religion, would it even make sense for it to attempt to convince people of its worth from the merits of its scripture?

Assuming that to be the case, would vague prophecies that can be understood to have some measure of prediction power if one is feeling very generous even have a place in the arguments to support claims of its truth?

My answer to each and every one of those questions is a plain "no".

Only one true religion, it is Islam. It is what my religion teaches. not a joke.
people have brains they may use their brain to search the true religion they only need sincerity. Don't I say: I am ready to leave Islam if any religion true than Islam? are there any non muslims saying like what I say?
Islam has always the arguments to support its teaching. including prophecies.
better you examine instead of thinking that the answer is: no.

 

[LuisDantas]

Only one true religion, it is Islam.

Far from self-evident, that is probably not at all true.

It is what my religion teaches. not a joke.

It can be both.

people have brains they may use their brain to search the true religion they only need sincerity. Don't I say: I am ready to leave Islam if any religion true than Islam? are there any non muslims saying like what I say?

Actually yes, there are many. I don't see their point either. It just feels so misguided. Your criteria of "true religion" seem very off.

Islam has always the arguments to support its teaching. including prophecies.
better you examine instead of thinking that the answer is: no.

One can only hesitate to settle a matter for so long.

 

[use_your_brain]

Actually, it does indeed mean that the Qur'an is wrong.




When it comes to whether a supposed God has the right to brand me a sinner?

Yes, I sure can, and in fact I should.

why is entitling you as a disbeliever be considered wrong?
what is sin actually?

 

[use_your_brain]

Far from self-evident, that is probably not at all true.



It can be both.



Actually yes, there are many. I don't see their point either. It just feels so misguided. Your criteria of "true religion" seem very off.




One can only hesitate to settle a matter for so long.

Why do you think Islam is not a true religion?

 

[LuisDantas]

why is entitling you as a disbeliever be considered wrong?
what is sin actually?

A false concept, apparently.