How on earth can the Qur'an be considered the perfect book?

[The Emperor of Mankind]

Which problem? does the quran cause problems, how's that?

The problem of Islamists and their sympathisers wanting to make the whole world Muslim. Yes, it does. It contains verses encouraging Muslims to violence; especially against non-Muslims.

 

[FearGod]

The problem of Islamists and their sympathisers wanting to make the whole world Muslim. Yes, it does. It contains verses encouraging Muslims to violence; especially against non-Muslims.

The bible has, so what?

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

The bible has, so what?

Islam is claimed by Muslims as the complete religion; that the other Abrahamics have become corrupted and have lost the morality given by God - and that Islam has not. You can't, in one breath, claim that other religions are less moral than your own, then with another breath excuse your religion's horrible crimes because the immoral masses do it too. You've already put your beliefs up on a pedestal so you can't justify evil motivated by Islam by then pointing to what those beneath you do.

That's very hypocritical.

 

[use_your_brain]

Islam is claimed by Muslims as the complete religion; that the other Abrahamics have become corrupted and have lost the morality given by God - and that Islam has not. You can't, in one breath, claim that other religions are less moral than your own, then with another breath excuse your religion's horrible crimes because the immoral masses do it too. You've already put your beliefs up on a pedestal so you can't justify evil motivated by Islam by then pointing to what those beneath you do.

That's very hypocritical.

what do you mean less moral, horrible crimes and immoral masses?

 

[FearGod]

Islam is claimed by Muslims as the complete religion; that the other Abrahamics have become corrupted and have lost the morality given by God - and that Islam has not. You can't, in one breath, claim that other religions are less moral than your own, then with another breath excuse your religion's horrible crimes because the immoral masses do it too. You've already put your beliefs up on a pedestal so you can't justify evil motivated by Islam by then pointing to what those beneath you do.

That's very hypocritical.

Do you mean Christians don't believe that their religion is perfect? only Muslims believe their religion is perfect
and the others not? i don't really get your point.

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

what do you mean less moral,

Whatever adjectives you use to describe religions that are not Islam: degenerate, perverted, unclean, not teaching morality etc. According to Islam, previous revealed religions were sent from God through his messengers; and that with every nation prior, that message became corrupted, twisted and ultimately changed. As a result, any morality those religions might have instilled has since been lost because they have strayed from God's purity. Hence the necessity for God to send another messenger.

horrible crimes

Conversion by force, cultural genocide, slavery, marriage to and sex with children, treating women as chattels, war.

Basically, anything you'd view as horrible if it were done by non-Muslims to Muslims.

and immoral masses?

Non-Muslims.

 

[use_your_brain]

Whatever adjectives you use to describe religions that are not Islam: degenerate, perverted, unclean, not teaching morality etc. According to Islam, previous revealed religions were sent from God through his messengers; and that with every nation prior, that message became corrupted, twisted and ultimately changed. As a result, any morality those religions might have instilled has since been lost because they have strayed from God's purity. Hence the necessity for God to send another messenger.




Conversion by force, cultural genocide, slavery, marriage to and sex with children, treating women as chattels, war.

Basically, anything you'd view as horrible if it were done by non-Muslims to Muslims.




Non-Muslims.

so horrible, isn't it?

 

[FearGod]

Whatever adjectives you use to describe religions that are not Islam: degenerate, perverted, unclean, not teaching morality etc. According to Islam, previous revealed religions were sent from God through his messengers; and that with every nation prior, that message became corrupted, twisted and ultimately changed. As a result, any morality those religions might have instilled has since been lost because they have strayed from God's purity. Hence the necessity for God to send another messenger.




Conversion by force, cultural genocide, slavery, marriage to and sex with children, treating women as chattels, war.

Basically, anything you'd view as horrible if it were done by non-Muslims to Muslims.




Non-Muslims.

Which do you think more dangerous, horrible and immoral, the quran or the nuclear bombs?

 

[Shad]

I don't need to.

So you put forward a double standard then admit to it. Thanks for showing you are illogical.

So you rely on what the others told you, full stop.

Irrelevant as they are experts. Everyone relies on expertise other people have that they do not have themselves. When you take a car to a mechanic you rely on their expertise. When you go to a doctors you rely on their expertise. Anyone of these expertise can be learned if one has the time and is interested. However unlike your faith these expertise and the knowledge they use can be verified. Islam can not. So in the end you believe in something that can not be verified as people told you what to think while you or I could become evolutionary biologists if we wanted. Vast difference which you seem unable to grasp.

 

[Shad]

Would you please rephrase your statement, my son.

Take a few courses in English if you do not understand what I said. Your comprehension of English is lacking.

 

[Shad]

I can understand why you might think that, but actually it doesn't..

No the verse clearly shows this. Allah's love provides comprehension of religion.

Almighty God is spiritual, and our connection with Him is not straightforward. Our intentions and deeds has a direct bearing on the relationship. There isn't 'a switch' which God turns on and off .. we are responsible for our own destiny. ]/quote]

You contradict the linked verse, nothing more.

As I say above, it is not like that. If you dislike His guidance, then how can you expect to understand it or gain anything from it? You can't!

I reject the very idea the Quran is any sort of guidance from God or even authored by God. There is nothing to dislike as no one has yet to establish their scriptures are from God.

 

[Shad]

You do mean the Prophet simply repeated the previous true stories, right?

No. Some of the stories he repeated were myths such as ones involving Abraham, Moses and Joshua. Some were not stories but direct interaction with his environment such as marriage laws, age of maturity, etc. These can not be defined as true since these are subjective.

 

[Shad]

God made space and time when there wasn't.

To create something one needs time. Without time there is no point of not created to created. Temporal steps are required thus time must exist hence God never created time.

 

[gnostic]

If the Qur'an was a perfect book, there would be no chance of any misunderstanding.

A lof of the Muslims grew up with reading the Qur'an and spend years going over it, and yet Muslims disagree with each others over the interpretations of certain verses, just show the Qur'an isn't clear enough.

It is not just matter of education of Muslims, though that can be a factor too. It is the way the Qur'an is written. Often it is vague. And at other time, it spend too much time that if Allah was truly a real God and the true author of the Qur'an, then Allah spend too much times spent on praising himself in the third-person.

Like this for instance:

O Moses, indeed it is I - Allah , the Exalted in Might, the Wise."

Why would any God need to justify himself to anyone with self-praises?

Is one thing if Moses praised a god, but it is another thing that the author praise himself; it would be utterly egotistic and petty to praise one's self.

This is an example a god couldn't have written this silly holy book.

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

Do you mean Christians don't believe that their religion is perfect? only Muslims believe their religion is perfect
and the others not? i don't really get your point.

My point is that pointing out that members of other religions also do this:

• doesn't justify you doing it when you've already set yourself above & apart from them in terms of morality;
• doesn't alter or counter the fact that you do it. It still means you're thinking hypocritically.

so horrible, isn't it?

Yes.

Which do you think more dangerous, horrible and immoral, the quran or the nuclear bombs?

You could make arguments in either direction.

• Nuclear bombs can kill millions and injure millions more - plus the radiation they exude pollutes our world.
• The Quran lends justification to chaos, murder & war against non-Muslims. Islamists with nuclear weapons (or other WMDs) would be a nightmare scenario. The Quran would give them motivation to drop nuclear bombs on the infidel.
• Take away the nukes and Islamists can still kill millions - it just takes longer. Take away the Quran and you take away their primary motivation for doing so (with or without nukes). No Quran = no Islamists.

 

[FearGod]

My point is that pointing out that members of other religions also do this:

• doesn't justify you doing it when you've already set yourself above & apart from them in terms of morality;
• doesn't alter or counter the fact that you do it. It still means you're thinking hypocritically.

Being a Muslim doesn't mean that the atheist is immoral, where did you get that stupid idea from, also thinking
the quran as perfect for me doesn't mean it's perfect for you.

You could make arguments in either direction.

• Nuclear bombs can kill millions and injure millions more - plus the radiation they exude pollutes our world.
• The Quran lends justification to chaos, murder & war against non-Muslims. Islamists with nuclear weapons (or other WMDs) would be a nightmare scenario. The Quran would give them motivation to drop nuclear bombs on the infidel.
• Take away the nukes and Islamists can still kill millions - it just takes longer. Take away the Quran and you take away their primary motivation for doing so (with or without nukes). No Quran = no Islamists.

So the world war first and second and the hundreds of thousands who died in Japan and all the
wars in this world has been caused by the quran and the Islamists, what you have next?

 

[FearGod]

If the Qur'an was a perfect book, there would be no chance of any misunderstanding.

A lof of the Muslims grew up with reading the Qur'an and spend years going over it, and yet Muslims disagree with each others over the interpretations of certain verses, just show the Qur'an isn't clear enough.

It is not just matter of education of Muslims, though that can be a factor too. It is the way the Qur'an is written. Often it is vague. And at other time, it spend too much time that if Allah was truly a real God and the true author of the Qur'an, then Allah spend too much times spent on praising himself in the third-person.

Like this for instance:



Why would any God need to justify himself to anyone with self-praises?

Is one thing if Moses praised a god, but it is another thing that the author praise himself; it would be utterly egotistic and petty to praise one's self.

This is an example a god couldn't have written this silly holy book.

I see no problem for the many interpretations, people are free for how they want to understand the quran.
Regarding the Exalted in might, the wise is among the names of God.

 

[FearGod]

Take a few courses in English if you do not understand what I said. Your comprehension of English is lacking.

Okey my son.

 

[Shad]

Okey my son.

It is amusing to see you parrot your betters. Maybe you should extend this to enrolling in a post-secondary education program so you no longer need to parrot me but can develop your own arguments. After all I am not the one that is clueless that a period of no creation to creation requires times.

 

[FearGod]

To create something one needs time. Without time there is no point of not created to created. Temporal steps are required thus time must exist hence God never created time.

Time starts with the creation, God himself is beyond time.
Time existed before you was born, and when you die after some years then
your time ended but time do still exist.

I need to study English, did you understand what i said my son?