How on earth can the Qur'an be considered the perfect book?

[FearGod]

It is amusing to see you parrot your betters. Maybe you should extend this to enrolling in a post-secondary education program so you no longer need to parrot me but can develop your own arguments. After all I am not the one that is clueless that a period of no creation to creation requires times.

English problem again my son, please rephrase.

 

[Shad]

Time starts with the creation, God himself is beyond time.
Time existed before you was born, and when you die after some years then
your time ended but time do still exist.

To create something which was previously not there must include time. T=1 no creation to 5=2 creation. You argument is illogical as you example includes time before me and time after me yet you use special pleading for God. To even act in the form of creation is to show time as there would be a period in which the act was not even considered. Beside this problem there is also the one that without time you can not conclude God created anything. The universe could have created God as you need time to figure out a cause as causes precede the effect.

I need to study English, did you understand what i said my son?

It is obvious you do since you didn't understand a simple comment. Beside you are participating in a thread in which people are helping you with your English. If you didn't need help with English that thread wouldn't exist.

 

[Shad]

English problem again my son, please rephrase.

Go to your thread and ask people to translate for you as you need it.

You are just trolling due to the emotional reaction caused by pointing out your flawed arguments. Present better arguments so your feelings wont be hurt.

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

Being a Muslim doesn't mean that the atheist is immoral, where did you get that stupid idea from

I didn't say being Muslims caused atheists to be immoral. I said that Muslims claim Islam is moral because it stems from God who is the supreme moral authority. If you reject God (or the Muslim view of him) then you reject morality. That's just what I've seen various internet jihadists say.

also thinking
the quran as perfect for me doesn't mean it's perfect for you.

A book is either perfect or it's not. It can't be perfect and imperfect at the same time.

I'm actually relieved that you're smart enough to admit that the Quran isn't perfect for non-Muslims. Honestly, that's great. It's such a shame some of your fellow believers don't think that way.

So the world war first and second and the hundreds of thousands who died in Japan and all the
wars in this world has been caused by the quran and the Islamists, what you have next?

A serious suggestion that you either start trying to actually read my arguments or you take up an English reading course because I did not say the dead in World Wars 1 & 2 & all the wars since were killed by Islamists or the Quran.

You asked me what I thought was more horrible, dangerous & immoral. I told you what I thought - if I'd thought you had wanted a more objective answer I'd have gone with the Quran. Nuclear weapons have killed & injured hundreds of thousands. The Quran & the ideology it inspires has more than likely killed many many more over the hundreds of years they have existed. Sadly we can't know that with absolute certainty since census records which date to Islam's inception in Arabia & its subsequent expansionist phase don't exist - for any civilisation it encountered. But considering the number of times Islam spread as the result of conflict, it's fair to assume more than the two hundred thousand or so killed by the bombings of Hiroshima & Nagasaki.

 

[FearGod]

To create something which was previously not there must include time. T=1 no creation to 5=2 creation. You argument is illogical as you example includes time before me and time after me yet you use special pleading for God. To even act in the form of creation is to show time as there would be a period in which the act was not even considered. Beside this problem there is also the one that without time you can not conclude God created anything. The universe could have created God as you need time to figure out a cause as causes precede the effect.

The creation of the universe doesn't mean there was no time before it, for example time was existing while you weren't,
is't that hard for you to understand my son.

It is obvious you do since you didn't understand a simple comment. Beside you are participating in a thread in which people are helping you with your English. If you didn't need help with English that thread wouldn't exist.

Yes i'm learning English here.

 

[FearGod]

Go to your thread and ask people to translate for you as you need it.

You are just trolling due to the emotional reaction caused by pointing out your flawed arguments. Present better arguments so your feelings wont be hurt.

You reminded me with one of my favourite songs and the memories.

 

[FearGod]

I didn't say being Muslims caused atheists to be immoral. I said that Muslims claim Islam is moral because it stems from God who is the supreme moral authority. If you reject God (or the Muslim view of him) then you reject morality. That's just what I've seen various internet jihadists say.



A book is either perfect or it's not. It can't be perfect and imperfect at the same time.

I'm actually relieved that you're smart enough to admit that the Quran isn't perfect for non-Muslims. Honestly, that's great. It's such a shame some of your fellow believers don't think that way.




A serious suggestion that you either start trying to actually read my arguments or you take up an English reading course because I did not say the dead in World Wars 1 & 2 & all the wars since were killed by Islamists or the Quran.

You asked me what I thought was more horrible, dangerous & immoral. I told you what I thought - if I'd thought you had wanted a more objective answer I'd have gone with the Quran. Nuclear weapons have killed & injured hundreds of thousands. The Quran & the ideology it inspires has more than likely killed many many more over the hundreds of years they have existed. Sadly we can't know that with absolute certainty since census records which date to Islam's inception in Arabia & its subsequent expansionist phase don't exist - for any civilisation it encountered. But considering the number of times Islam spread as the result of conflict, it's fair to assume more than the two hundred thousand or so killed by the bombings of Hiroshima & Nagasaki.

Thank you my friend, good luck with your job.

 

[Corthos]

Dear lord.... All of this confusion and misinterpretation could have been avoided if the Quran were written in a clear and concise way without so much convoluted ambiguity. God should have just written it in the style of the 10 commandments so there would be no misunderstanding. =/ Surely, since he is omnipresent and exists in all times and is all wise, he would have known that people would take his message and misinterpret it in a way that would allow them to believe they were killing thousands upon thousands of people in his name, and were doing the right thing...

 

[Shad]

You reminded me with one of my favourite songs and the memories.

Emotions are the key reason why people act in irrational and illogical manners especially when it comes to religion. You should learn this and figure out why your religious bias and the emotion caused by it have blinded you.

 

[Shad]

The creation of the universe doesn't mean there was no time before it, for example time was existing while you weren't,
is't that hard for you to understand my son.

Again failing to understand my point. For God to do any act requires times. God must be subject to time to do anything, to think, to act.

Yes i'm learning English here.

Do it the thread specifically made to help you. This is not that thread. If you have issues understanding English than make the rational decision to avoid threads that are in English only.

 

[FearGod]

Emotions are the key reason why people act in irrational and illogical manners especially when it comes to religion. You should learn this and figure out why your religious bias and the emotion caused by it have blinded you.

I studied religion for years, i was an atheist as DS is now.
This is the one way ticket, as to die as a Muslim.
I don't hate you and i'll never hate anyone, we're only debating my son.
Good luck and forgive me if i was rude with you, "my son" was yours by the way
and i don't like to use it for whatever reason.

 

[Shad]

I studied religion for years, i was an atheist as DS is now.

Given your horrible arguments and demonstrated inability to conduct research I doubt your studies were of any worth.

This is the one way ticket, as to die as a Muslim.

Okay, so?

I don't hate you and i'll never hate anyone, we're only debating my son.

Never said you did. I said you have an emotional reaction to having your arguments exposed as flawed. This flaw is due to your not knowing what you are talking about. This is obvious since you now mimic me like a parrot like a troll.

Good luck and forgive me if i was rude with you, "my son" was yours by the way

Said mimic based on the fact that I had to directly tell you what I mean rather than you figuring out for yourself

and i don't like to use it for whatever reason.

No you just using it as a troll to cover you lack of coherent arguments while I use it after my arguments.

 

[gnostic]

Dear lord.... All of this confusion and misinterpretation could have been avoided if the Quran were written in a clear and concise way without so much convoluted ambiguity. God should have just written it in the style of the 10 commandments so there would be no misunderstanding. =/ Surely, since he is omnipresent and exists in all times and is all wise, he would have known that people would take his message and misinterpret it in a way that would allow them to believe they were killing thousands upon thousands of people in his name, and were doing the right thing...

It is not just the Qur'an, corthos. The problem is also Muhammad himself.

Muslims have always tried to follow their role model - Muhammad.

Muhammad and the Qur'an have taught his followers not to steal, and yet during 623-624 he began series of raids upon merchant caravans. Merchant caravans were traders, not an army of soldiers, so Muhammad and his followers were nothing more than highway bandits or pirates, looting and selling people as slaves.

And yet Muhammad rationalise and justify their actions as not stealing, by saying they were at war, so it is okay to kill, steal and sell war captives to slavery. Muslims now have loophole in the Qur'an, where there are justification for stealing, killing and slave trade.

Muslims often quote the Qur'an, and say not to start war, and only fight against enemies in self defence, but it is Muhammad himself who started the wars against Mecca, through his act of piracy, raiding Meccan trade caravans.

Raiding caravans are not self defence, because merchants are not soldiers.

Muhammad always try to justify his crime by hiding by his "prophethood" and behind his religion. So Muslims who commit crimes also tried to hide behind their religion. So if Muhammad can do these things, then it is okay to follow in his footsteps.

 

[FearGod]

It is not just the Qur'an, corthos. The problem is also Muhammad himself.

Muslims have always tried to follow their role model - Muhammad.

Muhammad and the Qur'an have taught his followers not to steal, and yet during 623-624 he began series of raids upon merchant caravans. Merchant caravans were traders, not an army of soldiers, so Muhammad and his followers were nothing more than highway bandits or pirates, looting and selling people as slaves.

And yet Muhammad rationalise and justify their actions as not stealing, by saying they were at war, so it is okay to kill, steal and sell war captives to slavery. Muslims now have loophole in the Qur'an, where there are justification for stealing, killing and slave trade.

Muslims often quote the Qur'an, and say not to start war, and only fight against enemies in self defence, but it is Muhammad himself who started the wars against Mecca, through his act of piracy, raiding Meccan trade caravans.

Raiding caravans are not self defence, because merchants are not soldiers.

Muhammad always try to justify his crime by hiding by his "prophethood" and behind his religion. So Muslims who commit crimes also tried to hide behind their religion. So if Muhammad can do these things, then it is okay to follow in his footsteps.

 

[Taylor Seraphim]

First let me just say, since I know people need to be explicitly told about nuance otherwise they rage hard, I'm not saying all Muslim's think the Qur'an is the perfect book or that they necessarily subscribe to what i'm saying here. Nevertheless, I've heard it multiple times from different Muslims that the Qur'an just has to be the perfect book.

I found it to consist of highly questionable stories and boring poetry. The same kind of stories and patterns tend to show up in other holy books too like the Bible and the Torah, which tells me that's its just a rehashing of these two faiths with a new spin and a new prophet. I also can't understand why Muhammad is supposed to be so great. He was a great military leader, but otherwise i don't see any reason why I should listen to him, over say Siddhartha.

Furthermore, I know some Muslims like to note that the Arabic writing in the true Qur'an is just so sophisticated and beautiful that it just has to be the perfect word of God. But a truly perfect book from God wouldn't rely on the language it was written in--the book would be perfect in all languages for the most part because that's part of what being perfect is--not subject to ambiguity.

However, if there was such a thing as a perfect book, I would spend all my free time reading it. I would just read it over and over again whenever I could because its perfect and would never get boring. Instead I got tired of the Qur'an very quickly; a perfect book would not bore me that fast. I couldn't hope to get through it and finish it at this point. Thus I think that Muslim's also don't think the Qur'an is the perfect book. Muslims are normal people who have many hobbies and do a variety of things other than reading their holy book or going to their Mosque. Why would Muslims have other hobbies if the Qur'an was the perfect book?

So basically i'm wondering what the criteria for a perfect book is and how exactly the Qur'an fits that description. Also, why do you accept the validity of the Qur'an and Muhammad over the Bible and Jesus Christ Muslims? Personally if I was going to pick a prophet it would be the son of God instead of a warlord who consummated a marriage with a little girl. Also one final question: why do some Muslims consider themselves to be a race? That's just silly.

Yeah for double standards.

I think I am going to keep both books in the dark fantasy section until further notice.

 

[serp777]

The quran is for the ones who believe on it, why to read physics while you have no interest on physics.
Yes Islam is everywhere and it'll always be, you can't stop it.

At least and as to be a good debater you should study the language of the quran and not just depending
on the experts, the verse which we discussed was translated by some other experts as "a place to settle",
where as you want it to be a stationary earth while you're ignorant about the language of the quran,
How can you judge which is right and which is wrong, i can but you can't.

The quran isn't for you, my advise to you to read more about evolution, that'll be better for you.

Thanks so much for your incredible advice. To bad its such a laughable red herring. And again, how could I possibly ever learn more than what the experts who spend their lives studying this? What would be the point in trying to translate for myself and provide my own interpretation? But anyways at the minimum you have to agree that given the fact that there are so many translations and different meanings by so many different people and experts demonstrates how ambiguous the quran is. Is the quran that ambiguous? Is the perfect book supposed to be unclear and easy to misinterpret? MAybe since it avoids contradictions more easily--

 

[outhouse]

Muslims have always tried to follow their role model - Muhammad.

Its like a warriors plagiarized guide to the Abrahamic religion.

 

[gnostic]

How does raiding and robbing merchant caravans amount to being good role model, FearGod?

That's exactly what Muhammad did in 624, didn't he?

Are you denying that he wasn't their leader when he raid and loot the caravans?

Did Muhammad not lead army, take loots, sell people into slavery or demanded ransom for war captives?

Did Muhammad not accept slave after capturing the stronghold of the Banu Qurayza? Did he not marry her?

The Qur'an condone slave trade, and Muhammad and his followers never stop the practice.

Until 40-50 years ago, slave trades were still legal in some Muslim-majority countries.

 

[FearGod]

How does raiding and robbing merchant caravans amount to being good role model, FearGod?

That's exactly what Muhammad did in 624, didn't he?

Are you denying that he wasn't their leader when he raid and loot the caravans?

Did Muhammad not lead army, take loots, sell people into slavery or demanded ransom for war captives?


Did Muhammad not accept slave after capturing the stronghold of the Banu Qurayza? Did he not marry her?


The Qur'an condone slave trade, and Muhammad and his followers never stop the practice.

Until 40-50 years ago, slave trades were still legal in some Muslim-majority countries.

Prove that such events had happened ?

 

[gnostic]

Prove that such events had happened ?

Read the Islamic biography and history of Muhammad, particularly to the events leading up to the Battle of Badr (624).

All sources come from Muslims, from traditions (hadiths) and from biographies. Whether the Muslims' accounts of the raid (623 - 624) and the battle (Badr, 624) were reliable or not, is something that you have to ask yourself.

Look it up yourself.