How to stop all thoughts for good.

[Aupmanyav]

.. since enlightenment is transcending time/space or the mind that perceives time/space; ..

IMHO, enlightenment is understanding. One does not transcend time/space. Remains much like before, carrying water and sweeping floor.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

IMHO, enlightenment is understanding. One does not transcend time/space. Remains much like before, carrying water and sweeping floor.

Interesting understanding of the reality represented by the concept of enlightenment in the context of religion...it seems more like the popular usage as in ego claims.

Anyone who claims to be enlightened is a dead giveaway that they are far from enlightenment as the REAL is transcendent as zenzero pointed out and can't be realized by a human brain functioning in conceptual terms...ever.

However if you want to believe you are enlightened conceptually, go for your life,,,but it's not the enlightenment that religious aspirants are dedicating their lives to REALize.

 

[DreadFish]

Interesting understanding of the reality represented by the concept of enlightenment in the context of religion...it seems more like the popular usage as in ego claims.

Anyone who claims to be enlightened is a dead giveaway that they are far from enlightenment as the REAL is transcendent as zenzero pointed out and can't be realized by a human brain functioning in conceptual terms...ever.

However if you want to believe you are enlightened conceptually, go for your life,,,but it's not the enlightenment that religious aspirants are dedicating their lives to REALize.

What do you make of the whole thing where the Buddha straightforwardly and repeatedly states that he is fully awakened?

 

[Ben Dhyan]

What do you make of the whole thing where the Buddha straightforwardly and repeatedly states that he is fully awakened?

After Siddartha Gautama realized 'enlightenment', in trying to convey to the unenlightened the state of 'enlightenment', he told them, among other things, that it is a state of full awakening, ie. transcendence.....a non-dual state beyond ego's conceptually limited 3D space time awareness.

Btw, after Jesus realized 'enlightenment', in trying to convey to the unenlightened the state of 'enlightenment', he said, among other things, "the Father and I are one", ie. a transcendent state of non-duality.

But to get back on topic...only when the mind is still and free from all thought, will the veil that obscures the hidden mystery of enlightenment begin to lift. The veil that obscures the REAL is none other than the mind in thought, thoughts are the 'noise' that prevents the mind's true 'hearing' of the sacred sound of the 'silence' of the underlying unity of existence.

 

[zenzero]

Friend Aupmanyav,
IMHO, enlightenment is understanding. One does not transcend time/space. Remains much like before, carrying water and sweeping floor.
Friend ben has explained what Gautma and Jesus said on enlightenment and explained in his own way as below:

The veil that obscures the REAL is none other than the mind in thought, thoughts are the 'noise' that prevents the mind's true 'hearing' of the sacred sound of the 'silence' of the underlying unity of existence.

You may also know that when your mind is silent the sound of silence or anahata naad is heard which in its final stage is heard as OM or AUM.

Kindly read another thread am posting under Hinduism.

Love & rgds

 

[DreadFish]

After Siddartha Gautama realized 'enlightenment', in trying to convey to the unenlightened the state of 'enlightenment', he told them, among other things, that it is a state of full awakening, ie. transcendence.....a non-dual state beyond ego's conceptually limited 3D space time awareness.

Btw, after Jesus realized 'enlightenment', in trying to convey to the unenlightened the state of 'enlightenment', he said, among other things, "the Father and I are one", ie. a transcendent state of non-duality.

But to get back on topic...only when the mind is still and free from all thought, will the veil that obscures the hidden mystery of enlightenment begin to lift. The veil that obscures the REAL is none other than the mind in thought, thoughts are the 'noise' that prevents the mind's true 'hearing' of the sacred sound of the 'silence' of the underlying unity of existence.

I think you successfully dodged my question

This isn't a debate place, so I will avoid responding contrary to your post, though I disagree with a couple of points you presented.

 

[Ravi500]

After all, who is going to get all this Advancement ? Mind! ?
ha ha ha ha ha

This question is really a valid question, spiritually of great importance.

One asked such a similar question sincerely and honestly, going all the way, and became enlightened in the process.

Ramana also recommended self-enquiry as the means to awaken to the Self.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ramana_Maharshi#cite_note-FOOTNOTEEbert2006202-213-16

http://davidgodman.org/rteach/whoami1.shtml

Ramana Maharshi - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[George-ananda]

After all, who is going to get all this Advancement ? Mind! ?
ha ha ha ha ha

The advancement will be spirit (which is the real you) liberating itself from the level of the mind.

 

[zenzero]

Friend DreadFish,

Buddha straightforwardly and repeatedly states that he is fully awakened?

Friend ben having 'dodged' your query as you state; could you share what those words were? Personally am ignorant of it.

Love & rgds

 

[chinu]

The advancement will be spirit (which is the real you) liberating itself from the level of the mind.

The word Spirit, or Soul is used for the thing which never, ever need any kind of advancement. Its already advanced in itself by all the means.

 

[zenzero]

Friend chinu,

The word Spirit, or Soul is used for the thing which never, ever need any kind of advancement. Its already advanced in itself by all the means.

If friend Geoge-ananda is understood he is not saying that the soul/spirit is not advanced. All he is pointing is that if time is taken as a factor then with time the spirit which lies within the human body gets liberated. Of course it is understood that such men are enlightened.

Love & rgds

 

[chinu]

Friend chinu,


If friend Geoge-ananda is understood he is not saying that the soul/spirit is not advanced. All he is pointing is that if time is taken as a factor then with time the spirit which lies within the human body gets liberated. Of course it is understood that such men are enlightened.

Love & rgds

But, according to me that is the advancement of Mind rather than Soul, or its just the advancement of Mind which lies within the body. Otherwise mind itself is not a conscious stuff, Mind is like a dodder plant which has no roots but grows around the tree/soul by taking food from it.

 

[George-ananda]

The word Spirit, or Soul is used for the thing which never, ever need any kind of advancement. Its already advanced in itself by all the means.

Friend chinu,


If friend Geoge-ananda is understood he is not saying that the soul/spirit is not advanced. All he is pointing is that if time is taken as a factor then with time the spirit which lies within the human body gets liberated. Of course it is understood that such men are enlightened.

Love & rgds

But, according to me that is the advancement of Mind rather than Soul, or its just the advancement of Mind which lies within the body. Otherwise mind itself is not a conscious stuff, Mind is like a dodder plant which has no roots but grows around the tree/soul by taking food from it.

Good thoughts my friends, let me clarify.

Spirit = Brahman = Atma = Paratman = Unchanging

Soul is a temporary body on the Causal plane of nature that advances through incarnations on the physical and astral planes.

The spirit never changes or advances. However, spirit when reflected through a body or is under the influence of Maya/Illusion (the sense that the body is the only real). By practices, like stopping the chattering physical mind temporarily, the soul (higher self) and eventually pure unchanging spirit can be experienced. The power to control the mind comes from the soul/Higher Self and the soul is advanced and strengthened by the practice. If that soul needs another physical incarnation it will have greater control over that next incarnation and that next incarnation will have a more spiritual outlook.

If there are any learned theistic advaitans out there I would be grateful to hear if anything I said should be corrected.

 

[Straw Dog]

To clarify and test the resonance of personal understanding:

The normal mode of operation for regular people is self-forgetting, or running on automatic, in which we are bound to habitual ways of thinking, feeling, and behaving. Consciousness means "that with which we know". To be conscious means to be self-remembering, or to act with deliberation. We cultivate greater self-determination through mindfulness and concentration.

Then there is a third stage beyond self-forgetting and self-remembering. It doesn't end with just becoming knowingly attentive to everyday life experience. Consciousness unfolds further. This involves the boundaries between the "self-in-here" and the "world-out-there" beginning to dissolve. As we refine our precision, consciousness becomes an integrated flow and opens the capacity for experiencing the totality of existence.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

To clarify and test the resonance of personal understanding:

Consciousness unfolds further. This involves the boundaries between the "self-in-here" and the "world-out-there" beginning to dissolve. As we refine our precision, consciousness becomes an integrated flow and opens the capacity for experiencing the totality of existence.

Here's the rub...the ego "self in here" evolved as such as a result of perception of the totality of existence of which it was an indivisible part, as a "world out there" separate from itself. Since it experiences itself as separate from the whole of existence, it can't ever realize the state of awareness of the whole of existence.

When the mind ceases all conceptual brain activity, the ego simultaneously ceases to arise...hence the subsequent state of non-duality present is not experienced by the ego mind. When the mind begins to think again, it is because the ego has arisen to interrupt the mind's non-dual state and, as in the case of probably all novices, the ego claims the experience. As to the question of what and who is present when the mind is still and in a state of non-duality?....there is a mystical saying that God can only reveal God to God alone!

 

[zenzero]

Friend George-ananda,

Yes, you have explained it rightly.


Love & rgds

 

[zenzero]

Friend ben,

When the mind ceases all conceptual brain activity, the ego simultaneously ceases to arise...hence the subsequent state of non-duality present is not experienced by the ego mind. When the mind begins to think again, it is because the ego has arisen to interrupt the mind's non-dual state and, as in the case of probably all novices, the ego claims the experience. As to the question of what and who is present when the mind is still and in a state of non-duality?....there is a mystical saying that God can only reveal God to God alone!

Hahahaha!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
liked that saying: 'God can only reveal God to God alone'!

Love & rgds

 

[Aupmanyav]

Consciousness unfolds further. This involves the boundaries between the "self-in-here" and the "world-out-there" beginning to dissolve. As we refine our precision, consciousness becomes an integrated flow and opens the capacity for experiencing the totality of existence.

It also involves "this-self-out-there" and "that-self-out-there", basically, all dualities dissolving. That is "advaita".

When the mind begins to think again, it is because the ego has arisen to interrupt the mind's non-dual state and, as in the case of probably all novices, the ego claims the experience.

IMHO, enlightenment is the state of 'advaita' (non-duality) even when the mind begins to think again. I could say the consciousness of non-duality. Comes with practice. Can one be without thoughts all the time? That would be 'maha-samadhi'.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

IMHO, enlightenment is the state of 'advaita' (non-duality) even when the mind begins to think again. I could say the consciousness of non-duality. Comes with practice. Can one be without thoughts all the time? That would be 'maha-samadhi'.

Maha-samadhi*** is enlightenment...there is no other enlightenment. Thinking involves a thinker and thoughts...in such a case, the thinker is the subject and the thinker's thoughts are the object. There can't be a thinker without thoughts, nor thoughts without a thinker....it follows then that thinking must always involve duality.

If you can provide an example of your mind thinking in a state of non-duality, it would help clarify where you are coming from.

***

Mahasamdhi

Maha-samadhi......An enlightened or realized yogi is one who has attained the nondual state of nirvikalpa samadhi where duality of subject and object are resolved and the yogi becomes permanently established in the unity of full enlightenment.

 

[DreadFish]

Friend DreadFish,

Friend ben having 'dodged' your query as you state; could you share what those words were? Personally am ignorant of it.

Love & rgds

The Buddha refers to himself, the Tathagata, as "the worthy one, the rightly self-awakened one" or "the worthy, rightly self-awakened one" variously, in different Pali suttas.

Then there is the story in the Ariyapariyesana Sutta of the Buddha meeting Upaka on the road to Varanasi.

"Then, having stayed at Uruvela as long as I liked, I set out to wander by stages to Varanasi. Upaka the Ajivaka saw me on the road between Gaya and the (place of) Awakening, and on seeing me said to me, 'Clear, my friend, are your faculties. Pure your complexion, and bright. On whose account have you gone forth? Who is your teacher? In whose Dhamma do you delight?'

"When this was said, I replied to Upaka the Ajivaka in verses:


'All-vanquishing,
all-knowing am I,
with regard to all things,
unadhering.
All-abandoning,
released in the ending of craving:
having fully known on my own,
to whom should I point as my teacher? [4]

I have no teacher,
and one like me can't be found.
In the world with its devas,
I have no counterpart.

For I am an arahant in the world;
I, the unexcelled teacher.
I, alone, am rightly self-awakened.
Cooled am I, unbound.

To set rolling the wheel of Dhamma
I go to the city of Kasi.
In a world become blind,
I beat the drum of the Deathless.'

"'From your claims, my friend, you must be an infinite conqueror.'


'Conquerors are those like me
who have reached fermentations' end.
I've conquered evil qualities,
and so, Upaka, I'm a conqueror.'

"When this was said, Upaka said, 'May it be so, my friend,' and — shaking his head, taking a side-road — he left.