How to stop all thoughts for good.

[Rick O'Shez]

Thoughts are just thoughts. The problem is taking them too seriously.

 

[zenzero]

Friend DreadFish,

Thank you for that text and link.

Love & rgds

 

[Ben Dhyan]

The Buddha refers to himself, the Tathagata, as "the worthy one, the rightly self-awakened one" or "the worthy, rightly self-awakened one" variously, in different Pali suttas.

Then there is the story in the Ariyapariyesana Sutta of the Buddha meeting Upaka on the road to Varanasi.

So who was speaking Dreadfish...Siddartha Gautama or Buddha?

So to be clear, when Siddartha realized enlightenment, his mind went from one of conceptual thinking to one of non-dual awareness, a state which is called Buddhahood.

Are you suggesting that the post-enlightenment physical mind of Siddartha Gautama is the same as the pre-enlightenment state, in that the 'I' is still the source of what is spoken?

 

[DreadFish]

So who was speaking Dreadfish...Siddartha Gautama or Buddha?

So to be clear, when Siddartha realized enlightenment, his mind went from one of conceptual thinking to one of non-dual awareness, a state which is called Buddhahood.

Are you suggesting that the post-enlightenment physical mind of Siddartha Gautama is the same as the pre-enlightenment state, in that the 'I' is still the source of what is spoken?

I think you're splitting hairs here and bringing another element to the discussion that is unnecessary and makes things more complicated.

Here you said:

Interesting understanding of the reality represented by the concept of enlightenment in the context of religion...it seems more like the popular usage as in ego claims.

Anyone who claims to be enlightened is a dead giveaway that they are far from enlightenment as the REAL is transcendent as zenzero pointed out and can't be realized by a human brain functioning in conceptual terms...ever.

Which was in response to this:

IMHO, enlightenment is understanding. One does not transcend time/space. Remains much like before, carrying water and sweeping floor.

And in my last post, the quotes attributed to the Buddha show him clearly stating things such as:

'All-vanquishing,
all-knowing am I,
...
For I am an arahant in the world;
I, the unexcelled teacher.
I, alone, am rightly self-awakened.
Cooled am I, unbound.
...
'Conquerors are those like me
who have reached fermentations' end.
I've conquered evil qualities,
and so, Upaka, I'm a conqueror.'

Keeping this simple, you said that someone claiming enlightenment is a dead giveaway that they are not enlightened, I asked you what you thought of the fact that the Buddha clearly claimed to be awakened and then presented you with a sutta showing you one of the claims. You never answered my question in reply to either of my posts, and I do not understand why.

To quickly cover what you just asked about whether the state of mind of the Buddha was the same, post-enlightenment, as it was pre-enlightenment, there is obviously no way to tell, because it's a story. Likewise, when addressing the post by Aupmanyav, there is not much of a way to tell by the few words he said, because it's just text in a post on the internet.

 

[Straw Dog]

Could it just be understood as a different form of conceptualizing or thinking?

For instance, we'd like to think that our reasoning processes belong to us alone, but really we tend to build off reasoning processes that began before us in culture. It would be understood that this thought does not belong to me, but is an expression of the greater system, like integrated conceptualizing.

 

[zenzero]

Friends,

It just needs each one to reach the state to fully understand and interpret what Gautama Buddha meant besides we are not sure if the translators were buddhas themselves and if they got the story right??

Besides our minds will color any story our mind is tuned to.
None is perfect at best we all are walking towards such a state.

We know how some who declared themselves to be enlightened and how Mansur Al Hillaj a sufi saint was executed by the then Caliph for claiming ' Anā l-Ḥaqq "I am The Truth'.
Jesus too had claimed to be 'Son of God'.

Most enlightened men possibly never declared openly so as not to allow their serpant minds to raise its hood back. Whatever be it finally it all remains a story till we our selves have reached to the supreme understanding.

Love & rgds

 

[Straw Dog]

What if enlightenment cannot be isolated to individuals? Like it doesn't make any sense to say that he or she is totally enlightened? What if genuine enlightenment is more of a collective realization? The Buddha had to share his experiences and spread his teachings in order to more fully realize enlightenment through the awakening of others. It was an act of compassion, but also a necessity for his own continued growth.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

I think you're splitting hairs here and bringing another element to the discussion that is unnecessary and makes things more complicated.

Here you said:



Which was in response to this:



And in my last post, the quotes attributed to the Buddha show him clearly stating things such as:



Keeping this simple, you said that someone claiming enlightenment is a dead giveaway that they are not enlightened, I asked you what you thought of the fact that the Buddha clearly claimed to be awakened and then presented you with a sutta showing you one of the claims. You never answered my question in reply to either of my posts, and I do not understand why.

To quickly cover what you just asked about whether the state of mind of the Buddha was the same, post-enlightenment, as it was pre-enlightenment, there is obviously no way to tell, because it's a story. Likewise, when addressing the post by Aupmanyav, there is not much of a way to tell by the few words he said, because it's just text in a post on the internet.

Ok Dreadfish...this is drifting, we will have to agree to disagree and return to topic, being a DIR forum thread and all.

 

[DreadFish]

What if enlightenment cannot be isolated to individuals? Like it doesn't make any sense to say that he or she is totally enlightened? What if genuine enlightenment is more of a collective realization? The Buddha had to share his experiences and spread his teachings in order to more fully realize enlightenment through the awakening of others. It was an act of compassion, but also a necessity for his own continued growth.

This is an interesting idea, because there are often stories of people's awareness changing by simply being in the presence of a master. This sort of thing happened a lot with Ramana Maharshi, just being in his presence reduced people's mental barriers, and sometimes he would just look into someone's eyes and things would change in them.

Ok Dreadfish...this is drifting, we will have to agree to disagree and return to topic, being a DIR forum thread and all.

You could have just answered my question to begin with

 

[Ben Dhyan]

This is an interesting idea, because there are often stories of people's awareness changing by simply being in the presence of a master. This sort of thing happened a lot with Ramana Maharshi, just being in his presence reduced people's mental barriers, and sometimes he would just look into someone's eyes and things would change in them.



You could have just answered my question to begin with

I did in my post #102, but you didn't understand what was said to you...I further referred you to my post #112 in frubal comment to you as an explanation that may help you understand with an invitation to PM me if you wanted to discuss the matter further but so far you have not responded...that's fine, please understand that some of the more esoteric aspects of religious practice require prerequisite understanding and there is no amount of conceptual communication that can overcome a lack of that.

 

[zenzero]

Friend Straw Dog,

What if enlightenment cannot be isolated to individuals? Like it doesn't make any sense to say that he or she is totally enlightened? What if genuine enlightenment is more of a collective realization? The Buddha had to share his experiences and spread his teachings in order to more fully realize enlightenment through the awakening of others. It was an act of compassion, but also a necessity for his own continued growth.

True except a small difference that enlightenment could also open higher evolutionary cycles towards which the enlightened soul could be addressing [guessing]. Not every buddha helped in flowering of others around with their direct presence.

Love & rgds

 

[DreadFish]

I did in my post #102, but you didn't understand what was said to you...I further referred you to my post #112 in frubal comment to you as an explanation that may help you understand with an invitation to PM me if you wanted to discuss the matter further but so far you have not responded...that's fine, please understand that some of the more esoteric aspects of religious practice require prerequisite understanding and there is no amount of conceptual communication that can overcome a lack of that.

Ok, I guess we've had a miscommunication from the beginning. I didnt understand how your first answer reconciled the fact that the Buddha claimed awakening with your statement that anyone claiming enlightenment is a sign that they are not enlightened, and I didnt PM you because I didn't realize it would go on this long.

Alright, we'll move on.

Friend Straw Dog,



True except a small difference that enlightenment could also open higher evolutionary cycles towards which the enlightened soul could be addressing [guessing]. Not every buddha helped in flowering of others around with their direct presence.

Love & rgds

Though, I do think there may be something to a person changing other's awareness just by being enlightened.

Ramana said that the greatest service you can render the world is to awaken yourself. I think that there may be a subtle effect that an awakened person will have on the environment, including people.

It's another part of the whole which is no longer asleep.

 

[zenzero]

Friend Straw Dog,

It's another part of the whole which is no longer asleep.

absolutely right and what was pointing towards that this can happen by being anywhere even far from people as the whole cosmos gets affected and this is what the turning of the buddha wheel is all about and we can term it the evolutionary change [not sure what is the exact term/label] meaning that humans have evolved from a single cell to human being and this being has crossed that evolutionary stage of being in human form and guess the next stage is super human who can take any form at any time just by wishing [guess].

Love & rgds

 

[paradigm13]

Interesting thread! Reminds me a lot of mooji.

 

[Aupmanyav]

'All-vanquishing,
all-knowing am I,
...
For I am an arahant in the world;
I, the unexcelled teacher.
I, alone, am rightly self-awakened.
Cooled am I, unbound.
...
'Conquerors are those like me
who have reached fermentations' end.
I've conquered evil qualities,
and so, Upaka, I'm a conqueror.'

I do not believe Buddha said all that. That would be 'aham', 'dambha', pride. I don't take Buddha to be that. Stating in a matter of fact way that he has found the key to a more-satisfying knowledge is OK. It must be a later Mahayana sutta.

 

[Aupmanyav]

The NO-mind does not arise by stopping thinking, when the thinking is no more, the No-mind is. But even if one manages to stop the thinking forcibly, it will not be an achievement at all, it is only a sort of stillness, not silence. Underneath it, deep in the unconscious, the repressed mind goes on working. So, there is no way to stop the mind. But the mind stops - that is certain. It stops of its own accord.

Another perspective - we think because we have questions. If we have no questions, there would not be a need to think. An enlightened realized person is in that state. He/she has no more questions, therefore no thinking, no seeking of answers.

 

[Aupmanyav]

If you can provide an example of your mind thinking in a state of non-duality, it would help clarify where you are coming from.

There is one more fun meaning of 'maha-samadhi' and that is death. 'so and so swami has taken maha-samadhi'. In 'maha-samadhi', no one would think of anything. If we have to think of non-duality, we have to do it in this life.

 

[zenzero]

Friend Aupmanyav,

Another perspective - we think because we have questions. If we have no questions, there would not be a need to think. An enlightened realized person is in that state. He/she has no more questions, therefore no thinking, no seeking of answers.

Are you in control of your thoughts?
Do you know where thoughts arises from??
Mediate over it!

It is not simple arithmetic like plus and minus
Thought PLUS is MIND
Thought Minus is no-mind.

Love & rgds

 

[Aupmanyav]

Thoughts arise from questions, uncertainties, anxieties, desires, etc. I do not make simple arithmetic into quantum mechanics.

 

[Ravi500]

Could it just be understood as a different form of conceptualizing or thinking?

For instance, we'd like to think that our reasoning processes belong to us alone, but really we tend to build off reasoning processes that began before us in culture. It would be understood that this thought does not belong to me, but is an expression of the greater system, like integrated conceptualizing.

An ancient enlightened master in the name of Rishi Vasistha taught Rama the following teaching ...


'Consciousness minus conceptualisation is the eternal Brahman the absolute; consciousness plus conceptualisation is thought.'


J.Krishnamurti stated thus, ' Only when thought ends is there truth. '




It is with the cessation of all thoughts and being established in a non-dual state of awareness that one attains enlightenment.



The reasoning process , through intuition, becomes much more efficient in this state.

Awareness is experiencing from moment to moment. Reason acts quickly in awareness, a thousand times faster than thought, and you do not even notice it is operating. -- Barry Long