Huge gap between humans and animals

[Milton Platt]

Comparing sizes is meaningless, ants are very tiny and the blue whale is extremely large,
different size that all species have, some are tiny and others are bigger, but humans
are unique in their way of life in this planet.

As is all other species......

 

[FearGod]

As is all other species......

Then you can't see it.

 

[FearGod]

FG, Yes, such things are simple, so why do you not understand despite a dozen explanations and at least one educational link. Are you ignoring these, are you willfully ignorant, or just obtuse?
The mechanisms of evolution do not require intention. They will work automatically. So why are you insisting that there is planner? Occam's razor - Wikipedia

There is no evidence of a planner. There is no need of a planner. There is reason to believe a planner so technologically sophisticated could do a better job of design. Even a first year engineering student could make many major improvements.

Just because something occurs without plan or intention doesn't mean it happens by "accident and chance." Why do you think this?

You see chemical reactions every day, and mechanical interactions. If you drop a vase it will fall, and break -- by natural, automatic laws of physics.
If you put salt in water it will dissolve -- by natural, automatic laws of chemistry.
These all happen without any divine intervention. Why is evolution any different?

You're the one obtuse and not me, as you're rude then discussion with you won't be a courteous one.

 

[FearGod]

So are you saying that all life is seen as equal?

How equal, chickens are living to be slaughtered, millions of chickens are killed
in daily basis, no future and no gaol other than being a source for egg and meat.

 

[tas8831]

DNA is a chemical structure.

No, it is a molecule.

Mix any two and you get a chemical variation.

Any 2 what?

You are a variation of your parents DNA mixing, they are a variation of their parents DNA mixing, and so on. No mutations needed.

If that were so, where did your parents and their -parents have anything TO 'mix'? If no mutations were 'needed', than all this 'mixing' should only be mixing the same things over and over.

Dad: ATCGTGCTAGTCG
Mom: ATCGTGCTAGTCG
mix mix mix
Child: ATCGTGCTAGTCG

Mutations HAPPEN, needed or not. Basic biology.

 

[tas8831]

I never said mutations are from mixing of DNA. That's variation.

You said no mutations needed. There would be nothing TO mix without mutations.

 

[tas8831]

Of your 23 pairs of chromosomes, each pair is made up of one from each parent. A mix of both. You are a variation of your parents. No mutation needed.

Mutation needed to get the variation in the first place.

Are you denying that mutations occur?

 

[Polymath257]

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1. Personal Comments About Members and Staff
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[tas8831]

DNA is a chemical structure, nothing more. Anything you want to say it does or is responsible for is due to chemical reactions

Great. That has no bearing on your implications being quite wrong.

 

[tas8831]

Life itself is nothing but a mix of chemicals and a collection of chemical reactions. There is no magic involved.

True. Only one side in this debate posits magic, and it is not those that understand and accept the evidence for evolution.

 

[tas8831]

When talking "specifics" you're talking about purpose and goals.

What on earth are you talking about?

 

[tas8831]

In somatic cells there are two allels for every gene. One allele comes from each parent

Yes.
But in the human population, there can be hundreds or thousands of alleles. Any 1 person has 2 per locus, but humans as a species have many more than that. If as you seem to think, all extant variation arose by mere "mixing", and I gather from some other comments that you accept the Adam and Eve story, how on earth can you think that no mutations producing all of those alleles that 'mix'?
If what you believe (Adam and Eve) had merit, then we should ALL - ALL humans - be virtually identical.
How can you not understand this?

 

[Polymath257]

I never said mutations are from mixing of DNA. That's variation.

Half of DNA from each parent. A mixture as I said.

But it is NOT a mixture! Let me give a simple example. If you mix the gases hydrogen and oxygen, what you have is complete hydrogen molecules and complete oxygen molecules. They maintain their own identity. That is what happens in a mixture.

When those two gases combine chemically, you get water. You no longer have individual molecules of hydrogen nor individual molecules of oxygen. In the water molecules, both hydrogen and oxygen appear, but they are bonded together. That is what happens when you have a compound as opposed to a mixture.

In the DNA from parents, the two parental strands are interweaved, producing a pair of completely new strands. The new DNA is not the same as that of either parent. In addition, there are also mutations, which change the characteristics of the child strands.

A child does NOT get a mixing of the DNA of the parents. The parental DNA does NOT maintain an identity in the child DNA. Furthermore, in addition to the crossing over, there are mutations, which add to variation in individual genes.

Crossing over does NOT add to variation in genes. It keeps the same genes and redistributes them to the children. Mutations, however, *do* add to variation, producing new alleles in those genes.

You are a mixture of your parents, a variation of your parents.

Mixture or merger. You can't have salt unless you put them together.

Yes, but a mixture is not the same as a compound and neither are the same as what happens in genetics.

 

[Polymath257]

In somatic cells there are two allels for every gene. One allele comes from each parent

Well, there can also be multiple copies of the same gene in the genome, sometimes with more than two alleles appearing.

And a population tends to have many different alleles for each gene. That is variation and is produced by mutation, not cross over of DNA from the parents.

 

[Polymath257]

When talking "specifics" you're talking about purpose and goals.

Why would you think that???

 

[tas8831]

You are talking about the HLA-B gene which has to do with the immune system and could have so many alleles due to past invading contaminations in the human body from viruses and bacteria. What does and how does your immune system produce for new invaders?

Certain white blood cells are unique among animal cells in that they have the ability to alter their own DNA during replication. Encountering foreign antigen triggers changes inside these cells, which induces MUTATIONS and rearrangements in certain segments of their DNA (the genes that encode some of their receptors) , which interestingly is a crap shoot for them - some of the changes are bad, and makes them worse at their job (poor planning?), but some of these changes result in more specificity in the receptors on their surface (increasing information, according to creationist Lee Spetner).

Suffice it to say that this is not what sub is referring to re: alleles - these changes are not hereditary.

Also suffice it to say that I used to teach a semester long class on the immune system, and if you actually want to learn about it, I suggest taking a course. A few back and forths on a creation forum is not how to learn, only to realize how little you know.

added in edit:
I should point out that the changes in their DNA/modified receptor does not occur within the individual cell in question, but when they divide.

 

[tas8831]

Would 50,000 years of being invaded and producing specialized protiens to fight virus' off alter our DNA, I would think so but its not my specialty.

It would be nice if such things were passed on, but since none of the 'real time' changes that occur in T and B cells is passed on, we have to suffer through it all on our own.

Sounds like pretty poor planning.

 

[tas8831]

Then you can't see it.

And you see only what you want to see.

 

[Valjean]

You're the one obtuse and not me, as you're rude then discussion with you won't be a courteous one.

My apologies if I've offended you. I was asking why you seemed unable to grasp the principles we were explaining. I could see only the three possibilities I mentioned.
What did I miss?

Please, how am I being obtuse?
I'm open to evidence and logical argument. If you have either of these I'd like to hear it.

How equal, chickens are living to be slaughtered, millions of chickens are killed
in daily basis, no future and no gaol other than being a source for egg and meat.

Is that their natural purpose, or one we've assigned them, for our benefit?
Sounds suspiciously like a might-makes-right argument. Substitute "African slaves" for chickens and the same principle obtains.

Mutation needed to get the variation in the first place.

Are you missing our explanation of sexual variation? Newborns differ both from their parents and from each other, not from mutation, but from genomes formed by combining DNA from two parents.

 

[Bear Wild]

How equal, chickens are living to be slaughtered, millions of chickens are killed
in daily basis, no future and no gaol other than being a source for egg and meat.

I cannot believe you would even say such a ridiculous statement. Chickens are slaughtered by human because they are contained on farm just for that purpose. The chickens in the wild would disagree with you. It is like saying if you have human slaves that you think you own and they do all of the work for you then they have no future and no goal other than to serve the one who says they own them. Then again maybe you do not have a problem with that. Humans do many cruel things to animals and humans. That does not lessen the animal or human just because it can be mistreated or dominated by humans.