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I Am A Good Person, Therefore, I'm Going To Heaven!

Kapalika

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Even the tiniest sin will keep us out of heaven, no matter how good we are

I don't see how it will ever be moral or good to defend infinite sadistic torture for the smallest of finite temporal "crimes"? Either the god in this theology is all loving and there is no hell (or at least an eternal hell) or the god is spiteful and petty and there is an infinite hell for anyone who doesn't worship him.

Actually, isn't there a verse of the Christian bible that says that he is a jealous god?

In either case allowing the worst people to enter heaven on a technicality and letting the best people burn forever doesn't strike as justice; it's simply a threat. That isn't love, that's abuse.
 
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Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Why shouldn't good people go to heaven?

Because God never said he was going to save "good" people. Some great humanitarians are atheists but are "good" by human standards. These people are not "good" because they love God, but because they love people.

The first and greatest command according to Jesus is to Love God with everything you have.....then we are to love our fellowman. Both are required...not one or the other.

What God required of his human creation from the beginning was "obedience" to his commands because they love him and respect his sovereignty.
 

Taylor Seraphim

Angel of Reason
Because God never said he was going to save "good" people. Some great humanitarians are atheists but are "good" by human standards. These people are not "good" because they love God, but because they love people.

The first and greatest command according to Jesus is to Love God with everything you have.....then we are to love our fellowman. Both are required...not one or the other.

What God required of his human creation from the beginning was "obedience" to his commands because they love him and respect his sovereignty.

God made the rules.

So why not make the rule that good people go to heaven?
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
God made the rules.

So why not make the rule that good people go to heaven?

Because God did not intended for any humans to go to heaven in the first place. He put humans on earth and offered them everlasting life here in paradise conditions, he never mentioned going to heaven. That wasn't even introduced into the human understanding of Messiah's kingdom for thousands of years.

The only reason why a savior was needed is because of Adam's disobedience. Had the first humans simply obeyed that one command.....they would still be alive with all their children on earth today. Did you not know this?
 

Taylor Seraphim

Angel of Reason
Because God did not intended for any humans to go to heaven in the first place. He put humans on earth and offered them everlasting life here in paradise conditions, he never mentioned going to heaven. That wasn't even introduced into the human understanding of Messiah's kingdom for thousands of years.

The only reason why a savior was needed is because of Adam's disobedience. Had the first humans simply obeyed that one command.....they would still be alive with all their children on earth today. Did you not know this?

He could have said that all humans are forgiven.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
He could have said that all humans are forgiven.

God can forgive anything but not unconditionally. If a person is genuinely repentant, God knows it and forgiveness follws. But without repentance, a person is likely to go on repeating the same actions that God forbids. How do you forgive that? What is the point? You would just end up with a world filled with unrepentant sinners, just like we have now.
I want to live in a world where there is no sin and all just live in peace and unity, enjoying all the wonders that this planet has to offer. What about you? Do you love the world the way it is?
 

Taylor Seraphim

Angel of Reason
God can forgive anything but not unconditionally. If a person is genuinely repentant, God knows it and forgiveness follws. But without repentance, a person is likely to go on repeating the same actions that God forbids. How do you forgive that? What is the point? You would just end up with a world filled with unrepentant sinners, just like we have now.
I want to live in a world where there is no sin and all just live in peace and unity, enjoying all the wonders that this planet has to offer. What about you? Do you love the world the way it is?

No.

If he is omnipotent that he has the ability to forgive who he wants, how he wants
 

Smart_Guy

...
Premium Member
Do they also think bad people go to heaven?

Hypothetically speaking: someone brutally tortures, rapes and murders your child. Do they go to heaven too?

Why did Jesus die on the cross?

You do bring good points. I'll give my 2 cents, but it is from my Islamic teachings that I believe are an evolution of the true original orthodox Christianity. I, with all due respect, don't believe Jesus sacrificed himself for our sins.

Going to Heaven does not mean having been completely spared from Hell. The criminal example act you gave above are send to Hell material indeed, but that does not mean who does it never goes to Heaven since there is more to life than a single or a couple of actions. In my beliefs, one could go to Hell and serve a sentence there, with specific tortures for specific crimes, just like in this life. It would cover up for the crimes done in full. Not good for them for what they did? If you know what Hell is like in Islam, you would feel better for them :) Then after that if there is what gives them chance to go to Heaven, they would go. If there isn't, then hard luck to them.

But generally speaking, the example act you gave is indeed Hell material and could pretty much send to Hell for eternity at some point.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
So he layed down unjust ground rules.

So your god made it where not everyone could go to heaven even when he could have done so.

How is that supposed to be an all-loving god?

Do you have Christendom's heaven hang up in mind? God made humans to live on earth, without dying. This is what will be restored by the coming of God's kingdom.
Very few go to heaven to make up a government who will rule humans on earth. Christendom's version of events is simply not true. Heaven is by special invitation only.
The majority of humans will live on earth ruled by the best government possible. Everything will go back to the way it was meant to be in the beginning. How is that unjust?

What unjust ground rules can a God of perfect justice make? It sounds like you have no idea why God did anything. You are misjudging him. :(
 

Taylor Seraphim

Angel of Reason
Do you have Christendom's heaven hang up in mind? God made humans to live on earth, without dying. This is what will be restored by the coming of God's kingdom.
Very few go to heaven to make up a government who will rule humans on earth. Christendom's version of events is simply not true. Heaven is by special invitation only.
The majority of humans will live on earth ruled by the best government possible. Everything will go back to the way it was meant to be in the beginning. How is that unjust?

What unjust ground rules can a God of perfect justice make? It sounds like you have no idea why God did anything. You are misjudging him. :(

You are saying that what god did was just because he is a just god.

That is circular logic.

Now why would god make it where not all humans can have paradise?
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
You are saying that what god did was just because he is a just god.

That is circular logic.

Now why would god make it where not all humans can have paradise?

Well, that was the original plan....everyone was supposed to live in paradise...but there was this thing called free will. It was a special dispensation to humans so that it would enhance their lives every day. Only we are made in the image of our Creator and we were originally without a knowledge of evil. God deemed that mankind would be better off without it. Was he right? I think we have proven that knowing evil has not benefited us in any way.

Animals don't plan much....they are programmed by instinct and operate according to their programming.....they eat, drink, eliminate waste, sleep and reproduce without much thought as to why they do any of it.

Humans, on the other hand have choices that determine what they do, where they go, and who they hang with. They choose what they will eat out of an endless variety of food. They cook and create their meals and specially cultivate food crops to their liking.....animals do not. Do you appreciate that you don't just eat grass? Or just drink water? Or mate with the first one of the opposite sex that presents you with the correct pheromones with no commitment or love in the act? Do you really know how unique humans are? With language skills, music, art, poetry, theater, architecture, science and technology....we are creative, just like our maker. We were supposed to use that creativity as earth's caretakers.....but rebellion happened and we had to make a detour. Abuse of free will caused the chaos we see in the world. Free will run amok. As caretakers of this planet, we are abject failures, all because of disobedience. But all is not lost.

We alone possess a concept of past, present and future...we can learn from past mistakes and experiences and then utilize that information in a way that animals cannot. We can plan the future and we can take in knowledge to help us plan what we will do next and how we will do it. We have communication skills that allow us to take in information through different senses and to build on knowledge we have already acquired. We have a written language that animals do not need. They plan nothing...they just respond to instinct.
We are so much more than animals.

It is all of these skills and knowledge that are utilized in our search for meaning to our existence....we alone need one. Our search will ultimately lead some to a knowledge of God and of his purpose in our creation. Others will take a different path. We all have choices. I need God to account for my life now and in the future...you may not.
I have no unanswered questions. Do you?
 

DawudTalut

Peace be upon you.
I hear this all the time. "I'm good, therefore I'm going to heaven."

Really?

I would ask, why did Jesus bother to die on the cross then?
Peace be on you.
1=Going to heaven is not related to someone on cross.

2=Going to heaven is related with grace of God, right faith and good deeds accordingly.

3=To Ahmadiyya-Muslim understanding from Quran, Bible, History and Medical records Jesus (on whom be peace) did not die on cross, he survived and migrated to other place through certain route.
https://www.alislam.org/library/books/jesus-in-india/index.html
 

Taylor Seraphim

Angel of Reason
Well, that was the original plan....everyone was supposed to live in paradise...but there was this thing called free will. It was a special dispensation to humans so that it would enhance their lives every day. Only we are made in the image of our Creator and we were originally without a knowledge of evil. God deemed that mankind would be better off without it. Was he right? I think we have proven that knowing evil has not benefited us in any way.

Animals don't plan much....they are programmed by instinct and operate according to their programming.....they eat, drink, eliminate waste, sleep and reproduce without much thought as to why they do any of it.

Humans, on the other hand have choices that determine what they do, where they go, and who they hang with. They choose what they will eat out of an endless variety of food. They cook and create their meals and specially cultivate food crops to their liking.....animals do not. Do you appreciate that you don't just eat grass? Or just drink water? Or mate with the first one of the opposite sex that presents you with the correct pheromones with no commitment or love in the act? Do you really know how unique humans are? With language skills, music, art, poetry, theater, architecture, science and technology....we are creative, just like our maker. We were supposed to use that creativity as earth's caretakers.....but rebellion happened and we had to make a detour. Abuse of free will caused the chaos we see in the world. Free will run amok. As caretakers of this planet, we are abject failures, all because of disobedience. But all is not lost.

We alone possess a concept of past, present and future...we can learn from past mistakes and experiences and then utilize that information in a way that animals cannot. We can plan the future and we can take in knowledge to help us plan what we will do next and how we will do it. We have communication skills that allow us to take in information through different senses and to build on knowledge we have already acquired. We have a written language that animals do not need. They plan nothing...they just respond to instinct.
We are so much more than animals.

It is all of these skills and knowledge that are utilized in our search for meaning to our existence....we alone need one. Our search will ultimately lead some to a knowledge of God and of his purpose in our creation. Others will take a different path. We all have choices. I need God to account for my life now and in the future...you may not.
I have no unanswered questions. Do you?

First of all if you think that god is all powerful then that means he could have made it where free-will and paradise can exist together like I don't know...Heaven?

You have no unanswered questions eh?

The few answers I have I know are correct based on evidence and I can test them and doubt them all I like and they will not change.

Can yours claim the same?
 

Taylor Seraphim

Angel of Reason
Peace be on you.
1=Going to heaven is not related to someone on cross.

2=Going to heaven is related with grace of God, right faith and good deeds accordingly.

3=To Ahmadiyya-Muslim understanding from Quran, Bible, History and Medical records Jesus (on whom be peace) did not die on cross, he survived and migrated to other place through certain route.
https://www.alislam.org/library/books/jesus-in-india/index.html

Show the historical and medical records.
 
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