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I Am A Good Person, Therefore, I'm Going To Heaven!

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
1) That statement is either born out of ignorance or you are lying and I am not sure which would be worse.

As a skeptic there are several things I believe to be true because of proof.

As a person of faith there are innumerable things you do not believe because you do not have proof.

Do you deny this?

Like...?
I have already mentioned that we all have to have faith in some things for which there are no guarantees or proof.
Do you have faith that you will wake up tomorrow morning? Is there any proof that you will?

2) So you have to have faith in god in order to believe in god?

That is once more circular logic.

Do you need me to explain to you what circular logic is?

No, you seem to engage in it a little yourself. I have all the proof I need, but it isn't enough for you. What is circular about that? You demand more of God than I do.

3) I hope you understand that it is a hypothetical deity I was using solely to show you how your arguments can be made for the existence of something absurd like a flying spaghetti monster.

It is not my job to prove God's existence to you.....it is his job...all I am is a messenger....so if God isn't proving his existence to you, and my message is meaningless, perhaps he knows that you really don't want to believe in him and is giving you what you want.
Proof is not something he offers because, if you have proof, there is no need of faith.

Faith is not the possession of all people....if you have no faith, what is there left to say? :shrug:
 

Taylor Seraphim

Angel of Reason
Like...?
I have already mentioned that we all have to have faith in some things for which there are no guarantees or proof.
Do you have faith that you will wake up tomorrow morning? Is there any proof that you will?



No, you seem to engage in it a little yourself. I have all the proof I need, but it isn't enough for you. What is circular about that? You demand more of God than I do.



It is not my job to prove God's existence to you.....it is his job...all I am is a messenger....so if God isn't proving his existence to you, and my message is meaningless, perhaps he knows that you really don't want to believe in him and is giving you what you want.
Proof is not something he offers because, if you have proof, there is no need of faith.

Faith is not the possession of all people....if you have no faith, what is there left to say? :shrug:

1) Do I have faith that I will wake up next morning? No, and I do not have proof that I will. but I can say that I probably will because the evidence would indicate that.

2) You said your belief in god comes from faith. Now you are saying you have proof. If you have proof then by definition you do not need faith.

3) Really...really...let me tell you something, I am on this forum because I want someone to prove to me there is a benevolent god and afterlife...and yet you think I do not buy into your religion because I do not want it to be true? Don't make me laugh.

Why would he require faith instead of give proof?

How is having faith is Kali any different?
 

Taylor Seraphim

Angel of Reason
Like...?
I have already mentioned that we all have to have faith in some things for which there are no guarantees or proof.
Do you have faith that you will wake up tomorrow morning? Is there any proof that you will?



No, you seem to engage in it a little yourself. I have all the proof I need, but it isn't enough for you. What is circular about that? You demand more of God than I do.



It is not my job to prove God's existence to you.....it is his job...all I am is a messenger....so if God isn't proving his existence to you, and my message is meaningless, perhaps he knows that you really don't want to believe in him and is giving you what you want.
Proof is not something he offers because, if you have proof, there is no need of faith.

Faith is not the possession of all people....if you have no faith, what is there left to say? :shrug:

Please, I have pointed out where you use circular logic, but you have not been able to do the same to me.

Since you do not seem to follow, understand, or care for the rules of logic then it seems that you are illogical.
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
1)
As a person of faith there are innumerable things you do not believe because you do not have proof.
Do you deny this?
As a Jehovah's Witness there are many billions of people she believes won't get God's blessing because she has no proof
that they deserve it.

A faithful JW believes the governing body of Jehovah's Witnesses can do no lasting damage because they have no proof that they have any ill intentions.
 
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katiemygirl

CHRISTIAN
Please, I have pointed out where you use circular logic, but you have not been able to do the same to me.

Since you do not seem to follow, understand, or care for the rules of logic then it seems that you are illogical.

After reading all of your posts, I have concluded that you are not looking for proofs of God's existence. You don't need to be on a forum to find proofs. There are all sorts of websites which offer plenty of proofs that there is a God. I'm really not sure why you're here. Only God knows your true motives.

It is not the job of christians to prove the existence of God to you. He has provided all the proof a person needs within His creation. All one needs to do is look around.

“For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—His eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse” (Romans 1:20).

He has also provided proof to you in His Word, but you have chosen to reject what He so graciously has given you.

Nothing anyone could say on this forum will change your thinking. You don't want to change. Unless you are open to the Lord, it will never happen.

Our God is a very patient God. He wants all to be saved, but He is not going to wait for you forever. Time will run out, and you don't know when that time will come. When it does, it'll be too late. There won't be any second chances for you.

Personally, I'd be scared to death to take that risk.

You can believe I'm wrong in my thinking, but I have nothing to lose, and everything to gain. You, on the other hand, have everything to lose and nothing to gain.
 
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katiemygirl

CHRISTIAN
="Deeje, post: 4723572, member: 18814"]Humans cannot live in heaven. God never intended humans to live in heaven. He created us to live in paradise right here....forever.
That is the opinion of JW's.

Of course God intended for christians to live in heaven with Him. Where do think God's house is if not in heaven?

Jesus told His followers,
"In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you." (John 14:2 KJV)

The term "paradise earth" never one time appears in the Bible.
 

muhammad_isa

Veteran Member
..
Of course God intended for christians to live in heaven with Him. Where do think God's house is if not in heaven?
..
I would extend that to 'believers' .. meaning those that believe in Almighty God and His messengers, His angels, His revelations :)

Yes, we share parts of our creeds, and they also differ .. Almighty God knows best who's intention is good, and who gains wisdom
 

katiemygirl

CHRISTIAN
I don't see how it will ever be moral or good to defend infinite sadistic torture for the smallest of finite temporal "crimes"? Either the god in this theology is all loving and there is no hell (or at least an eternal hell) or the god is spiteful and petty and there is an infinite hell for anyone who doesn't worship him.

Actually, isn't there a verse of the Christian bible that says that he is a jealous god?

In either case allowing the worst people to enter heaven on a technicality and letting the best people burn forever doesn't strike as justice; it's simply a threat. That isn't love, that's abuse.
Have you read about or studied the nature of God? I'd be interested in knowing what you actually know about it.
 

katiemygirl

CHRISTIAN
Peace be on you.
1=Going to heaven is not related to someone on cross.

2=Going to heaven is related with grace of God, right faith and good deeds accordingly.

3=To Ahmadiyya-Muslim understanding from Quran, Bible, History and Medical records Jesus (on whom be peace) did not die on cross, he survived and migrated to other place through certain route.
https://www.alislam.org/library/books/jesus-in-india/index.html
1. Yes it is. Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father but through Me.

2. You're right about grace, but it is through faith in Jesus, the Son of God, you get to heaven.

3. There is zero proof for such an allegation, not even in the Quran. Saying it doesn't make it true.

Jesus died on the cross and was raised from the dead. There were many witnesses to this. There is historical evidence.
 
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katiemygirl

CHRISTIAN
Do you have Christendom's heaven hang up in mind? God made humans to live on earth, without dying. This is what will be restored by the coming of God's kingdom.
Very few go to heaven to make up a government who will rule humans on earth. Christendom's version of events is simply not true. Heaven is by special invitation only.
The majority of humans will live on earth ruled by the best government possible. Everything will go back to the way it was meant to be in the beginning. How is that unjust?

What unjust ground rules can a God of perfect justice make? It sounds like you have no idea why God did anything. You are misjudging him. :(
Christendom has been here since Pentecost. JW's didn't show up until the 19th Century.

Charles Taze Russel is the leader of JW's.

Jesus Christ is the leader of His church.

Yes, there have been many errors throughout history in christendom, but not all christians were wrong. There has been a remnant of true believers since the beginning, and unlike the JW's, they haven't made false predictions and changed doctrine repeatedly.
 

katiemygirl

CHRISTIAN
I would extend that to 'believers' .. meaning those that believe in Almighty God and His messengers, His angels, His revelations :)

Yes, we share parts of our creeds, and they also differ .. Almighty God knows best who's intention is good, and who gains wisdom
You cannot get to Almighty God, the Father, unless you go through Jesus. I don't care how much you believe in God, or how good you are. Jesus is the way to the Father. You must go through Him.
 

muhammad_isa

Veteran Member
You cannot get to Almighty God, the Father, unless you go through Jesus. I don't care how much you believe in God, or how good you are. Jesus is the way to the Father. You must go through Him.
That is your saying .. I know you will claim that Jesus, peace be with him, said that, but it doesn't matter..

Why? Because any of the prophets could say such a thing, and they would be right .. that is, in the context of that present time. Naturally, if you don't believe that Muhammad was a prophet, peace be with him, then you would assume the NT as the last current scripture, unless you have any others, do you? :)
 

Pudding

Well-Known Member
Another thread create for the purpose of proselytization and sermon...
And the spreading of bold empty claims...
And quoting scripture as evidence for those bold empty claims... at the same time using the scripture for the proselytization and sermon...
Enjoy the ride everyone...
 
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Kelly of the Phoenix

Well-Known Member
What flaws? Do you appreciate your free will or would you sacrifice it to be a robotic clone of yourself who just did all things by instinct?
Meh. I'm an organic robot. Free will is an illusion, a lie we tell ourselves to get through the day. We may have will, but it is costly, not free.

The flying spaghetti monster has no evidence for his existence
Sorry, but, in fact, it was located in the ocean. :D

You are confusing everlasting life with immortality...they are not the same. Immortals cannot die, but man was created mortal.
Ancient gods also had to eat or drink magic foodstuffs to retain immortality as well. The serpent and then God imply this is the reason God didn't want to share.

What humans had was not a life of luxury at all. They were created with strong bodies built for work.
Their assignment was to "fill the earth and subdue it". This entailed turning the whole planet outside their garden home into something resembling Eden. You have the wrong picture entirely. God made humans in his image, with his flair for creativity a love for satisfying work.
Do you have a different Genesis than I do? WORK WAS THE PUNISHMENT ONCE THEY LEFT THE GARDEN. If it is a punishment, it makes no sense they were slaving away in a garden, which was not the entire world, or there'd be no "other place" for them to be exiled to.

We are not anywhere close to the perfection that Adam and his wife enjoyed.
So now we get to "perfection that Adam and his wife enjoyed" when just above that in the same post is "What humans had was not a life of luxury at all." Weird.

Christ came and fulfilled that part of the law rendering it no longer binding on his disciples.
Not one jot or tittle shall be removed or whatever -- Jesus

Can we break them with impunity and claim that the devil made us do it? Try that one on and see how it works....
Paradises don't work that way, though. You claim that we are all still so flawed, so terrible in relation to a "perfect" first couple that it's obvious that ship has sailed.

Ants didn't plan to farm aphids...they are programmed to farm aphids.
You know this how? You spend the night with the ant queen and she told you how her colony works?

all except humans get on with life without elaborate funerals, memorials and mourning rituals. Dogs and cats will bury their food but not their corpses.
Viewer Discretion Advised:
Penguins
Elephants
Monkeys
Mourning Doves
Cats
Geese
Etc, etc

They have mourning. That they do not have YOUR mourning rituals is rather anthropocentric and egocentric.

Humans have no program for death....we were not created to die...so aging, sickness and death are as foreign to us now as they were to Adam and his wife.
Jesus came to get us back what we lost. It is not that complicated.
That just ... just ... no. Of course it's not complicated. We are mortal beings, just like all the other mortal beings. Did Adam and Eve have kids as infants? Did Adam and Eve live to be almost a thousand years old and still look like infants? Did the food they eat live through their digestion process? If they had a duck dinner, did the duck come out the other end and fly off?

Do you have faith that you will wake up tomorrow morning? Is there any proof that you will?
There is statistical likelihood. If you knew all the relevant variables, you could, indeed, work out if you were assured to wake up tomorrow.

As a Jehovah's Witness there are many billions of people she believes won't get God's blessing because she has no proof
that they deserve it.

A faithful JW believes the governing body of Jehovah's Witnesses can do no lasting damage because they have no proof that they have any ill intentions.
To be fair, though, hers is hardly the only denomination that acts that way.

There are all sorts of websites which offer plenty of proofs that there is a God.
Well, there are plenty of websites with bad logic and fact finding skills.

I'm reading a book by Ehrman about memory and how it relates to the stories of Jesus being reliable. He mentions how we have four gospels because Iraneus says it's because the four winds dispersed the word to the four corners of the earth and that's why. So, we have four gospels instead of at least 12 because someone is really truly bad at logic.

Christendom has been here since Pentecost. JW's didn't show up until the 19th Century.
Your denomination wasn't at the beginning either. No one's was. If we were the OG followers, we'd be Jews. The term "Christian" didn't exist in Jesus' lifetime, so NO ONE who was actually there were Christians.
 

katiemygirl

CHRISTIAN
That is your saying .. I know you will claim that Jesus, peace be with him, said that, but it doesn't matter..

Why? Because any of the prophets could say such a thing, and they would be right .. that is, in the context of that present time. Naturally, if you don't believe that Muhammad was a prophet, peace be with him, then you would assume the NT as the last current scripture, unless you have any others, do you? :)
No, that is not MY saying. It is the claim of Jesus.

History supports the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus.

Flavius Josephus, a non-believer and historian of the Roman Empire wrote about the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus. Other secular historians did as well, long before they ever heard the name Muhammad.

Incidentally, I see no solid historical proof that Muhammad ever existed
 

McBell

Unbound
No, that is not MY saying. It is the claim of Jesus.

History supports the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus.

Flavius Josephus, a non-believer and historian of the Roman Empire wrote about the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus. Other secular historians did as well, long before they ever heard the name Muhammad.

Incidentally, I see no solid historical proof that Muhammad ever existed
ROTFLMAO

You accept the flimsiest of "evidence" that not only did Jesus exist, but was crucified and resurrected but ignore the mountains of evidence for the existence of Mohammad?

Now that is some serious gold medal winning mental gymnastics....
 

katiemygirl

CHRISTIAN
[="Kelly of the Phoenix, post: 4725358, member: 58387"]
Your denomination wasn't at the beginning either. No one's was. If we were the OG followers, we'd be Jews. The term "Christian" didn't exist in Jesus' lifetime, so NO ONE who was actually there were Christians.

There is only ONE ekklesia (congregation). It's the one Jesus promised to build in Matthew 16:18. It began on Pentecost, fifty days after His resurrection.

So there was no church when Jesus was alive. It wasn't establised until ten days after His ascension.

His congregation is a worlwide spiritual institution, not some church building with a sign out front with some denominational name written on it.

Those who believed Peter's message on Pentecost were baptized, and the Lord added them to His ekklesia (Acts 2:42, 47).

They were called christians not many years after Jesus' ascension (Acts 11:26).

With that said, I don't have a denomination. I belong to the Lord's church, His congregation.

There have been numerous people over the past 2000 years who have been and are members of the Lord's church.
 

katiemygirl

CHRISTIAN
Another thread create for the purpose of proselytization and sermon...
And the spreading of bold empty claims...
And quoting scripture as evidence for those bold empty claims... at the same time using the scripture for the proselytization and sermon...
Enjoy the ride everyone...
Some of us believe the words of Jesus.

Matthew 28:19
Mark 16:15
 

Ingledsva

HEATHEN ALASKAN
Ummm......

I hope you know that is a hypothetical deity I brought up just to make a point......

I do not actually believe in a giant spaghetti monster.......

EDIT: Sorry, I think I misread your post, please go on.

What? NO! I can see his wonderous works all around me. I know he is real.

flying-spaghetti-monster-31.jpg
 
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