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I Am A Good Person, Therefore, I'm Going To Heaven!

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
First of all if you think that god is all powerful then that means he could have made it where free-will and paradise can exist together like I don't know...Heaven?

Humans cannot live in heaven. God never intended humans to live in heaven. He created us to live in paradise right here....forever. Humans have a collective expectation to go on living. Old people aren't old in their head...just in their body. We fear death because it is foreign to us....it was never supposed to happen.

Free will can and will exist in paradise again, just as it did in the beginning. We just have to learn about how to manage free will so that we do not infringe the free will of others. This requires that we put others ahead of ourselves....doing to them what we would like done to ourselves...the 'ol "Golden Rule". Just imagine if everyone practiced that one rule...what a different world we could have. Why do you suppose we can't?

You have no unanswered questions eh?

I have been a questioner all my life. There are no questions that I have now, that have gone unanswered....and I had lots of them. The Bible answered every one of them.

The few answers I have I know are correct based on evidence and I can test them and doubt them all I like and they will not change.

Can yours claim the same?

In faith, yes. In the Bible, faith is described as "the assured expectation of what is hoped for, the evident demonstration of realities that are not seen".

We have to have faith in many things in life. We have to have faith that people will do as they say they will. If I take my car to a workshop for repair, I have to have faith that the mechanic will know how to effect the repairs in a professional manner.....that the fuel I put in my car is not water....that the food I eat from the take-away is not loaded with bacteria that will put me in hospital or kill me....that the surgeon operating on my child is fully qualified. If we can't trust and have faith in others, what is the point of anything?

I choose to have faith in God because I have come to know him well, through his creation and through his word. If you don't want to know him, then that is your prerogative. He will not force himself on anyone.
 

Taylor Seraphim

Angel of Reason
Humans cannot live in heaven. God never intended humans to live in heaven. He created us to live in paradise right here....forever. Humans have a collective expectation to go on living. Old people aren't old in their head...just in their body. We fear death because it is foreign to us....it was never supposed to happen.

Free will can and will exist in paradise again, just as it did in the beginning. We just have to learn about how to manage free will so that we do not infringe the free will of others. This requires that we put others ahead of ourselves....doing to them what we would like done to ourselves...the 'ol "Golden Rule". Just imagine if everyone practiced that one rule...what a different world we could have. Why do you suppose we can't?



I have been a questioner all my life. There are no questions that I have now, that have gone unanswered....and I had lots of them. The Bible answered every one of them.



In faith, yes. In the Bible, faith is described as "the assured expectation of what is hoped for, the evident demonstration of realities that are not seen".

We have to have faith in many things in life. We have to have faith that people will do as they say they will. If I take my car to a workshop for repair, I have to have faith that the mechanic will know how to effect the repairs in a professional manner.....that the fuel I put in my car is not water....that the food I eat from the take-away is not loaded with bacteria that will put me in hospital or kill me....that the surgeon operating on my child is fully qualified. If we can't trust and have faith in others, what is the point of anything?

I choose to have faith in God because I have come to know him well, through his creation and through his word. If you don't want to know him, then that is your prerogative. He will not force himself on anyone.

1) Did I ask about what you think that god planned? No.
I asked why he did not make life without the flaws that mar it.

2) But how do you know the bible is true? it could be false.
Also why are you on this forum if you have all the answers?

3) How is faith in your god any different than faith in the flying spaghetti monster?
 

katiemygirl

CHRISTIAN
What on Earth are you talking about? Muslims, Christians & Jews all believe in the same God & it was the God Abraham ﷺ worshipped, the one & only true God.
No they don't. Allah is not the God of the Bible. If you want to debate that, start your own thread.
What on Earth are you talking about? Muslims, Christians & Jews all believe in the same God & it was the God Abraham ﷺ worshipped, the one & only true God.
Are you aware that you're on ReligiousForums where the point is to discuss religions? If you feel threatened by other religions they you shouldn't be here. I don't mean anything rude.
Please post at Comparative Religions.
 

Kelly of the Phoenix

Well-Known Member
The only reason why a savior was needed is because of Adam's disobedience. Had the first humans simply obeyed that one command.....they would still be alive with all their children on earth today. Did you not know this?
There is no evidence for this. In fact, the way to get immortality was clearly to eat from the Tree of Life. The punishment was NOT death, but having to work and childbirth pains and not being spoonfed in a garden of paradise. Those poor, poor kids ...

But without repentance, a person is likely to go on repeating the same actions that God forbids.
That is why, unlike man, God looks to the heart. In other words, He looks at motive. A person who can't stop doing evil things is likely crazy, which is different than being evil.

I want to live in a world where there is no sin and all just live in peace and unity, enjoying all the wonders that this planet has to offer. What about you? Do you love the world the way it is?
Asthma and such exist, more or less, because we have tried too hard to remove pollutants/diseases from our lives, so our bodies go haywire since the immune system God built into us can no longer do its job and fight real problems. We had the Garden of Eden and look how that turned out (though they couldn't sin because they were like impulsive kids, not rational adults). We need to defend against sin, not wish it away, because it's simply not going to happen.

He has laid out the ground rules and we have to follow them. We do not have options in this....we obey him...he doesn't obey us.
You obey EVERY rule ever made in the bible? How many animals have you sacrificed lately? Did you ever kill smart-mouthed children?

Everything will go back to the way it was meant to be in the beginning. How is that unjust?
But look what happened "in the beginning". Insanity is doing the same exact thing and expecting a different result.

Animals don't plan much....they are programmed by instinct and operate according to their programming.....they eat, drink, eliminate waste, sleep and reproduce without much thought as to why they do any of it.
Humans also have impulse control problems. Many are highly thoughtless. Your point?

They cook and create their meals and specially cultivate food crops to their liking.....animals do not.
Ants farm fungi and sometimes aphids. Just sayin'.

Show the historical and medical records.
Sure, there are none of those things, but the stabbing with the spear only happens in one gospel and I think the evidence, small as it is, within that story points to Jesus going unconscious ("dying") on the cross thanks to a fluid problem such as congestive heart failure or pneumothorax or something and the lancing by the spear allowed the fluid to drain, relieving the pressure, which is why Jesus could wake up from his coma three days later.

We fear death because it is foreign to us
It's not foreign, though. Only a tiny amount of living things can be "immortal". Nearly everyone and every living things die.

A Jew would say that Jesus is not the god of the Torah.
Amen.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
1) Did I ask about what you think that god planned? No.
I asked why he did not make life without the flaws that mar it.

What flaws? Do you appreciate your free will or would you sacrifice it to be a robotic clone of yourself who just did all things by instinct?

Free will was no mistake...the mistake was in abusing it and showing no respect for the one who gave them life and a wonderful prospect for the future.
If you want to lay blame....lay it on the abusers. Obedience to one simple command caused them no hardship whatsoever.

2) But how do you know the bible is true? it could be false.

It has proven itself to me in everything it teaches. There is no better way to live than the way Christ taught us to. He taught us to put the welfare of other before our own. The world would be a very different place if we all just did that. Do you think that it is impossible? If so why?

Also why are you on this forum if you have all the answers?

To show people how to get them for themselves. Christ taught us to share the good things we learned about him and his Father...especially about the future.
The rulership of God's kingdom is coming, ready or not, so wouldn't you want to know and be prepared for something that will take place very suddenly with no warning?
It was all written 2,000 years ago and now it is coming true. We will likely see the outworking of God's purpose....and we can become a part of it...or a victim of it. We choose.

3) How is faith in your god any different than faith in the flying spaghetti monster?

The flying spaghetti monster has no evidence for his existence...I see evidence for the existence of my God all around me every day. From the exquisite design of his creatures, to the beauty of a sunset or a land or seascape, to the rain that falls from the sky in a process that could not be accidental.
In the workings of our bodies in the myriad systems that must all co-operate together in order for us to even function, let alone go beyond to take our lives to new heights.
I am appalled at what most people just take for granted, totally ignoring what is all around them.....open your eyes and your heart and see! Then appreciate. It is humbling.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
There is no evidence for this. In fact, the way to get immortality was clearly to eat from the Tree of Life. The punishment was NOT death, but having to work and childbirth pains and not being spoonfed in a garden of paradise. Those poor, poor kids ...

You are confusing everlasting life with immortality...they are not the same. Immortals cannot die, but man was created mortal. He needed to have access to air, food, water and the "tree of life" in order to keep on living indefinitely. Once sin entered into the picture, access to the "tree of life" was prohibited. No imperfect human was going to be permitted to live forever.(Gen 3:22-24)

What humans had was not a life of luxury at all. They were created with strong bodies built for work.
Their assignment was to "fill the earth and subdue it". This entailed turning the whole planet outside their garden home into something resembling Eden. You have the wrong picture entirely. God made humans in his image, with his flair for creativity a love for satisfying work.

That is why, unlike man, God looks to the heart. In other words, He looks at motive. A person who can't stop doing evil things is likely crazy, which is different than being evil.

Unfortunately, the world is full of both...God knows the difference.

Asthma and such exist, more or less, because we have tried too hard to remove pollutants/diseases from our lives, so our bodies go haywire since the immune system God built into us can no longer do its job and fight real problems. We had the Garden of Eden and look how that turned out (though they couldn't sin because they were like impulsive kids, not rational adults). We need to defend against sin, not wish it away, because it's simply not going to happen.

We are not anywhere close to the perfection that Adam and his wife enjoyed. When God pronounced the death sentence on those rebels, he did not say that he would specifically do anything, but he enumerated what the natural consequence of sin would mean to a human body. Imperfection now infiltrated every cell, causing the things that he told them. If our immune systems worked the way they are supposed to, we would not be open to infection like we are now. If man had not over-prescribed antibiotics, then the bacteria would not have adapted to preserve its species. They are predicting a holocaust of drug resistant strains of bacteria. Hospitals are already crawling with them.

You obey EVERY rule ever made in the bible? How many animals have you sacrificed lately? Did you ever kill smart-mouthed children?

No imperfect human can do anything perfectly. Israel were given a set of laws that don't apply to gentiles. Christ came and fulfilled that part of the law rendering it no longer binding on his disciples. Christ's teachings are simple but far reaching.

Matt 22:36-40:
“Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?” 37 He said to him: “‘You must love Jehovah your God with your whole heart and with your whole soul and with your whole mind.’ 38 This is the greatest and first commandment. 39 The second, like it, is this: ‘You must love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 On these two commandments the whole Law hangs, and the Prophets."

All the laws and teachings of the prophets boiled down to just two simple commands...'Love God with your whole being and love your neighbor as yourself'
To the best of our imperfect ability we try to do this. This is our sacrifice to God.

But look what happened "in the beginning". Insanity is doing the same exact thing and expecting a different result.

That is what the last 4,000 years has been about....making sure that what happened in Eden can NEVER happen again.
Our whole existence has been about who we accept as our God and who we listen to as our teachers. How we exercise our free will and how important God's laws are to us.
Can we break them with impunity and claim that the devil made us do it? Try that one on and see how it works....

Humans also have impulse control problems. Many are highly thoughtless. Your point?

Impulse control is a kind of mental illness. If a person cannot truly help what they do, God knows. He just isn't into excuses. He only accepts reasons....sometimes we don't know the difference. Your best may not be my best. God doesn't accept lame excuses any more than he accepted lame sacrifices.

Ants farm fungi and sometimes aphids. Just sayin'.

Ants didn't plan to farm aphids...they are programmed to farm aphids. Its called symbiosis and it occurs in nature more often than we think. There are vast eco-systems that are interdependent and all work together in harmony until some clever human comes along and mucks it up. :rolleyes:

It's not foreign, though. Only a tiny amount of living things can be "immortal". Nearly everyone and every living things die.

All living creatures on this planet have a cycle of life and death and replacement by reproduction. Death is a natural part of life for them....all except humans get on with life without elaborate funerals, memorials and mourning rituals. Dogs and cats will bury their food but not their corpses. God has a team of garbage collectors who will break down that body and it will become part of the environment whilst providing life support for other creatures. It is the perfect kind recycling. How often do you ever see dead birds? Yet they die by the thousands every day.

Humans have no program for death....we were not created to die...so aging, sickness and death are as foreign to us now as they were to Adam and his wife.
Jesus came to get us back what we lost. It is not that complicated.
 
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savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
The rulership of God's kingdom is coming, ready or not, so wouldn't you want to know and be prepared for something that will take place very suddenly with no warning?
The rulership of God's kingdom has always been present and will always be present. Why do you say that it is coming?
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
If God's kingdom "is coming" it means that it isn't here yet. The stated fact that it isn't here means that some people are making rules apart from it. Do you @Deeje think it is a good thing to make rules apart from God's Kingdom?
 

Taylor Seraphim

Angel of Reason
What flaws? Do you appreciate your free will or would you sacrifice it to be a robotic clone of yourself who just did all things by instinct?

Free will was no mistake...the mistake was in abusing it and showing no respect for the one who gave them life and a wonderful prospect for the future.
If you want to lay blame....lay it on the abusers. Obedience to one simple command caused them no hardship whatsoever.



It has proven itself to me in everything it teaches. There is no better way to live than the way Christ taught us to. He taught us to put the welfare of other before our own. The world would be a very different place if we all just did that. Do you think that it is impossible? If so why?



To show people how to get them for themselves. Christ taught us to share the good things we learned about him and his Father...especially about the future.
The rulership of God's kingdom is coming, ready or not, so wouldn't you want to know and be prepared for something that will take place very suddenly with no warning?
It was all written 2,000 years ago and now it is coming true. We will likely see the outworking of God's purpose....and we can become a part of it...or a victim of it. We choose.



The flying spaghetti monster has no evidence for his existence...I see evidence for the existence of my God all around me every day. From the exquisite design of his creatures, to the beauty of a sunset or a land or seascape, to the rain that falls from the sky in a process that could not be accidental.
In the workings of our bodies in the myriad systems that must all co-operate together in order for us to even function, let alone go beyond to take our lives to new heights.
I am appalled at what most people just take for granted, totally ignoring what is all around them.....open your eyes and your heart and see! Then appreciate. It is humbling.

1) Why would I be responsible for Adam and Eve's actions?

2) It is not logically possible for it to prove itself. Oh there are much better ways to live, spending your time helping your fellow humans rather than praying to a deity about it.

3) How do you know that the flying spaghetti monster did not make those?
 

Ingledsva

HEATHEN ALASKAN
What flaws? ...

Taylor Seraphim said:
3) How is faith in your god any different than faith in the flying spaghetti monster?

The flying spaghetti monster has no evidence for his existence...I see evidence for the existence of my God all around me every day. From the exquisite design of his creatures, to the beauty of a sunset or a land or seascape, to the rain that falls from the sky in a process that could not be accidental.
In the workings of our bodies in the myriad systems that must all co-operate together in order for us to even function, let alone go beyond to take our lives to new heights.
I am appalled at what most people just take for granted, totally ignoring what is all around them.....open your eyes and your heart and see! Then appreciate. It is humbling.

You seem to not realize, that the Gods of other people, whom you don't believe exist (no evidence,) - have believers saying the same things about their Gods creating all.

To me you are no different then them.

You have no real evidence of your God, - just as they don't.

*
 

Taylor Seraphim

Angel of Reason
You seem to not realize, that the Gods of other people, whom you don't believe exist (no evidence,) - have believers saying the same things about their Gods creating all.

To me you are no different then them.

You have no real evidence of your God, - just as they don't.

*

Ummm......

I hope you know that is a hypothetical deity I brought up just to make a point......

I do not actually believe in a giant spaghetti monster.......

EDIT: Sorry, I think I misread your post, please go on.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
1) Why would I be responsible for Adam and Eve's actions?

I don't believe that I said you are....they are responsible for your imperfection....faulty genetics. You can only pass on what you have....their genes were defective because they lost their perfection and began to die from the very day they rebelled against their God. He did not abandon their children however.

2) It is not logically possible for it to prove itself. Oh there are much better ways to live, spending your time helping your fellow humans rather than praying to a deity about it.

You confuse me with someone else....who says we are to just pray about things and do nothing to help people? We have a very important assignment and we are accountable to God if we fail to do it.
There is a message to be shared with the whole world and we are told to take it out to the people; a search and rescue mission if you like.....we are not to cozy ourselves up in a building preaching to the converted. (Matt 10:11-15)

3) How do you know that the flying spaghetti monster did not make those?
Because my God is not the flying spaghetti monster.....in fact he is no monster at all. I think you are speaking about the god of Christendom, who appears to be whatever you want him to be...or in the case of their hellfire doctrine, something you don't want him to be.
 
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Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
You seem to not realize, that the Gods of other people, whom you don't believe exist (no evidence,) - have believers saying the same things about their Gods creating all.

To me you are no different then them.

You have no real evidence of your God, - just as they don't.

I don't think it matters what we personally think about anyone else or their beliefs.......I believe that it is what God thinks of us that matters.
The true God will reveal himself one day soon and we will all know then...won't we? :)
 

Taylor Seraphim

Angel of Reason
I don't believe that I said you are....they are responsible for your imperfection....faulty genetics. You can only pass on what you have....their genes were defective because they lost their perfection and began to die from the very day they rebelled against their God. He did not abandon their children however.



You confuse me with someone else....who says we are to just pray about things and do nothing to help people? We have a very important assignment and we are accountable to God if we fail to do it.
There is a message to be shared with the whole world and we are told yo take it out to the people; a search and rescue mission if you like.....we are not to cozy ourselves up in a building preaching to the converted. (Matt 10:11-15)


Because my God is not the flying spaghetti monster.....in fact he is no monster at all. I think you are speaking about the god of Christendom, who appears to be whatever you want him to be...or in the case of their hellfire doctrine, something you don't want him to be.

Then god still allowed me to have faulty genetics because of what my supposed ancestors, Adam and Eve.


You:

Claim: Deejee's god exists.
Support: Nature is visually pleasing.

Me:

Counter-claim: It could be a deity called the flying spaghetti monster.
Support: The flying spaghetti monster can create nature to be visually pleasing as well.

You:
Counter-claim: It could not be the flying spaghetii monster.
Support: Deejee's god exist.

You cannot use your god's existence as a support for your god's existence.

That is circular logic.
 

Taylor Seraphim

Angel of Reason
I don't think it matters what we personally think about anyone else or their beliefs.......I believe that it is what God thinks of us that matters.
The true God will reveal himself one day soon and we will all know then...won't we? :)

Sadly, probably not.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Then god still allowed me to have faulty genetics because of what my supposed ancestors, Adam and Eve.


You:

Claim: Deejee's god exists.
Support: Nature is visually pleasing.

Me:

Counter-claim: It could be a deity called the flying spaghetti monster.
Support: The flying spaghetti monster can create nature to be visually pleasing as well.

You:
Counter-claim: It could not be the flying spaghetii monster.
Support: Deejee's god exist.

You cannot use your god's existence as a support for your god's existence.

That is circular logic.

'A person convinced against their will, retain the same opinion still'....

You know that to a skeptic no proof is enough but to a person of faith, no proof is necessary.

If you are not a person of faith, there is nothing I, or anyone else, can say that will convince you.

Enjoy your spaghetti monster. :)
 

Taylor Seraphim

Angel of Reason
'A person convinced against their will, retain the same opinion still'....

You know that to a skeptic no proof is enough but to a person of faith, no proof is necessary.

If you are not a person of faith, there is nothing I, or anyone else, can say that will convince you.

Enjoy your spaghetti monster. :)

1) That statement is either born out of ignorance or you are lying and I am not sure which would be worse.

As a skeptic there are several things I believe to be true because of proof.

As a person of faith there are innumerable things you do not believe because you do not have proof.

Do you deny this?

2) So you have to have faith in god in order to believe in god?

That is once more circular logic.

Do you need me to explain to you what circular logic is?

3) I hope you understand that it is a hypothetical deity I was using solely to show you how your arguments can be made for the existence of something absurd like a flying spaghetti monster.
 
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