I am Israel

[YmirGF]

How many have condemned hamas in this thread. Everyone.

What? Are you saying you condemn Hamas too? Sweeeeeeet.

How many have condemned Israel? Not one.

Oddly, I have noted some very strident comments in this thread against Israel.

How many have made excuses for Israel's war crimes. Almost everyone.

Well, I certainly wouldn't. If anything, I would describe Israel's reactions as being reserved.

And yet these people, with all their bias, wonder why there's no peace over there.

I am not one of them. I am not the slightest bit surprised that there is no lasting peace. There are good reasons why there is no peace and why there will never be peace as long as Israel exists.

 

[Badran]

regardless of the solution, no one will be happy.

Why?

For some reason I want to act like a little kid and tell you, "If you love Hamas so much, why don't you go marry them."
BUT seeing as how I must be adult about it..."If you love Hamas so much, why don't you go marry them."


Or have you already???:nightcraw:

Didn't he already say that Hamas is bad, however only adding to it that in his view Israel gives an excuse for Hamas to thrive?

 

[Badran]

Well, I certainly wouldn't. If anything, I would describe Israel's reactions as being reserved.

How so? Does "sending a message" for example or retaliation justify civilian deaths in your eyes?

 

[YmirGF]

How so? Does "sending a message" for example or retaliation justify civilian deaths in your eyes?

Badran, when you have a military group like Hamas working in civilian areas, attempts to crush that military group will result in civilian deaths. Think of it like a cancerous tumor. Inevitably tissue around the cancer will be cut out. If you must, think of those death as being part of the price for "Palestinians" electing Hamas to represent them. Not the wisest thinking, or a sign that they are genuinely seeking a peaceful settlement with Israel.

 

[FatimaHassanmuslim2theend]

Do you believe the fact that USA Bombed Japan during the war and killed thousands of innocent people, was justified? This is the EXACT same with Hamas. I diagree with both and so should you.
You should also disagree with the killings happening in Gaza by the Israeli gov.

 

[Rakhel]

Why?

because not everyone will agree that that one solution will be in the best interest of everyone involved.
Ok. Yosi suggested, Arab countries exiled Jewish citizens and stole their rightfully owned land. Israel has the right to do the same. Who is happy here?
Certainly not Arabs, as most feel they have the right to all of the Arabian Peninsula.

Suppose Israel allowed the right of return for Arabs, as well as rights to regain land they either abandoned or sold(which some did), or access to land the Ottoman Empire sold to Jews prior to their demise. Who is happy? Certainly not the Jews, because they feel this is their land, by right, because the land they now live on was either sold to them or left abandoned.

Suppose, the Jews demand right of return to the lands their ancestors owned in Syria, Yemen Egypt, and the West Bank? Who is happy? Certainly not the Arabs, much for the same reason as the Jews would not be happy. Land was abandoned or they bought it.
Suppose it was a one state solution, in which Jews and Palestinians shared land and government and the name remained Israel. Who would be happy here? Certainly not the rest of the Arab world, because while the Palestinians may be happy, it goes against what the rest Arabia would want. Their pawn would cease to exist and Israel would remain. Now, who in their right mind would want that?
Suppose we follow the same as above, a one state solution and change the name to Palestine? Who would be happy? This one is feasible but many Israelis would not be happy at the name change and some Arabs would still be unhappy because there are still Jews there.

this can go on and on. My husband, Yosi, and I have discussed this in depth. There is no easy way out of this problem. the Jews can't, or won't move(for various reasons) and the Arab League can't, or won't move(also for various reason)
There can never be one solution that will make everyone happy. It is not possible.

Didn't he already say that Hamas is bad, however only adding to it that in his view Israel gives an excuse for Hamas to thrive?

I was being silly.

 

[Panda]

How many have condemned hamas in this thread. Everyone.

How many have condemned Israel? Not one.

How many have made excuses for Israel's war crimes. Almost everyone.


And yet these people, with all their bias, wonder why there's no peace over there.

Funny I am sure I remember saying both sides are as bad as each other and condemning both sides.

 

[xkatz]

You should also disagree with the killings happening in Gaza by the Israeli gov.

What about the deaths in Israel by various Palestinian factions?

 

[waitasec]

this is the most obvious manifestation of undue importance regarding the divine right of passage to a teenie tiny slab of land... it's actually being intellectually dishonest given the knowledge of how small we are ...guess this feeling of our lack of importance gives us the napoleon complex...

[youtube]HEheh1BH34Q[/youtube]
YouTube - Star Size Comparison HD


can't we just get along...

oh never mind, as long as the god of abraham is around that would be impossible....

 

[Badran]

Badran, when you have a military group like Hamas working in civilian areas, attempts to crush that military group will result in civilian deaths. Think of it like a cancerous tumor. Inevitably tissue around the cancer will be cut out. If you must, think of those death as being part of the price for "Palestinians" electing Hamas to represent them. Not the wisest thinking, or a sign that they are genuinely seeking a peaceful settlement with Israel.

I understand that in this situation, with the strategy of Hamas, civilian deaths might occur despite best efforts to avoid that. But there is more than one thing that suggests that there were no attempts to avoid such deaths, if not in some cases wanting those deaths to occur. For example i read a report a while ago about a group of Israeli soldiers who spoke out about there superiors telling them to 'shoot first' regardless and to attack whatever looks suspicious and things of the like.

I can understand your acceptance of the occurrence of such civilian deaths in the first place due to the circumstances, but you certainly would agree that the number of those deaths, is completely not justified when we put in mind why it is as such, right? (without exempting Hamas of part of the responsibility).

 

[xkatz]

this is the most obvious manifestation of undue importance regarding the divine right of passage to a teenie tiny slab of land... it's actually being intellectually dishonest given the knowledge of how small we are ...guess this feeling of our lack of importance gives us the napoleon complex...

can't we just get along...

I think you actually make a good point waitasec. We should remember that some things are more important than Eretz Yisrael (and whatever Muslims call it). I wish we all could get along but some things just are not easy and don't have an easy solution. But, in the end, we shouldn't look to this tiny parcel of land, but to G-d.

 

[Badran]

because not everyone will agree that that one solution will be in the best interest of everyone involved.
Ok. Yosi suggested, Arab countries exiled Jewish citizens and stole their rightfully owned land. Israel has the right to do the same. Who is happy here?
Certainly not Arabs, as most feel they have the right to all of the Arabian Peninsula.

Suppose Israel allowed the right of return for Arabs, as well as rights to regain land they either abandoned or sold(which some did), or access to land the Ottoman Empire sold to Jews prior to their demise. Who is happy? Certainly not the Jews, because they feel this is their land, by right, because the land they now live on was either sold to them or left abandoned.

Suppose, the Jews demand right of return to the lands their ancestors owned in Syria, Yemen Egypt, and the West Bank? Who is happy? Certainly not the Arabs, much for the same reason as the Jews would not be happy. Land was abandoned or they bought it.
Suppose it was a one state solution, in which Jews and Palestinians shared land and government and the name remained Israel. Who would be happy here? Certainly not the rest of the Arab world, because while the Palestinians may be happy, it goes against what the rest Arabia would want. Their pawn would cease to exist and Israel would remain. Now, who in their right mind would want that?
Suppose we follow the same as above, a one state solution and change the name to Palestine? Who would be happy? This one is feasible but many Israelis would not be happy at the name change and some Arabs would still be unhappy because there are still Jews there.

this can go on and on. My husband, Yosi, and I have discussed this in depth. There is no easy way out of this problem. the Jews can't, or won't move(for various reasons) and the Arab League can't, or won't move(also for various reason)
There can never be one solution that will make everyone happy. It is not possible.

I understand what you're saying, and agree to the extent that there certainly isn't an easy way out, but i think its possible. In my opinion the bold part may contain the solution. Palestinians and Israelis are the ones whose opinions matter the most in this conflict. If either of the one state solutions you mentioned is going to meet both sides interests and needs, it doesn't matter what other countries think. Of course i realize it matters in the extent that they have an influence in the matter, but they are not the main concern, and i don't think many if any of them will have the audacity to object if the day came that Palestinians and Israelis have reached a solution that might work to an extent.

Also, i should emphasize that it is not my wish that the Jews get out, neither do i think its fair that they get out. I only have a problem with the government. That may not be the sentiments of many others, but in the end some people might feel that way and others won't. So like i said i think if actually we reached the point where both Palestinians and Israelis reached some form of possible agreement, we'll be well on our way to a solution. I may be too optimistic, or may be i fail to see other complications, but i don't think we should think of this as unsolvable, as all other alternatives are ugly to put it lightly.

 

[waitasec]

I think you actually make a good point waitasec. We should remember that some things are more important than Eretz Yisrael (and whatever Muslims call it). I wish we all could get along but some things just are not easy and don't have an easy solution. But, in the end, we shouldn't look to this tiny parcel of land, but to G-d.

the question is, who's god?
who's version of god, who's understanding of god that justfies hate because the "others" have the wrong idea of their god.

 

[xkatz]

the question is, who's god?
who's version of god, who's understanding of god that justfies hate because the "others" have the wrong idea of their god.

Any "version" of G-d. Any religion and set of beliefs can be manipulated to justify hatred towards others.

 

[Rakhel]

I understand what you're saying, and agree to the extent that there certainly isn't an easy way out, but i think its possible. In my opinion the bold part may contain the solution. Palestinians and Israelis are the ones whose opinions matter the most in this conflict. If either of the one state solutions you mentioned is going to meet both sides interests and needs, it doesn't matter what other countries think. Of course i realize it matters in the extent that they have an influence in the matter, but they are not the main concern, and i don't think many if any of them will have the audacity to object if the day came that Palestinians and Israelis have reached a solution that might work to an extent.

But that is a decision they, Palestinians and Israelis, must make on their own. To have outside forces force a solution that neither agree on is a recipe for disaster. It will fail before it can ever be carried out.

Also, i should emphasize that it is not my wish that the Jews get out, neither do i think its fair that they get out. I only have a problem with the government. That may not be the sentiments of many others, but in the end some people might feel that way and others won't. So like i said i think if actually we reached the point where both Palestinians and Israelis reached some form of possible agreement, we'll be well on our way to a solution. I may be too optimistic, or may be i fail to see other complications, but i don't think we should think of this as unsolvable, as all other alternatives are ugly to put it lightly.

I must say, you are one of the few, on line and off, that I have run across that does not bang their chest and yell "_____ bad. ______ good!" and that is very refreshing.

 

[Badran]

But that is a decision they, Palestinians and Israelis, must make on their own. To have outside forces force a solution that neither agree on is a recipe for disaster. It will fail before it can ever be carried out.

I agree, any solution forced on them certainly won't have hope of working unless both sides agree to it.

I must say, you are one of the few, on line and off, that I have run across that does not bang their chest and yell "_____ bad. ______ good!" and that is very refreshing.

Thank you, your honest and neutral approach is very much appreciated as well.

 

[waitasec]

Any "version" of G-d. Any religion and set of beliefs can be manipulated to justify hatred towards others.

exactly my point...
it's a subjected justification for anything really.

 

[HiddenDjinn]

Badran,
Population transfer is a legal action under the first Geneva Convention to ensure peace after a conflict. Moving hostile elements out of lands that have been taken in conflict, and receiving friendly elements from the lands taken and/or held by the enemy in the previous conflict. The problem, too much time has passed since Israel took lands that contains that hostile element. I fear it will take another major conflict to effect a peaceful population transfer and ensure longer term calm. I didn't say it was nice, but it's much more humane and civilized than what is happening now.

 

[waitasec]

I fear it will take another major conflict to effect a peaceful population transfer and ensure longer term calm. I didn't say it was nice, but it's much more humane and civilized than what is happening now.

whaaaaaaa?
:thud:



this is absolutely insane.
:areyoucra
only religion can make sense of this fantastical delusion...
and at what expense?
get over yourselves already....

 

[RitalinO.D.]

Israel is an entity which is established on injustice and the bloodshed of innocents, violence is its policy and approach. It doesn't understand the language of peace, peace which is built on justice, such an entity will not withstand so much in our region, as I believe that its stupidity and arrogance which makes it act unwisely although it is apparent that the region has been changed and the old techniques wouldn't work any more, like its continuous attacks on Gaza Strip, and on Egypt's borders with Gaza...This unwise step reminds me of Mubarak's reaction on the protests which resulted in his resignation...

You pretty much just described Islam since the 7th century.