"I am the way"

[ManSinha]

Actually, it is the spiritual principles of the Baha'i Faith that will first unite humanity, and not belief in the mesage of the Baha'i Faith. I believe that is well on the way.

I have Baha'i's talking about universality of peoples but the moment you utter the words "Spiritual principles will unite" - you figuratively shoot your argument in the foot. As a scientific concept one cannot take two incomplete / inconsistent / opposing concepts and create a meaningful whole out of them. As has been borne out again and again even on this RF - only those that have chosen the Baha'i way in life agree - the others don't.

I would state that the dharmic principles stand a much better chance of getting people thinking simply because of the reality people worship different aspects of the deity and live in harmony and have done so for centuries.

This assumption on what 'someone' says about the Baha'i Faith and evolution is based on limited citations from the biased perspective.

But those are the very individuals your religion seeks to unite - if you decline to engage then you have no way of advancing your argument

 

[loverofhumanity]

You really believe what unites people is a shared belief? I don't think that has nearly the energy for that end. I think Love is what unites, not beliefs. For instance, you will never get me to believe in a "messenger" that tells us the right things to believe in. That concept is completely foreign to my understanding of the nature of the Divine. It works for some, but not for me, nor ever will.

What will however, is the recognition of the Divine spark within all of us that sees each other across the divides of divergent beliefs. Everyone has that spark of Divine Love within them. You can see it in the eyes of a child, whose heads have not yet been programmed with all this "belief" stuff. When we can see beyond our beliefs, beyond our religions, then there will be Unity. We don't need another belief system.


All endeavours of humanity seeking connection to the greater whole is part of the same impulse. Religion is just one expression of that. Science is another. Culture is another. Religion, like a raft that one uses to carry themselves across the river, must at some point be abandoned in order to walk on the shore at the destination side.


Absolutely not at all. It's not a matter of "refusal". It's a matter of it doesn't speak to them. The Prophet model speaks to those that need to be told truth from outside of themselves. It speaks to those who see Truth as external to themselves. I am not one of those.


I think where you, and those like yourself fail to grasp this is that you see uniformity of beliefs as the same thing as unity. I do not. Uniformity is an artificial unity. What happens when someone has a different thought? Cohesiveness is destroyed, and in many tribes, so is the person who thought outside the approved beliefs.

Unity on the other hand is held together through the bonds of Love. Love allows for diversity of thoughts and beliefs. It sees each other with Grace, and understands that all beliefs, including our own, are simply window-dressings, not Truth itself.

A lot of these ideas are good and noble but so far they have failed to materialise into world peace and unity on the ground.

 

[ManSinha]

A lot of these ideas are good and noble but so far they have failed to materialise into world peace and unity on the ground.

And so have the Baha'i 's - been around since 1844

And yet there have been two world wars and many smaller conflicts and a continuing campaign of terror that seems to morph every few years from the taliban to al qaeda to white supremacy to ISIL

Around 180 years should be enough to admit that the methods advocated by this faith do not exactly work either

 

[Vinayaka]

I would state that the dharmic principles stand a much better chance of getting people thinking simply because of the reality people worship different aspects of the deity and live in harmony and have done so for centuries.

But those are the very individuals your religion seeks to unite - if you decline to engage then you have no way of advancing your argument

Not to mention the dharmic faiths outnumber Baha'i by about 1000 to 1. But the squeaky wheel gets the grease. Unity is such poor choice of words. What the world needs is co-operation, not everyone converting to the same faith.

And it's happening, all over. It's just that the dharmic faiths rarely make any noise about it. Very few people know that there is a free meal every day in larger gurdwaras. At pilgrimage sites all over India, the pilgrims get free food. So much humanitarian work goes one, and nobody's bragging about it.

 

[InChrist]

Sure of what? That Resurrection day will never come?

Because in over 6000 years of recorded human history it has not happened and no one for that matter has been seen to come back once dead either - there are schools of philosophy such as Samkhya that explain why such happenings are impossible added to my own understanding of how the world functions - my study of those leads me to be sure (just as you seem to be from studying your material)

You can take that "prophecy" I made to the bank - that R day will not happen before your and my passage from this world

So because an event has not happened yet, you are sure it will never happen? Have you spent much time studying what the biblical scriptures and/or the words of Jesus say concerning the last days and His return?

 

[loverofhumanity]

And so have the Baha'i 's - been around since 1844

And yet there have been two world wars and many smaller conflicts and a continuing campaign of terror that seems to morph every few years from the taliban to al qaeda to white supremacy to ISIL

Around 180 years should be enough to admit that the methods advocated by this faith do not exactly work either

Our methods have never been tried yet. But they have been tried and tested and work for us. We have a world community comprised of all races, nationalities, religions and cultures in complete peace and harmony. We have offered that model to the world and the UN for their consideration for a future world society.

The Bahá’í Peace Plan has been offered to the world, all governments and the UN and all' people so it is up to them to adopt it or not.

The Promise of World Peace—The Universal House of Justice

It does not involve anyone becoming a Baha’i.

It is based primarily on love for all humanity.

A Baha’i denies no religion; he accepts the Truth in all, and would die to uphold it. He loves all men as his brothers, of whatever class, of whatever race or nationality, of whatever creed or colour, whether good or bad, rich or poor, beautiful or hideous. He commits no violence; if he is struck he does not return the blow. – Abdu’l-Baha in London, p. 56.

 

[Vinayaka]

Our methods have never been tried yet. But they have been tried and tested and work for us. We have a world community comprised of all races, nationalities, religions and cultures in complete peace and harmony. We have offered that model to the world and the UN for their consideration for a future world society.

You do? What about all the ex-Baha'is? What about the liberal Baha'is who disagree with the UHJ? What about the history of all the covenant breakers? What about the free Baha'i groups, or the Bayani?That's peace and harmony?

Again, just because someone makes a declaration, doesn't mean it's true. Have you listened to politicians lately?

 

[CG Didymus]

A Baha’i denies no religion; he accepts the Truth in all

They do? Okay, I guess they do. They accept what they, the Baha'is, say is the truth in all religions. But, that's a lot different than accepting that everything in all religions is true, because Baha'is don't. So, to me, that is not accepting all religions. That's making all religions into what you want them to be. And that don't bring peace and harmony.

Oh, and about the peace plan, how do Baha'is apply it to themselves? Do you have programs instituted to put some of your ideas into action?

 

[loverofhumanity]

You do? What about all the ex-Baha'is? What about the liberal Baha'is who disagree with the UHJ? What about the history of all the covenant breakers? What about the free Baha'i groups, or the Bayani?That's peace and harmony?

Again, just because someone makes a declaration, doesn't mean it's true. Have you listened to politicians lately?

This is only one Baha’i World Community in existence. The only World Community of it’s kind that speaks with one voice.

A Global Community | The Bahá’í Faith

Bahá’í International Community

 

[loverofhumanity]

They do? Okay, I guess they do. They accept what they, the Baha'is, say is the truth in all religions. But, that's a lot different than accepting that everything in all religions is true, because Baha'is don't. So, to me, that is not accepting all religions. That's making all religions into what you want them to be. And that don't bring peace and harmony.

Oh, and about the peace plan, how do Baha'is apply it to themselves? Do you have programs instituted to put some of your ideas into action?

Hi CG. You’re no doubt aware of our Ruhi programs?

We build spiritual communities teaching our children and youth love for all humanity and love for all religions. So at an early age we teach all our people that all humanity is one family, that none are superior, no race, religion or nationality including our own are better than anyone else. We teach our communities to be prejudice free. Also we teach them virtues such as kindness, patience, tolerance, love and justice.

We have courses which teach spiritual life to our communities and Baha’is all over the world in over 300 countries are doing the same set of courses worldwide.

It’s called community building. And based in the Teachings of Baha’u’llah on the oneness of all humanity.

Frontiers of Learning

See ye no strangers; rather see all men as friends, for love and unity come hard when ye fix your gaze on otherness. … For each of the creatures is a sign of God, and it was by the grace of the Lord and His power that each did step into the world; therefore they are not strangers, but in the family; not aliens, but friends, and to be treated as such.”Abdul-Baha

 

[ManSinha]

We have a world community comprised of all races, nationalities, religions and cultures in complete peace and harmony

Each of the different iterations of Christians could say that - so could the Sunnis and Shia - they live in complete peace and harmony. Does the Qu'ran not say something similar? It is always when interacting with those that do not agree with one - that is when the trouble starts.

Also in a different thread I quoted from the Kitab-i-Aqdas where burning an arsonist was condoned and there was dowry limitations for marriage. @shunyadragon is fond of saying - each religion has its age - that is true IMO of all the Abrahamic faiths and the time for the teachings of the Baha'i may be in our rear view mirror.

Again from where I and many others sit - any religion that purports to have criminal laws for society - is a relic in the current age.

 

[Windwalker]

Either/or any version of Love or love, is far to vague as you refer to to unit anything alone.

You think God's Love is vague??? They why are you religious? Seriously. Why?

Never claimed that. Your over stateing my statements to justify your agenda.

What is my "agenda"? When you think you know what that is, please share it with me, as I have no idea what that might be. What's your "agenda"?

True, but equally true that your assertions are problematic.

What specifically is problematic for you in what I say with your beliefs?

Absolutely NO.

Really? So sure of this, are you? Care to support that?

I would neither support nor reject base don this limited anecdotal mine field.

So you'll avoid answering the question. I know why you would. Because the answer is you wouldn't accept them as believing in God for not believing in the prophet. That's why. The house of cards collapses. It's not universal at all.

Base on what you previously stated you object to "beliefs." The difference between beliefs and Love or love is to vague and anecdotal for your view to be no more than your anecdotal view.

I never objected to beliefs, other than the beliefs that belief is more important than Love. This is the 2nd time you have misrepresented my position. This is not honesty. And that you find Love, God's Love, to be vague, says something. In fact, it says everything.

No assumptions made other than those you stated yourself..

No. You read into what I was saying, that I never said. You put words into my mouth. You are creating strawmen, someone who is not me. And not taking responsibility for that. Again. it lacks honesty.

Exactly as stated.

The way you stated it made no sense. I asked for clarification. You respond with a non-response. Again, why?

This assumption on what 'someone' says about the Baha'i Faith and evolution is based on limited citations from the biased perspective.

No it is not. It is based on repeated, actual, firsthand experience talking with people from the Bahai'i faith here on this forum. This was their responses, and your response is trying to skirt around it rather than answering directly, and honestly, like the others I have spoken to here.

It's clear to me what the answer is, because I've asked it multiple time. And again now. But this time, it's just avoidance as a response, saying I have an "agenda" or some sort, which you have made up in your mind in an attempt to distract from this.

The Baha'i Faith writings clearly states that the harmony of science and religion, and that ALL scripture including the Bah'i scripture MUST be interpreted and understood in the light of the evolving knowledge of science.

Do you believe that humans evolved from another, non-human species, such as a fish? Yes, or no? Answer that question directly. I have been quoted by a Baha'i that says clearly humans have always existed from day one as humans, and did not evolve from another species, flatly disagreeing with the science. That humans are not animals, etc. And that one day science will see the Prophet was right, etc. Was this other member wrong, and the passages he quoted to me not saying this? Yes, or no?

NO! It is just that your anecdotal subjective assertions concerning the unifying possibilities of Divine Love is not meaningful.

Considering you think God's Love is vague, I'd say the failure here resides on your end.

 

[ManSinha]

So because an event has not happened yet, you are sure it will never happen? Have you spent much time studying what the biblical scriptures and/or the words of Jesus say concerning the last days and His return?

Actually I have - have read the Revelation and its seven seals; have read the prophecies of the book of Daniel
I, unlike you apparently, have a far more open minded view

 

[Windwalker]

A lot of these ideas are good and noble but so far they have failed to materialise into world peace and unity on the ground.

Neither has religion achieved this.

 

[The Anointed]

Do you really want to tell a Hindu his own theology?

The sound that created the universe is not speech. It is aum. Aum is nada brahma.

Brahman - Wikipedia



Trying to equate and universalize Hindi and Christianity is a reach at best, if not downright MUS.

And which of the many denominations of Hinduism do you belong to?

And which of the many gods and goddess' do you worship?

The root to the word “BRAHMAN” originally meant “SPEECH”, much the same as the “LOGOS” is said to mean ‘WORD.

The Rig Veda states that Brahman extends as far as Vāc, and has hymns in praise of SPEECH AS THE CREATOR.

Shabda Brahman From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Shabda Brahman or Sabda-brahman or Nada brahmin means transcendental sound (Shatapatha Brahmana III.12.48) or sound vibration (Shatpatha Brahmana Vi.16.51) or the transcendental sound of the Vedas (Shatpatha Brahmana Xi.21.36) or of Vedic scriptures (Shatpatha Brahmana X.20.43).

Nada Brahmin Tradition

Shabda or sabda stands for word manifested by sound ('verbal') and such a word has innate power to convey a particular sense or meaning (Artha). According to the Nyaya and the Vaisheshika schools, Shabda means verbal testimony; to the Sanskrit grammarians, Yaska, Panini and Katyayana it meant a unit of language or speech or vac. In the philosophical terms this word appears for the first time in the Maitri Upanishad (Sloka VI.22) that speaks of two kinds of Brahman - Shabda Brahman ('Brahman with sound') and Ashabda Brahman ('soundless Brahman'). Bhartrhari speaks about the creative power of shabda, the manifold universe is a creation of Shabda Brahman (Brihadaranyaka Upanishad IV.i.2). Speech is equated with Brahman (Shatpatha Brahmana 2.1.4.10).The Rig Veda states that Brahman extends as far as Vāc (R.V.X.114.8), and has hymns in praise of Speech as the Creator (R.V.X.71.7) and as the final abode of Brahman (R.V.I.164.37). Time is the creative power of Shabda Brahman.

The Greek word “LOGOS” which has been translated as “WORD”, should be seen as ‘The thoughts in the mind which are to be expressed.

The term, “LOGOS” pertains to the very plan from the outset. [The creation of a universal body in which a Supreme mind or personality of Godhead to that body, develops.] In Sanskrit the similar meaning is given in the use of the word 'vach.' Vach means word. But in Sanskrit teachings of the Sanatana Dharma, vach has many levels. Including where the word is first considered as being in the mind as a thought, not as the spoken WORD or SPEECH.

Both Logos and Brahman, are seen as the essential divine reality of the universe, the eternal spirit from which all being originates and to who all being must return, and at the close of each cycle of universal activity, when all is returned to the collective consciousness of all that the eternal spirit has become, the MOST HIGH to have developed within the active cycle, enters into LOGOS=BRAHMAN as the Supreme Personality of Godhead within the eternal evolving collective consciousness.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Each of the different iterations of Christians could say that - so could the Sunnis and Shia - they live in complete peace and harmony. Does the Qu'ran not say something similar? It is always when interacting with those that do not agree with one - that is when the trouble starts.

Also in a different thread I quoted from the Kitab-i-Aqdas where burning an arsonist was condoned and there was dowry limitations for marriage. @shunyadragon is fond of saying - each religion has its age - that is true IMO of all the Abrahamic faiths and the time for the teachings of the Baha'i may be in our rear view mirror.

Again from where I and many others sit - any religion that purports to have criminal laws for society - is a relic in the current age.

The Christians and Muslims are divided into many sects and are unable to unite themselves even as we saw there was the Iraq and Iran war where one million were killed in a war between Sunni and Shia. Similar wars have broken out between Christian and Protestant and Christianity is divided into about 40,000 sects.

There is only one Bahá’í World Community worldwide and it is not split into sects. It speaks with one voice and is representative as an NGO at the UN. We have no wars civil or otherwise with ourselves or between any others and co exist peacefully with all religions, races and cultures.

As to the death penalty. In the Kitab-i-Aqdas there is also the option of life imprisonment so it does not have to be the death penalty.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Neither has religion achieved this.

True up until now. Only time will tell but so far Baha’is are not involved in any wars just peace building activities.

Even our beliefs which say it’s better to be killed than to kill are shaping our identity towards a non aggressive peace loving community more along the lines of ahimsa of the Hindus and the law to befriend other religions and that Holy War is forbidden promotes peace and goodwill towards those who are different.

 

[Firemorphic]

The Christians and Muslims are divided into many sects and are unable to unite themselves

The divide (in Islam) is far smaller than you pretend but there are major differences between Sunnism and Shi'ism, yes.
Shi'ism itself is quite inclusive and it's different splinters within itself aren't near as discernibly different (except for Ismailism's pope-like structure) in practice, than Sunnism is to Shi'ism in general. Alike how your religion (coming out of a Gnostic, mystical eschatological sect in Shi'ism) takes most of it's ideas from Shi'ism and Sufism.

The two biggest differences between Sunnism and Shi'ism is over philosophy/metaphysics and most historically notable; the Succession of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh).

There is only one Bahá’í World Community worldwide and it is not split into sects.

Well, I wouldn't exactly say that so quickly.

 

[loverofhumanity]

The divide (in Islam) is far smaller than you pretend but there are major differences between Sunnism and Shi'ism, yes.
Shi'ism itself is quite inclusive and it's different splinters within itself aren't near as discernibly different (except for Ismailism's pope-like structure) in practice, than Sunnism is to Shi'ism in general. Alike how your religion (coming out of a Gnostic, mystical eschatological sect in Shi'ism) takes most of it's ideas from Shi'ism and Sufism.

The two biggest differences between Sunnism and Shi'ism is over philosophy/metaphysics and most historically notable; the Succession of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh).



Well, I wouldn't exactly say that so quickly.

There is the difference in Caliphsv vs Imams which is quite a difference, but their conflicts have been very spiteful. Over a million dead in their last war I would call very hostile.

There are individuals who put up slander and inuendo but they do not represent the Baha’i Faith only their own personal views. We focus on peace building and bridge building. In your graph others may make claims but all they are is individuals & websites with the purpose of criticising and attacking others beliefs. In contrast below are our qualifications and recognition in the world community.

The Baha’i World Community is representative of a cross section of humanity and is working towards the establishment of world peace. We are officially represented at the UN as an NGO and have been since it’s inception.

A Global Community | The Bahá’í Faith

Bahá’í International Community

 

[Jainarayan]

And which of the many denominations of Hinduism do you belong to?

I’m Vaishnava, the denomination that worships Vishnu primarily.

And which of the many gods and goddess' do you worship?

Many of them at some time or another. Krishna is my ishta-devata. Vishnu and his avatars, Shiva and his forms, Durga, Kali, Lakshmi, Ganesha, Hanuman, Saraswati, Subramaniya, Ayyappa.

Though I don’t see how any of that is relevant.

Psst... you’re still twisting and misconstruing. There’s NO, and I repeat NO connection etymological or conceptually between Brahman and Logos.