I Can Not Respect A God who Allows Children to Suffer

[Just_me_Mike]

More like He KNEW we would sin, so it was necessary to have a savior. But He didnt create to be sinners so He could die. He knew creating us with the power of choice, we would choose wrong many times. But it was love that kept Him from making us robots. Had he dne so, we would serve Him because thats all we knew. Not because we loved Him. Doesnt make sense that He would create us to sin JUST so He could die.

You say it doesn't make sense, but I bet calculus didn't the first time you saw that either. It is best to crawl before you walk.

 

[LyricalDutchess]

No, it really doesn't, because you don't have to be a robot to be good.
If you do, God must be a robot, and we should start wondering who programmed him.

You do. Because if God created us without choice.......we really would be robots. We would, again, serve Him because thats what we were programmed or created to do. If one is in a prison, they do what the warden says, when they say to do it. Take that, on top of not being able to think for yourself. You would want that? Or you'd rather God to create us that way?

 

[LyricalDutchess]

You say it doesn't make sense, but I bet calculus didn't the first time you saw that either. It is best to crawl before you walk.

I will be the FIRST to say that much of my faith is illogical. Whats logical about a God having to come down as man to die for our sins?

What i think makes no sense is why in the world would God create us to sin, yet punish us for doing exactly what He created us to do?

 

[Smoke]

Not everything we do wrong is down to satan instant influence. If only you would take the time to read posts with more patience and meditation we would not be bombarded with erronious questions.

How can a question be erroneous? I'm just asking you to explain your beliefs.

How many more times do we have to tell you that generally speaking man does not choose to sin (some do) but does not always see/recognize sin or evil because it is hidden and /or presented as attractive. Satan is not that open and above board and naturally man is at a disadvantage because we are weak in flesh and spirit. We thus give way to our own desires too.
God does not have to persuade man or plead with us to be good - that would infringe on our free will which God allows for better or worse. He gave man 6000 years to do our own thing (if we so wish). He stands by with help and advice for those who seek him, for the rest we bear our own responsibility.

So here's what you seem to be saying. We sin because:

1) We desire to.
2) We're deceived by Satan.

And you say that it would infringe on our free will for God to persuade us to be good.

So my questions are:

1) Why did God create us as beings who desire to sin?
2) Why does God abandon us to Satan's wiles? Didn't God know that we wouldn't be any match for Satan?
3) If it would infringe on our free will for God to persuade us to do good, doesn't it also infringe on our free will for Satan to persuade us to do bad?

 

[Just_me_Mike]

Smoke I did answer, Jesus had to come because we needed a savior. I said Jesus and god are the same. What I did not say was why Jesus and god have to be one.

They have to be one because if anyone other than god paid for our sins we would glory them rather than god. God won't have that so god took on human nature, and became the only perfect human.

God made sure no one else would be perfect, so god could be gloried above all.

 

[MSizer]

You do. Because if God created us without choice.......we really would be robots. We would, again, serve Him because thats what we were programmed or created to do. If one is in a prison, they do what the warden says, when they say to do it. Take that, on top of not being able to think for yourself. You would want that? Or you'd rather God to create us that way?

But you're saying that from the perspective of one who isn't that way, so you're not considering that it would in fact probably be a lot nicer, since there would be no need for free will. There are many things that aren't possible to us now, but we're used to it being that way, and we accept it. You're failing to step out of your frame of reference. Why in the world wouldn't we want God to have made us perfect at the expense of free will. That wouldn't be like prison, that would be bliss.

 

[Smoke]

You do

So then you will never, ever be good?
And you will never, ever want to be good?
Because if you have to be a robot to be good, I don't want to be good.

 

[Smoke]

Smoke I did answer, Jesus had to come because we needed a savior. I said Jesus and god are the same. What I did not say was why Jesus and god have to be one.

They have to be one because if anyone other than god paid for our sins we would glory them rather than god. God won't have that so god took on human nature, and became the only perfect human.

God made sure no one else would be perfect, so god could be gloried above all.

See, though, that just makes your God a lunatic.

He made us sin so we would have a savior.
The reason we need a savior is because we sinned.

The Calvinist God is the biggest rat fink of all the gods.

 

[LyricalDutchess]

But you're saying that from the perspective of one who isn't that way, so you're not considering that it would in fact probably be a lot nicer, since there would be no need for free will. There are many things that aren't possible to us now, but we're used to it being that way, and we accept it. You're failing to step out of your frame of reference. Why in the world wouldn't we want God to have made us perfect at the expense of free will. That wouldn't be like prison, that would be bliss.

Many say that. Thing is, God didnt want mindless worshippers. He wanted to love and be loved.

 

[MSizer]

Many say that. Thing is, God didnt want mindless worshippers. He wanted to love and be loved.

And you know this how? And so he was prepared to allow babies to be raped as a tradeoff to getting things his way? Let He be damned, no matter the consequence then. His selfishness is inexcusable.

 

[LyricalDutchess]

So then you will never, ever be good?
And you will never, ever want to be good?
Because if you have to be a robot to be good, I don't want to be good.

No. Im saying that God didnt want mindless worshipers. He wanted us to follow Him out of choice. Not force.

 

[Smoke]

No. Im saying that God didnt want mindless worshipers. He wanted us to follow Him out of choice. Not force.

You mean it's possible to be the kind of person who has free will, and is not a robot, but chooses not to sin?

Do you think you'll ever be that kind of person? In heaven, maybe?

 

[Beta]

It may be combinations of things, but all those combinations of things go back to our human nature, and it seems nobody can answer the question of why God made human nature as he did, yet blames us for it.

Perhaps you missed my post explaining that God did not create human nature per se.
When mankind disobeyed they/we took on the nature of satan whom they obeyed. Had mankind obeyed God by eating of the tree of Life they/we would have taken on God's nature.
In the NT Era man is given the opportunity to be purified or re-born to a new life doing away with the old ,stained and perverted nature that causes so much suffering.
We are given opportunity to concentrate on a new beginning - why dwell on what is past ?

 

[Smoke]

Perhaps you missed my post explaining that God did not create human nature per se.
When mankind disobeyed they/we took on the nature of satan whom they obeyed. Had mankind obeyed God by eating of the tree of Life they/we would have taken on God's nature.

But why did God make them so that they would not obey him?

 

[LyricalDutchess]

And you know this how? And so he was prepared to allow babies to be raped as a tradeoff to getting things his way? Let He be damned, no matter the consequence then. His selfishness is inexcusable.

His word gives us a glimpse at His mind, and His character. Personal experience furthers that. And if you want to be forced to do something, than thats you. But as a whole, no one wants to be forced to do a thing.

As a child who was raped, i'll never fully understand it either. But the latter was so much greater than the pain. Because i can know help others get through. Mom always told me, "not all of our trials are necessarily for us. But rather for others." Its hard. Its life. Its how we choose to deal with the hardships life throws at us that determines the outcome. Either we can dwell on what isnt, or we can take it as is and grow from it.

 

[MSizer]

Perhaps you missed my post explaining that God did not create human nature per se.
...

So god only "partially" created us then? And there is not creator for human nature? It just spontaneously generated by no creator? Why then only part of us?

 

[LyricalDutchess]

You mean it's possible to be the kind of person who has free will, and is not a robot, but chooses not to sin?

Do you think you'll ever be that kind of person? In heaven, maybe?

Yes. It is possible. Jesus told mary, when He kept them from stoning her, to go and sin no more. Because we have sinned before, is why we arent perfect. But we cant continue in that sin. When Christ enters, a change happens.

But we wont be perfect until the last day.

 

[MSizer]

His word gives us a glimpse at His mind, and His character. Personal experience furthers that. And if you want to be forced to do something, than thats you. But as a whole, no one wants to be forced to do a thing.

As a child who was raped, i'll never fully understand it either. But the latter was so much greater than the pain. Because i can know help others get through. Mom always told me, "not all of our trials are necessarily for us. But rather for others." Its hard. Its life. Its how we choose to deal with the hardships life throws at us that determines the outcome. Either we can dwell on what isnt, or we can take it as is and grow from it.

Well with all due respect (sincerely), I don't follow your train of thought. It is unsystematic to me, and I can't do anything but dismiss it as poor logic. It's not personal, I don't mean to offend you, I simply disagree wholeheartedly.

 

[Smoke]

Yes. It is possible.

Then why didn't God make us that way?

 

[LyricalDutchess]

Then why didn't God make us that way?

He did. He made as clean slates. With a choice. Im personally grateful for the power choice. To me, its a sign of His great agape love.