I Can Not Respect A God who Allows Children to Suffer

[Danmac]

What atheists are laying the blame for suffering at a supposed god's feet?

Why not the flying spaghetti monster?

Suffering is an unfortunate occurence, either thru random natural catastrophies, or deliberate war, is has nothing to do with nonexistent gods.

Now that is frubal worthy.

 

[Danmac]

It's called the "argument from evil"

The idea is this:

Either God wants to abolish evil and cannot,

Oh he could, that is if you would like to be R2D2

or he can but does not want to,

He will in his time.

or he cannot and does not want to,

Free will and a cursed nature equals evil desires.

or lastly he can and wants to.

Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven

If he wants to remove evil, and cannot,
he is not omnipotent;

He would have to remove free will.

If he can, but does not want to,
he is not benevolent;

He designs consequences. No one gets away with evil.

If he neither can nor wants to,
he is neither omnipotent nor benevolent;

He authors consequences. No one gets a free pass.

But if God can abolish evil and wants to,
how does evil exist?

Because Satan rebelled and took one third of the angels with him. He is the author of all evil. He has free will and God cannot interfere with free will. He can only give consequences.

 

[The_Evelyonian]

Because Satan rebelled and took one third of the angels with him. He is the author of all evil. He has free will and God cannot interfere with free will. He can only give consequences.

and....who created Satan?

 

[Danmac]

and....who created Satan?

The American voter.

 

[The_Evelyonian]

The American voter.

Ah, of course.

 

[Danmac]

Ah, of course.

Any other ideas?

 

[The_Evelyonian]

Any other ideas?

No, not really. Humans are responsible for the rest of them; The Tooth Fairy, The Easter Bunny, Santa Claus, god. I guess it's only natural that they would have come up with the devil too.

 

[Scott C.]

and....who created Satan?

God did. But Satan wasn't evil when created. He exercised his free will to become evil.

 

[The_Evelyonian]

God did. But Satan wasn't evil when created. He exercised his free will to become evil.

So god created satan and put the gun in his hand (free-will), yes?

 

[Scott C.]

It's an intellectual argument. For the sake of debate, I'm granting that the Abrahamic god exists, even though I don't believe it to be so. I'm just pointing out that even if he did exist, I'd not be able to revere him.

The Bible establishes the existence of God and his attributes. If you're assuming for the sake of argument that the God of the Bible is real, then it's consistent that you also assume that the God of the Bible possesses the attributes ascribed to him by the Bible. Those attributes are infinite wisdom, mercy, and justice, with a plan for the benefit of all mankind. You can revere this God. If you think that your world observations contradict this nature of God, then you are no longer assuming that the God of the Bible exists. It's not possible that the God of the Bible exists and yet is not worthy of our reverence.

 

[The_Evelyonian]

The Bible establishes the existence of God and his attributes. If you're assuming for the sake of argument that the God of the Bible is real, then it's consistent that you also assume that the God of the Bible possesses the attributes ascribed to him by the Bible. Those attributes are infinite wisdom, mercy, and justice, with a plan for the benefit of all mankind. You can revere this God. If you think that your world observations contradict this nature of God, then you are no longer assuming that the God of the Bible exists. It's not possible that the God of the Bible exists and yet is not worthy of our reverence.

What about omniscience?

Omnipotence?

 

[Scott C.]

So god created satan and put the gun in his hand (free-will), yes?

God gives us agency, which is the ability to exercise or act out according to our will. I'm not so certain that he actually gives us our will. Individual will may be independent of God. At any rate, the free exercise of will is vital to God's plan of happiness for mankind.

 

[Scott C.]

What about omniscience?

Omnipotence?

Yes, those too.

 

[The_Evelyonian]

God gives us agency, which is the ability to exercise or act out according to our will. I'm not so certain that he actually gives us our will. Individual will may be independent of God. At any rate, the free exercise of will is vital to God's plan of happiness for mankind.

That doesn't answer my question. Did god give satan his free-will or not?

 

[The_Evelyonian]

Yes, those too.

So, an omniscient (all-knowing) god would have known satan's actions beforehand. yes?

He would have known that satan would rebel before he actually created him, right?

Plus, how does one deal with the fact that omniscience and omnipotence are mutually incompatible?

 

[Scott C.]

That doesn't answer my question. Did god give satan his free-will or not?

I don't know if God gives us free will. I believe that we might have free will independent of what God gives us. Free will may be the only thing we have that was not given to us by God. But again, God allows us to exercise our free will. So, Satan willed to be evil. God allowed Satan to exercise his will to be evil.

 

[The_Evelyonian]

I don't know if God gives us free will. I believe that we might have free will independent of what God gives us. Free will may be the only thing we have that was not given to us by God. But again, God allows us to exercise our free will. So, Satan willed to be evil. God allowed Satan to exercise his will to be evil.

So, if god allowed satan to be evil, then all of the suffering caused by satan is god's fault, yes?

 

[Scott C.]

So, an omniscient (all-knowing) god would have known satan's actions beforehand. yes?

He would have known that satan would rebel before he actually created him, right?

Plus, how does one deal with the fact that omniscience and omnipotence are mutually incompatible?

Yes, God knows beforehand what everyone will do. We are just mortals with severe limits on our ability to comprehend anything "omni". The words omnipotent and omniscient don't appear in the Bible, but yes I believe that God knows everything and has all power. If you think those are incompatible, it's because you, like the rest of us, don't comprehend the infinite.

 

[Scott C.]

So, if god allowed satan to be evil, then all of the suffering caused by satan is god's fault, yes?

God could stop all suffering in this world.

What makes you think that suffering is bad? Can you define suffering? Can you describe what eternal impact suffering of finite duration has on the eternal soul? Since you're assuming the God of the Bible exists, you need to also assume the eternal nature of the soul.

 

[The_Evelyonian]

Yes, God knows beforehand what everyone will do. We are just mortals with severe limits on our ability to comprehend anything "omni". The words omnipotent and omniscient don't appear in the Bible, but yes I believe that God knows everything and has all power. If you think those are incompatible, it's because you, like the rest of us, don't comprehend the infinite.

The contradiction goes like this:

Can an omniscient god find the omnipotence to change his future mind?

Basically the logic of it is thus:

If god is omniscient then he already knows every instance in which he will interfere in the affairs of man, and there is nothing he can do about it.

God can't change his mind because, if he did so, he would have already known in advance and thus, really wouldn't be changing his mind but simply doing that which he already knew he was going to do.

God is trapped by his own powers. In a sense, he has no free-will. If god is omniscient, then he can't be omnipotent.