I Can Not Respect A God who Allows Children to Suffer

[Beta]

Actually I understand your anger !
But what you are showing is the fact that the wicked are enemies of God Rom.8v7 and thus proof scripture and God to be correct about human nature.
Man has the ability to change his nature from hatred to love and care for the next man - but until we can show a similar love and understanding to God first the second commandment can not be fulfilled. You may want to help and save people with all your heart but it will prove pointless (in the long run) if GOD is not included.
You see God is working to bring man into an ETERNAL existence in which we must both be in harmonious agreement for there will be no fighting and emnity there. Since we enter HIS dimension we obviously have to learn HIS ways so we can become like HIM. But the way of Humans has become tainted and polluted by self-will. That is what God must correct IF WE LET HIM. This applies to all mankind.

 

[Beta]

I can see where you are coming from now -
and also that I am wasting my time.

 

[The_Evelyonian]

Actually I understand your anger !
But what you are showing is the fact that the wicked are enemies of God Rom.8v7 and thus proof scripture and God to be correct about human nature.

God's apathy towards his children's suffering proves that we are the wicked ones? Well, yes it would, wouldn't it? I mean, we actually try to help the homeless, the sick, the starving, and the dying, and when is the last time you saw god do anything like that? Yeah, I can definately see your point here

Man has the ability to change his nature from hatred to love and care for the next man - but until we can show a similar love and understanding to God first the second commandment can not be fulfilled.

"You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them or serve them; for I The Lord your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate Me, but showing steadfast love to thousands of those who love Me and keep My Commandments." (Exodus 20:4-6 RSV)

So god won't help us until we kiss his ***. Yeah, I can totally see god's love and justice in that thought.

You may want to help and save people with all your heart but it will prove pointless (in the long run) if GOD is not included.

God needs to include himself and quit waiting for us. His children are suffering and dying. We're the ones trying to save them. Where is god?!

You see God is working to bring man into an ETERNAL existence in which we must both be in harmonious agreement for there will be no fighting and emnity there. Since we enter HIS dimension we obviously have to learn HIS ways so we can become like HIM.

If god has the power to help but won't do it then I want to be nothing like him. He's an arrogant, apathetic, unjust, selfish *******.

But the way of Humans has become tainted and polluted by self-will.

Yeah, that's right. All we're doing is trying to help. We're the evil ones.

That is what God must correct IF WE LET HIM.

If we let him?! Think about that statement. Think real hard. If he's omnipotent then how could we possibly stop him? Either he wants to help here or he doesn't. If he wants to help then where the hell is he? What is he waiting for? His children, innocent men, women, and children are dying by the thousands every single day, and he's not gonna help because some people in the world are bad?! What the hell kind of a father is he?!

"Well, my child, I'd love to help, I really would, but there are some bad people in some other part of the world. You can see the bind I'm in..."

You say you understand my anger. You can't even begin to understand my anger. Everytime I hear someone tell me how loving god is, how much he cares, how merciful and just he is, it turns my stomach. Where is he in Darfur? Where is he in Haiti? Where is he in the starving and impoverished nations of the world where he is really needed?!

Every day 24,000 children die around the world.

That's 1 child every 3 seconds.

16-17 a minute.

A Haiti earthquake every 9-10 days.

An Indian Ocean Tsunami every 9-10 days.

That's just under 9 million children dying every year from preventable causes.

How can anyone worship a god who would allow this kind of misery to go on unchecked?

Never have the words rung truer: "Where is your god now?"

 

[Beta]

You insist that neither God nor I understand you and yes - that's what it looks like on the surface. I too am sickened by what is happening in the world but blaming God is just not going to help. I used to think so at one time , I felt as bad as you do.
And then I read what GOD had to say , how WE are the ones who must change so that evil no longer has any support from us. This made me re-think my situation. After all GOD has been around eternally and HE must know a thing or two of how that can be achieved and maintained. What do WE know living only for a few short years then want everything OUR way ? WHO should know best ?
It takes a humble nature to actually give GOD the credit rather than think ourselves all-knowing. In the Bible man is likened to soil (from which we come) and there are different types which either are good for growing and others so stoney nothing takes root not even the Word of God. Does that ring a bell ? Man is not yet a finished Creation and God is still having to put more knowledge into us to reach our intended potential. But it can only be done with our agreement and participation. God will not force any human to listen and accept him.
So there we are - it is MAN who must be changed and perfected not God himself who already is eternal. Man will wipe himself out if he does not listen to God yet you want HIM to listen to YOU ???
Human understanding has got life back to front !:yes:

 

[S-word]

I consider the explanation for the problem of evil using free will to be an ignorant one, but even if it were true, many innocent people, including children and non-human animals suffer as a result of things not caused by the free will of humans.

Babies were partially crushed and suffocated in collapsed buildings in Haity recently. A God who could allow such a thing is a horrific character IMO, and one to whom I could ever show any respect, no matter the consequences.

How do you justify worshipping a God who allegedly allows this?

Well speaking for myself, I'm glad that God let me put my hand in the fire and learn from the sufferings of my own mistakes.

I've left them in the desert, on the beach and in the snow
On the mountain tops, the river beds, in fact everywhere I go
Tiny footprints --- Indentations --- to mark the pathways that I've trod
Yet they vanish to the sight of all, except the piercing eye of God
And he's always been beside me, since the day I ceased to crawl
He watched me take my first small step, saw me stumble, saw me fall
Life lets me make my own mistakes, and god--- how many have I made?
But thank the Lord I've learned from them, that's how life's game is played.
The life I've lived, the guilt, the shame, but I wouldn't change a dot
For it's made me who I am today and to me that means a lot.
O, I'll never be an Einstein, a Rembrandt, or Khayyam
But I've gained a greater inner peace, and I'm content with who I am
Undoubtedly, I'll fall again, Mistakes will knock me off my feet
But they'll be new encounters mate, Past sins I'll not repeat
For I store the memory of my crimes, like others store their gold
And my treasure house keeps growing, as my future life unfolds. .....By S-word.

 

[The_Evelyonian]

You insist that neither God nor I understand you and yes - that's what it looks like on the surface. I too am sickened by what is happening in the world but blaming God is just not going to help. I used to think so at one time , I felt as bad as you do.
And then I read what GOD had to say , how WE are the ones who must change so that evil no longer has any support from us. This made me re-think my situation. After all GOD has been around eternally and HE must know a thing or two of how that can be achieved and maintained. What do WE know living only for a few short years then want everything OUR way ? WHO should know best ?

So, it's okay that millions die every year and god apparently has better things to do? You just don't get it, if god exists and if he is omnipotent then he is consciously making the choice not to help, to allow more of his children to suffer and die every day. I was wrong, if god is like that then that doesn't just make him an arrogant, apathetic, unjust *******, it makes him a murderer too.

It takes a humble nature to actually give GOD the credit rather than think ourselves all-knowing.

And what credit does god deserve? People are the ones doing all of the work. People are the ones trying to save the dying and end the world's misery. No, your god doesn't get any credit until he actually does something to earn it.

In the Bible man is likened to soil (from which we come) and there are different types which either are good for growing and others so stoney nothing takes root not even the Word of God. Does that ring a bell ? Man is not yet a finished Creation and God is still having to put more knowledge into us to reach our intended potential. But it can only be done with our agreement and participation. God will not force any human to listen and accept him.

So, I was right, god wants people to kiss his *** first. Then, maybe, he'll help out. Man, even Dawkins didn't paint as evil a god as you have succeeded in doing.

So there we are - it is MAN who must be changed and perfected not God himself who already is eternal. Man will wipe himself out if he does not listen to God yet you want HIM to listen to YOU ???
Human understanding has got life back to front !:yes:

I can see that I'm wasting my time trying to argue this logically. If I keep this up the only thing I'll accomplish is getting myself banned.

Tell you what, you go ahead and keep serving and worshiping your apathetic god and telling yourself and everyone else that humanity is the problem, all the while ignoring the fact that, if god is all-powerful, evil shouldn't make a difference.

As for me, I and the rest of the "evil" humans who actually care will continue working to solve the real problems of the world. I'm sure that, one day, if we are lucky enough to succeed, there will be more than enough people who will be all too happy to give god all of the credit.

 

[Scott C.]

So I'll ask again: If god has the power to stop the world's suffering then what the hell is he waiting for?

We all agree that there is human suffering. No need to display pictures that show how bad it can be. There are a number of possibilities, of which here are a few:

1. There is no God and therefore suffering just happens.
2. There is a God, who wants to stop suffering, but he does not have the ability. (God is not omnipotent).
3. There is a God who is omnipotent, but he's mean and enjoys either inflicting suffering or witholding help from those who suffer.
4. There is a God who is omnipotent and benevolent and has a wise and loving plan for his children, which includes a brief mortal existence, where there is suffering mixed with joy. (This is my favorite and what I believe).

The fact that suffering exists does not prove that either 1, 2, 3, or 4 is true or false. All of the ugly pictures of disease, starvation, war, natural disaster, and man's inhumanity to man add no value whatsoever to establishing anything, other than what we all know, there is suffering.

Do folks here really not comprehend (4) even if they don't believe it? I certainly comprehend 1, 2, and 3, even though I don't believe in them.

 

[The_Evelyonian]

We all agree that there is human suffering. No need to display pictures that show how bad it can be.

The pictures are meant to drive the point home. You can tell people all about suffering but the pictures help make it real to them. If anyone is disturbed by them well.....that's the point.

However, in the future I'll refrain from posting such images unless I feel it is absolutely necessary.

4. There is a God who is omnipotent and benevolent and has a wise and loving plan for his children, which includes a brief mortal existence, where there is suffering mixed with joy. (This is my favorite and what I believe).

Do folks here really not comprehend (4) even if they don't believe it? I certainly comprehend 1, 2, and 3, even though I don't believe in them.

I comprehend (4) very well. However I think that (4) is just simple nonsense that folks tell themselves in order to reconcile their views of a loving god with the world's suffering.

If people can accept (4) and rationalize it, good for them. Just don't expect me to do it.

To me, (4) does not paint a loving or benevolent god, it paints an evil one. Regardless of his intentions, he's still willfully choosing to let thousands of his children die every day from preventable causes. I don't see that as loving. I don't see it as moral. I don't see it as just. Any father who can just sit there and do nothing as his children die is a monster, pure and simple.

 

[logician]

There is certainly no rule that a supposed god be benevolent, it could be anything it wants.

 

[S-word]

There is certainly no rule that a supposed god be benevolent, it could be anything it wants.

He is a God who sends to the righteous and wicked alike, his blessings of rain and the growth of grain and fruit that it produces. He is also the God who sends his disasters of drought, bush fires, comet strikes etc, on the wicked and the righteous alike. But thank God that we have a deity in the future "The Son of Man," who knows what lies ahead, or rather, that which has occured in his dead past, and can warn those who are in tune with him, of the impending dangers.

 

[Beta]

So, it's okay that millions die every year and god apparently has better things to do? You just don't get it, if god exists and if he is omnipotent then he is consciously making the choice not to help, to allow more of his children to suffer and die every day. I was wrong, if god is like that then that doesn't just make him an arrogant, apathetic, unjust *******, it makes him a murderer too.
And what credit does god deserve? People are the ones doing all of the work. People are the ones trying to save the dying and end the world's misery. No, your god doesn't get any credit until he actually does something to earn it.
So, I was right, god wants people to kiss his *** first. Then, maybe, he'll help out. Man, even Dawkins didn't paint as evil a god as you have succeeded in doing.
I can see that I'm wasting my time trying to argue this logically. If I keep this up the only thing I'll accomplish is getting myself banned.
Tell you what, you go ahead and keep serving and worshiping your apathetic god and telling yourself and everyone else that humanity is the problem, all the while ignoring the fact that, if god is all-powerful, evil shouldn't make a difference.

As for me, I and the rest of the "evil" humans who actually care will continue working to solve the real problems of the world. I'm sure that, one day, if we are lucky enough to succeed, there will be more than enough people who will be all too happy to give god all of the credit.

I certainly would NOT want you to be banned !!!
I believe that people should be allowed to get their feelings off their chest - short of inflicting pain, suffering or murder of course. which this thread is all about.
I take the blame for not explaining GOD to you properly but being a flawed simple Human I hope to be forgiven.
Perhaps you don't accept that God has already sacrificed for us his own beloved Son so we can be saved from evil so we can not in all honesty say that He is not lifting a finger to help us. How many of us would give up our child for mankind ???
Even with this great sacrifice God will yet do one more thing for us and that is to stop satan's influence on man for the next 1000 years and that will help many to see more clearly. We are almost at that point now. God can not break the time-limit set for man before the foundation of the world. If he did this world would be doomed and we could not be saved.

 

[Peacewise]

For an analogy that reveals the weakness of the "God is cruel" argument.
Within context, the assumption is that God is the Father of Humanity.

Does a human parent do their child's home work for them?
Seems cruel to not do their home work for them since the parent knows all the answers and can do it faster than the child can.
This highlights that to learn something worthwhile, one learns it for oneself, and if humanity wants to learn how to stop human suffering - which I assume God also wants us to do - then we must learn it for ourselves and not request that God do our homework.

 

[DeitySlayer]

For an analogy that reveals the weakness of the "God is cruel" argument.
Within context, the assumption is that God is the Father of Humanity.

Does a human parent do their child's home work for them?
Seems cruel to not do their home work for them since the parent knows all the answers and can do it faster than the child can.
This highlights that to learn something worthwhile, one learns it for oneself, and if humanity wants to learn how to stop human suffering - which I assume God also wants us to do - then we must learn it for ourselves and not request that God do our homework.

Unfortunately, no amount of homework is going to stop earthquakes, volcanoes, tidal waves, etc.

 

[Beta]

Unfortunately, no amount of homework is going to stop earthquakes, volcanoes, tidal waves, etc.

Ah , but it would in the long run.
When GOD prepared Eden it was just a small patch being made perfect. The intent was for MAN to learn to do the same world-wide.
Instead man decided to do things his own way , was evicted and allowed to get on with it. Has MANkind proven to make this world perfect ???
But we have people who think it's all GOD's fault and calling him every bad name they can think of - while poor little Humans are so innocent and blameless.
But in spite of human ignorance and stupidity GOD has stepped in to provide salvation. Does MAN recognize this OFFER God makes us ? Of course not - the majority are too hateful toward him , only a few see the benefits in the promises yet to be fulfilled

 

[McBell]

And the topic of this thread actually proves the mass belief in a higher power, call it God or whatever, it proves it.

And?
So you have proven that a whole bunch of people believe in god.
So what?

Why would one even argue the existence of something if the believe it is not real?

Because there are those like yourself trying to convince those who do not believe that they are wrong and that something they have absolutely no empirical evidence for does exist.

 

[McBell]

For an analogy that reveals the weakness of the "God is cruel" argument.
Within context, the assumption is that God is the Father of Humanity.

Does a human parent do their child's home work for them?
Seems cruel to not do their home work for them since the parent knows all the answers and can do it faster than the child can.
This highlights that to learn something worthwhile, one learns it for oneself, and if humanity wants to learn how to stop human suffering - which I assume God also wants us to do - then we must learn it for ourselves and not request that God do our homework.

Well, the second you introduce me to an all knowing, all powerful parent....

 

[McBell]

Ah , but it would in the long run.
When GOD prepared Eden it was just a small patch being made perfect. The intent was for MAN to learn to do the same world-wide.
Instead man decided to do things his own way , was evicted and allowed to get on with it. Has MANkind proven to make this world perfect ???
But we have people who think it's all GOD's fault and calling him every bad name they can think of - while poor little Humans are so innocent and blameless.
But in spite of human ignorance and stupidity GOD has stepped in to provide salvation. Does MAN recognize this OFFER God makes us ? Of course not - the majority are too hateful toward him , only a few see the benefits in the promises yet to be fulfilled

Do you really want to get started on how God intentionally set man up to fail in the Garden of Eden?

 

[Beta]

Do you really want to get started on how God intentionally set man up to fail in the Garden of Eden?

Heard it all before my dear and .....
it makes not the slightest difference !

 

[McBell]

Heard it all before my dear and .....
it makes not the slightest difference !

I figured you wouldn't.

 

[S-word]

Well, the second you introduce me to an all knowing, all powerful parent....

Then look within yourself Mestemia, look within. For that which has become "Who You Are" was In the very beginning before this three dimensional space/time came into existence. Whatever was in the beginning of this three dimensional world, has become "Who You Are," in its eternal process of evolution, by gathering to itself all the spirits/information gathered from all you ancestors, human and pre-human, that it had become in its evolution to become who you are.

That which is the compilation of all the information gathered through the senses of all your ancestors from all time, which is the true "Who You Are," is connected to its origin by an eternal genetic thread of life, it has never died and it can never die.

You can either be an obedient servant to and an extension of the eternal, and become the heir to its throne of godhead in the eternal genetic line of that eternal one, who dwells within the inner most sanctuary of your body, which is its tempory tabernacle as it awaits its new Temple, which will evolve from the body of mankind (Unless of course you seem to believe that mankind is the end of the evolutionary process).

You have seen the first Adam, which is the body of mankind and you have borne his image, but have you seen the second Adam that appeared to Saul on the road to Damascus in his new and glorious blinding body of light, and who identified himself, not as some god, but as "Jesus of Nazareth, He, who we once knew as a human being? And will you also inherit a portion of the immortal body of he whose spiritual body is poured out as fire on all who believed his words as spoken through his obedient servant Jesus, who came in the name of the Lord and spoke not one word on his own authority, but only that which he was commanded to say, by the only exception of all mankind to have endured to the very end, who was able to reveal himself to us through his obedient servant.